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just bought monitors that only go down to 56Hz Studio Monitors
Old 13th September 2011
  #31
DAH
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At my mixing spot HS80m put out 40 Hz flat to 1k reference.
Old 13th September 2011
  #32
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Originally Posted by DAH View Post
At my mixing spot HS80m put out 40 Hz flat to 1k reference.
what?
Old 13th September 2011
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by realist22 View Post
what?
down to 40Hz linear to the rest of the spectrum.
40 Hz ----------------------10kHz - like this
Old 13th September 2011
  #34
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Before you go buy other ones why don't you try using these a bit more and find it from experience rather than text it it actually won't work for you.

That said I have heard the HS80s and I did like them.

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Old 13th September 2011
  #35
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You are better off with full range speakers and room treatment over a cheap sub. It all comes down to translation which is how your room and speakers interact- frequency response of the speakers is the least of concern.
Old 13th September 2011
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben F View Post
You are better off with full range speakers and room treatment over a cheap sub. It all comes down to translation which is how your room and speakers interact- frequency response of the speakers is the least of concern.
true. I'm going to return these get yamah hs80 and treet my room. i wonder how much of a difference room treatment makes
Old 13th September 2011
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by realist22 View Post
true. I'm going to return these get yamah hs80 and treet my room. i wonder how much of a difference room treatment makes
The difference treatment will make depends on a number of things, chief among them being how bad your room is currently and how much you invest in the treatment process.

I treated my music room, but after a week or so wasn't happy with the way it looked so I ended up taking it all down. When I get unlazy enough to pay someone to come up with a very visually pleasing design while still retaining function I'll treat it again.
Old 13th September 2011
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sftd View Post
The difference treatment will make depends on a number of things, chief among them being how bad your room is currently and how much you invest in the treatment process.

I treated my music room, but after a week or so wasn't happy with the way it looked so I ended up taking it all down. When I get unlazy enough to pay someone to come up with a very visually pleasing design while still retaining function I'll treat it again.
really. so right now your room is untreated?
Old 13th September 2011
  #39
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treat your room like your wife heh
Old 13th September 2011
  #40
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get some good headphones. you can find decent ones that have a frequency response down to 25hz or so.

it's the best compromise until you have the thousands of dollars to treat your room and invest in decent monitors.
Old 13th September 2011
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by realist22 View Post
really. so right now your room is untreated?
Yes its completely untreated at the moment.
Old 13th September 2011
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atma View Post
get some good headphones. you can find decent ones that have a frequency response down to 25hz or so.

it's the best compromise until you have the thousands of dollars to treat your room and invest in decent monitors.
yes its a good idea. but after like an hour of using headphones my ears don't feel good. not sure if this is the case with everyone. but i just can't continue using them they are not studio headphones.
Old 13th September 2011
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Augsy View Post
If you spent $400 on the alesis speakers, and your willing to spend another $200 on the sub, thats $600. For $100 more you could get the yamahas.

Your audio interface and your monitors are the most important part of the studio, I would spend what you can on those.
Room acoustics are more important than both of those things.
Old 13th September 2011
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Count_Ecilam View Post
As for headphones, you're not going to hear the bass accurately because it takes way more distance between the drivers and your ears to complete one cycle of a low bass frequency. You might get a sense for what's happening down there, but it's not going to be "accurate." It's just physics.
Please explain this. If you need to be at a distance of a full wavelength of a given frequency to accurately hear it, when using headphones we would only hear frequencies which have a wavelength shorter than about 2cm. Roughly 17kHz.

Nearfield monitors have a recommended listening distance of around 1m or so. Are you saying that in an open space with no boundaries we would only hear frequencies of 344Hz and above when sat at this distance from the speakers?

Or if we put our ear next to a sub in open space we would hear nothing? It's not like the frequency only becomes audible after it has completed a full cycle. Or is it?
Old 13th September 2011
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sftd View Post
Before you go buy other ones why don't you try using these a bit more and find it from experience rather than text it it actually won't work for you.
+1000000!

You wont get anything out of buying bigger monitors unless you have done some very serious room treatment. And even if you treat your room the 40-50hz zone is freaking hard to do anything about. It requires very very dense and big absorbers. I have some very large bass traps in my room and they dont really do anything to those frequencies.

Keep your monitors and get some good headphones and make some music.
Old 13th September 2011
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAH View Post
At my mixing spot HS80m put out 40 Hz flat to 1k reference.
That makes no sense....1k reference?
You would have to sweep your monitors with a reference mic 1m on axis to the cone and plot that to find out how flat 40hz is.
Using 1khz only means its flat...
Besides all speakers roll off by a certain amount of db at each end of the spectrum. Some speakers can be down as much as -20db at 30-40hz!
And even expensive monitors can really only reproduce a spectrum flat by about +/- 0.5db across the board, so there is a whole lot more going on there than you think...look at the published frequency response graphs if you want to see how flat they really are, not some spec number like 40hz-22khz.
And most low end so called monitors never even publish those graphs...
Old 13th September 2011
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HomeProducer View Post
treat your room like your wife heh
Lol. You mean to say put padding all over her so she stays quiet? Sounds good
Old 13th September 2011
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dankelly View Post
Please explain this. If you need to be at a distance of a full wavelength of a given frequency to accurately hear it, when using headphones we would only hear frequencies which have a wavelength shorter than about 2cm. Roughly 17kHz.

