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Synth Doubler tip Keyboard Synthesizers
Old 9th September 2011
  #1
Gear Head
 
silmutine's Avatar
 

Synth Doubler tip

Hi there,

I'm currently recording synths for my own project. I'm using a Juno 106.

What I want to do is quite simple: usually, I send MIDI from PT to my Juno 106 and record what it plays.

I would like to record two takes of each part, to have the possibility to hard pan Left and Right each. As you would often do for guitars. And the problem is, when I record my 2nd take (remember, notes sent from PT to Juno via Midi), I obtain some phase (?) issues between the two takes: when panning them hard left & right, they aren't staying properly left and right, on some notes / moments, they're like "joining" to the middle because I think even if my Juno is analog gear, with MIDI generated parts, sometimes the results between the two takes are very very similar, and then it's like if I had duplicated the first take, and not double it. And so I have sound field issues.

Do you guys have any tips I can apply to have two nice doubles of a part with nearly the same sound I can pan hard? I've tried playin' with a little LFO variation between the takes but not very good results.

Any advices appreciated :-)

Cheers

S
Old 9th September 2011
  #2
Lives for gear
 
Dave Peck's Avatar
 

1. Change the patch settings slightly for the second take (slightly different cutoff, slightly different tuning, etc.). Or what the heck, change them a LOT.

2. Alter the MIDI note data slightly for the second take. A really good way to do this is to use 100% tight quantizing for one take, so the notes are all right on the beat, and use sloppier timing for the second take. Don't quantize it at all (if your playing is decent) or only quantize it 40% - 60% to clean it up slightly.
Old 9th September 2011
  #3
Gear Head
 

you're recording each pass Mono into PT I'm assuming ?

dont record them stereo if you're going to double and hard pan

you're only wasting hd space and processing bandwidth
Old 9th September 2011
  #4
Lives for gear
 

Have you delayed one track by about 11 ms or so to see if the phasing issues goes away? If not, change the microtuning of one by about 3 or 4 cycles to see what that does.
Old 9th September 2011
  #5
Gear Head
 
silmutine's Avatar
 

To Dave Peck: thanks a lot for your ideas and tips, very appreciated, I'll try this this way :-)

To arrowsmith: Actually I'm recording in stereo. Is this a bad thing if I'm going to hard pan things or is it just a hd space consideration? The thing is, I wont be the mixer of the stuff, and I'd like the mixer to have all the options he wants for the mix: just choose one synth and put it in the middle, take one synth and its double and hard pan it, etc... That's why I record stereo. Could u tell me if you think it's not a good idea even with this considerations?

To Monsieur_R: not already tried this 11ms delay, actually I use it when I duplicate a track I want to hard pan but that's a good idea to apply this trick here! What do you mean by "change the microtuning of one by about 3 or 4 cycles"? Are talking about the pitch? (sorry, I'm french so sometimes it's hard to understand). What do you mean by a cycle?

Anyway, thanks a lot for your tips guys :-)
Old 10th September 2011
  #6
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Mefistophelees's Avatar
The duplicate and delay trick should do what you want but you'll need to start with a single mono track.

Another way as the others have suggested, is to detune the second part, you can also change the EQ slightly for each side.

In all cases you start with mono tracks.
Old 10th September 2011
  #7
Gear Nut
 

change them slightly is good advice

however don't take this too strictly. Many times parts don't need to be duplicated. There are also options as stereo spreading plugins, or use of reverbs for the spread sensations, etc

If you must double, there are A LOT of recordings from top producers with phase cancellations problems. So really go by your ears, if sounds good and there is some phase issues, its not necessarily a problem. If it sounds good, its good.
Old 10th September 2011
  #8
Lives for gear
The real trick is to layer a Yamaha FM synth behind the Juno and leave the Juno alone and tweak the Yamaha on between channels.

Put them on the same MIDI channel and just mix the Yamaha a little behind the Juno.
Old 10th September 2011
  #9
Gear Head
 
silmutine's Avatar
 

Thank you guys for your help. I appreciate it

BTW, am I wrong by sayin' there isn't any way to make a constant and slightly detune of the Juno? For example I'd like to record a Bass tuned normally, and then record the same bass an octave up and a little bit detuned lower.

I use a little bit LFO for this but it's not constant...
Old 10th September 2011
  #10
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jupiter8's Avatar
 

I'm going to assume you record with the chorus on ('cause it's awesome) and that it doesn't take to well being summed to mono (because that's what it sounds like to me).
Old 10th September 2011
  #11
Gear Head
 
silmutine's Avatar
 

For sure when I record with Chorus I always record stereo :-) (And yes I agree it's awesome!)
Old 10th September 2011
  #12
Gear Head
 
silmutine's Avatar
 

But currently I'm recording non chorused material like saw Basses etc and want to obtain a sort of unison effect: One part Down and same sound an Octave Up slightly and constantly detuned down - wondering if there's any way to obtain on the juno itself, or if I have to do this in PT (pitch plugin)
Old 10th September 2011
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silmutine View Post
BTW, am I wrong by sayin' there isn't any way to make a constant and slightly detune of the Juno? For example I'd like to record a Bass tuned normally, and then record the same bass an octave up and a little bit detuned lower
There is a tuning pot for the Juno at the rear - easy to adjust the pitch for that kind of tricks.
Old 10th September 2011
  #14
Gear Head
 
silmutine's Avatar
 

I feel dumb. Lol. Thanks a lot! I only have a Juno for a few days and didn't see this :-)
Old 10th September 2011
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silmutine View Post

To Monsieur_R: not already tried this 11ms delay, actually I use it when I duplicate a track I want to hard pan but that's a good idea to apply this trick here! What do you mean by "change the microtuning of one by about 3 or 4 cycles"? Are talking about the pitch? (sorry, I'm french so sometimes it's hard to understand). What do you mean by a cycle?

Anyway, thanks a lot for your tips guys :-)
Vive la France ! Au moins, si tu nous offrais un morceau de ta musique ici, nous serions capable de décider nous-mêmes s'il y avait un vrai problème d'annulation sonique.

Yes I was talking about the pitch. There are 50 cents per semitone. I don't understand all the technical stuff myself, but 3 or 4 cents isn't so noticeable to be out of tune, but definitely enough to phatten it up.

Another thing you can do is to record the same track twice, but use a high pass filter on the second track so only the overtones are coming through. Might be nice.

There are tonnes of ways of phattening up a sound via doubling, and would love to hear how it sounds!

D'un francophile à un français je te souhaite un superbe weekend.
Old 13th September 2011
  #16
Gear Head
 
silmutine's Avatar
 

Ton Français est juste parfait!

Oui, 3 à 4 cents est vraiment intéressant ;-)

Merci pour ces conseils.

Cheers from the french riviera :-)
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