Nearfield monitors have a recommended listening distance of around 1m or so. Are you saying that in an open space with no boundaries we would only hear frequencies of 344Hz and above when sat at this distance from the speakers?

Or if we put our ear next to a sub in open space we would hear nothing? It's not like the frequency only becomes audible after it has completed a full cycle. Or is it?
After thinking about this some more, looking through the Bob Katz book and looking through some GS pages, I have to say, you are correct. It seems I pointed out a misconception of my own. I retract. Cheers!
Old 13th September 2011
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mowmow View Post
I wouldn't recommend subs because it isn't easy to set up accurately IMHO.
I read about this which was written by mastering engineer.
I agree with the above statement, however a sub can be great for listening in general, making synth sounds and jamming.

They can easily be too much for an apartment/townhouse dweller. That's how I ended up with my sub, guy sold them because every time he switched them on his neighbors complained, so he put it up fir sale on Craigslist.

I got the KRK 10s sub used (barely) for $190.00 keep your eyes out for used ones on Craigslist, eBay, local Guitar Centers, etc.

I did find the lowest setting on it rumbles my walls at home, and I'm moving before the end of year so I have not done any treatment where I'm currently at, that will be a must in the new place. I do NOT use it when mixing - yet.
Old 13th September 2011
  #50
DAH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djmukilteo View Post
That makes no sense....1k reference?
You would have to sweep your monitors with a reference mic 1m on axis to the cone and plot that to find out how flat 40hz is.
Using 1khz only means its flat...
Besides all speakers roll off by a certain amount of db at each end of the spectrum. Some speakers can be down as much as -20db at 30-40hz!
And even expensive monitors can really only reproduce a spectrum flat by about +/- 0.5db across the board, so there is a whole lot more going on there than you think...look at the published frequency response graphs if you want to see how flat they really are, not some spec number like 40hz-22khz.
And most low end so called monitors never even publish those graphs...
Sorry for being not clear in the first post, but then you were either to lazy or whatnot to read my second post.
I can say
1 Fu*k "frequency graphs" per se as they do not represent to even a smallest degree the interaction, the sum of a given brand's speaker pair with a given room IN A GIVEN MIX POSITION.
2 The results I am talking about were gathered by using pink noise signal and an omni small diaphragm condenser microphone , and the only reason 1k was mentioned as and is the reference because it is amidst the human-perceivable frequency range so it is reference not just for the f of it.
3 Who ever was meaning FLAT in terms of +-0 dB flat? Of course there is and must be some tolerance like +-3 db (BTW a great result even for a pro studio), and
You sound like a man who just read some general info on acoustics and speakers while I actually took measurements after reading it, so please do not be preaching with that bass roll-off and +-0.5 dB anechoic chamber measurements of speakers.
What I meant was the FR of my HS80m in the mix spot is +- 4-5 dB from about 40 Hz to 10 kHz with a couple of 130 and 170 Hz tight dips.
Old 13th September 2011
  #51
DAH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben F View Post
You are better off with full range speakers and room treatment over a cheap sub. It all comes down to translation which is how your room and speakers interact- frequency response of the speakers is the least of concern.
+100
Old 13th September 2011
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by realist22 View Post
cheers i was unaware of that i thought that it won't play anything below that frequency. so this means that monitors with a frequency range below 56hz could play the frequencies better.
Before shelling out some cash, test them out. When listening to them do you feel they really lack bottom end for your mix to translate. Also try pumping some low sine waves, expect a rolloff from 56Hz but I doubt it's a very steep cutoff.

What I'm wondering as I'm in the market for some new monitors as well, is there a standard on how the freq response is defined ? Do Alesis feel there's a rolloff starting at 56Hz or is it that at 56Hz it's at -10dB or some other standard? Because if manufacturers don't follow the same rule and don't clearly define it (I just looked through Alesis' documentation and they don't state it) it's basically worthless info.
Old 13th September 2011
  #53
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Definitly test them out and make your decision soon. If you feel they don't pump out enough low end then you are better off exchanging them now(or before your return policy is up) for a better pair of full range monitors, rather than adding a cheap sub into the equation.
Old 13th September 2011
  #54
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If you are sitting in a bass node, it won't matter how low your speakers go, the frequencies will cancel out at your listening position. Put on some bassy music at a medium volume & move around your room. Notice that the bass is all hyped when you stand in the corners or next to the back wall. Now walk over to your listening position. Does the bass go away? Yeah, that. That's a function of your room, not your speakers. Get that sorted before you spend money on monitors that go lower.

A while ago I took some good advice and got my room in shape before selecting new monitors. Realized my old monitors weren't too bad once I got room stuff worked out & got a couple more years out of them.

Take a gander over at the Acoustics & Studio Building forums.
Old 13th September 2011
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by louis.lbnc View Post
Before shelling out some cash, test them out. When listening to them do you feel they really lack bottom end for your mix to translate. Also try pumping some low sine waves, expect a rolloff from 56Hz but I doubt it's a very steep cutoff.

What I'm wondering as I'm in the market for some new monitors as well, is there a standard on how the freq response is defined ? Do Alesis feel there's a rolloff starting at 56Hz or is it that at 56Hz it's at -10dB or some other standard? Because if manufacturers don't follow the same rule and don't clearly define it (I just looked through Alesis' documentation and they don't state it) it's basically worthless info.
I *think*, and please don't quote me on this, but I think it's supposed to be -3dB at the frequency listed. I don't remember if I read this before or I'm making it up. The -3dB breakpoint is a reference point with filters. Somebody more knowledgeable can chime in and correct me if I'm wrong.
Old 14th September 2011
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dankelly View Post
Please explain this. If you need to be at a distance of a full wavelength of a given frequency to accurately hear it, when using headphones we would only hear frequencies which have a wavelength shorter than about 2cm. Roughly 17kHz.

Nearfield monitors have a recommended listening distance of around 1m or so. Are you saying that in an open space with no boundaries we would only hear frequencies of 344Hz and above when sat at this distance from the speakers?

Or if we put our ear next to a sub in open space we would hear nothing? It's not like the frequency only becomes audible after it has completed a full cycle. Or is it?
Thanks for calling out these myths.
Old 14th September 2011
  #57
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by louis.lbnc View Post
What I'm wondering as I'm in the market for some new monitors as well, is there a standard on how the freq response is defined ?
There may be standards, but there is no guarantee that any manufacturer actually follows them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by louis.lbnc View Post
Do Alesis feel there's a rolloff starting at 56Hz or is it that at 56Hz it's at -10dB or some other standard?
A well-designed and tested speaker would be flat (within some publicly-stated tolerance of +/- x dB) across a stated frequency range and would have smooth roll-off in response below and above the stated frequency range. If that were true for the Alesis and x = 10, the response at 56 Hz would be 10 dB down compared with the response at some mid frequency. But it could equally mean that the response has bizarre peaks and troughs (with a total range of 10 dB) all through the stated frequency range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by louis.lbnc View Post
Because if manufacturers don't follow the same rule and don't clearly define it (I just looked through Alesis' documentation and they don't state it) it's basically worthless info.
Of the speakers mentioned on this thread so far*, I found that only KRK states a tolerance (+/- 1.5 dB) for their frequency response, and none of the manufacturers provide a plot of the frequency response. So the values quoted in the manufacturer's specifications are completely arbitrary.

To be confident of the response of your speakers in your room, you would have to make the measurements that DAH described in an earlier post.

*Qualification: There may well be independent data available somewhere for the Yamaha NS10, because it has been so widely used.
Old 14th September 2011
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Hanes View Post

*Qualification: There may well be independent data available somewhere for the Yamaha NS10, because it has been so widely used.
Well, \the NS10 was many years ago and some still swear by it. But it was really about the wide universal use of that speaker. So you could go to any studio and have a reference point. Keep in mind that the NS10 was introduced long before everyone had a studio in his or her house. Most of these recording studios also had Auratones (horror tones) arguably the worst sounding speaker on the planet, but a perfect reference point for a car radio or TV set. They would also have a large format pair as well often a three way JBL or ALtec. And yes, "live end dead end" design in the control room with attention to acoustics. So, the Yamaha is much more about familiarity than it is about being a great monitor.
Old 14th September 2011
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAH View Post
Sorry for being not clear in the first post, but then you were either to lazy or whatnot to read my second post.
I can say
1 Fu*k "frequency graphs" per se as they do not represent to even a smallest degree the interaction, the sum of a given brand's speaker pair with a given room IN A GIVEN MIX POSITION.
2 The results I am talking about were gathered by using pink noise signal and an omni small diaphragm condenser microphone , and the only reason 1k was mentioned as and is the reference because it is amidst the human-perceivable frequency range so it is reference not just for the f of it.
3 Who ever was meaning FLAT in terms of +-0 dB flat? Of course there is and must be some tolerance like +-3 db (BTW a great result even for a pro studio), and
You sound like a man who just read some general info on acoustics and speakers while I actually took measurements after reading it, so please do not be preaching with that bass roll-off and +-0.5 dB anechoic chamber measurements of speakers.
What I meant was the FR of my HS80m in the mix spot is +- 4-5 dB from about 40 Hz to 10 kHz with a couple of 130 and 170 Hz tight dips.
Whatever
Old 14th September 2011
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djmukilteo View Post
Whatever
Actually, everything that Dah has said is pretty much by the book insofar as measurement and testing is concerned and absolutely is not facepalm material. What he's described is fairly standard procedure for pro control rooms. In fact, I would be very surprised if a legitimate studio didn't pink the control room in a manner similar to what Dah describes, and failure to do so in a facility describing itself as a "pro studio" reeks of amateur hour.
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