The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Synths for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Tangerine Dream Basslines? How'd they do it?
Old 8th September 2011
  #1
Lives for gear
 
verve92's Avatar
 

Tangerine Dream Basslines? How'd they do it?

Is there any modern instrument that can come close to these sounds? Like the ones heard in Phaedra and Rubycon? Listen below if you need to:

Tangerine Dream Rubycon Part 2 - YouTube
If not engaged- skip to 4:40.
Totally amazing sounds!
Could that be an ARP 2600??
Are they arpeggios or played note by note by hand?
Old 8th September 2011
  #2
Lives for gear
 
toolstudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by verve92 View Post
Is there any modern instrument that can come close to these sounds? Like the ones heard in Phaedra and Rubycon? Listen below if you need to:

Tangerine Dream Rubycon Part 2 - YouTube
If not engaged- skip to 4:40.
Totally amazing sounds!
Could that be an ARP 2600??
Are they arpeggios or played note by note by hand?
Moog Modular with 960 sequencers, or/and maybe project electronic modular + sequencer
(not sure if they already had the PE with rubycon)

You will get that with a Minimoog pretty easy and don't forget to add the delay to let it groove ...

wolfgang
Old 8th September 2011
  #3
Deleted User
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by verve92 View Post
Is there any modern instrument that can come close to these sounds? Like the ones heard in Phaedra and Rubycon? Listen below if you need to:

Tangerine Dream Rubycon Part 2 - YouTube
If not engaged- skip to 4:40.
Totally amazing sounds!
Could that be an ARP 2600??
Are they arpeggios or played note by note by hand?
The sequences/arpeggios were created by Chris Franke on his moog modular system along with the 960 sequencers. During the recording of Rubycon part-2 the manor was experiencing power problems and the power fluctuations were making the moog play alsorts of random sequences and triggering random voltages.

Franke's modular system was already becoming customised, he had a digital controller for the sequencers (A PXR-5 rhythm controller - in reality it was just a modified EKO computerhythm that he used to provide various triggering of the sequencers). Later on Wolfgang Palm of PPG began to design and build along with TD more customised equipment to their specifications.

Its all explained in the making of Rubycon by Karl Dallas with Chris Franke providing a step-by-step explanation.

To get Bass sounds of a similar nature, i would suggest a Minimoog or a Voyager, or even a modular system. It can be done with just about any synthesizer like a VA using just the basic waveforms. Most of TD's basslines and sequences were made using Square and Pulse waves with PWM.
Old 8th September 2011
  #4
Lives for gear
 
Jauqq's Avatar
 

Anyone know what they used for sequencer lines on early 80's tracks? For example the sequencer lines on Mojave Plan, Logos or Poland?
Some of Mojave Plan sounds like a simple one osc synth. I'm thinking a Pro-One would be a good synth for these types of sequencer line sounds?

skip to 3.20 onwards....
Old 9th September 2011
  #5
Lives for gear
 
verve92's Avatar
 

Interesting.......

Thanx all for the brilliant facts on old synths. You guys are sharp! I'm just gathering as much info as possible as a newbie to synth after playing all styles guitar and drums for the last 25 years.
TD is fascinating in that they have complete control of texture. For example the sequences on the Thief soundtrack's "Diamond Diary" are much harder. Is this a result of mixing or different equipment or both. Less delay and reverb obviously
Expect many more questions a ignorant as they may be beginning here:

1) Is the "Making of Rubycon" a video or book and is it still available? Not that I'll ever see this equipment, but artists ought be curious. This is one of the recordings that inspired me to buy my first synth at 39 years of age.

2) Can someone tell me how to get the large square still of Youtube videos rather than just the underlined hyperlink?
Old 9th September 2011
  #6
Lives for gear
 

Hyperborea is one of my favs....those minimoog sounds don't impress me much as much as their soundscape projects that sound very OPEN. I've heard tons of TD and the early work is much better than the late 80's-2000+.... It seems as if technology was not on their side. They were actually better when they were limited.....wierd. I do understand it though.

Part of Mojave was even recycled in a different song...but I don't recall the name.

One big mistake of TD was reuse of alot of bell sounds they had around 1986-89... I'm like...dang...can't they use a different bell sound. It's in Roaring of the Bliss. Youtube that if you wanna hear the bell...also..the drums in that song are terribly bland and unemotional. I think that's why it was only on that CD. I liked that song at first...now I listen back...and think....bland! Not sure why...because I still like the old classics......Love on a Train, Thief, Wavelength
Old 9th September 2011
  #7
Gear Maniac
 
suitandtieguy's Avatar
 

the bass sequence in Rubycon part 1, the middle section, is a just a nice pluck sound on the Moog modular system controlled by one 960 sequencer.

he's using one of the first two rows to control the pitch, and the third row is set to 0v on 4 stages but 1v on four consecutive stages and when the rhythm goes from 6/8 to 2/4 he's hitting the "third row to timing" switch.

late in the section he un-skips 2 of the stages letting all 8 notes play. at this point "third row to timing" is not engaged. this is around the 14 minute mark.

one of my favourite parts of the track is how there's CP-70 through a Leslie on fast going forwards, either getting played or strummed, and then the backwards clean piano part that was overdubbed.

i recreated the BbM-Cm chord hit in my studio and use it live sometimes with all the permutations of the 960 sequence i've also programmed into the x0xb0x:

http://suitandtieguy.com/sounds/2005...Acid%20Mix.mp3

after Rubycon the gear became more customised, but even by the point of that album he had his modular modified so the VCOs had switches to tune them up by a minor 3rd, 4th, or 5th and another pair of switches to route the outputs directly to the CP3 mixers below.
Old 9th September 2011
  #8
Lives for gear
 
Teknobeam's Avatar
 

Start with a giant Moog modular....then detune two oscillators....
Old 9th September 2011
  #9
Lives for gear
 
verve92's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by suitandtieguy View Post
the bass sequence in Rubycon part 1, the middle section, is a just a nice pluck sound on the Moog modular system controlled by one 960 sequencer.

he's using one of the first two rows to control the pitch, and the third row is set to 0v on 4 stages but 1v on four consecutive stages and when the rhythm goes from 6/8 to 2/4 he's hitting the "third row to timing" switch.

late in the section he un-skips 2 of the stages letting all 8 notes play. at this point "third row to timing" is not engaged. this is around the 14 minute mark.

one of my favourite parts of the track is how there's CP-70 through a Leslie on fast going forwards, either getting played or strummed, and then the backwards clean piano part that was overdubbed.

i recreated the BbM-Cm chord hit in my studio and use it live sometimes with all the permutations of the 960 sequence i've also programmed into the x0xb0x:

http://suitandtieguy.com/sounds/2005...Acid%20Mix.mp3

after Rubycon the gear became more customised, but even by the point of that album he had his modular modified so the VCOs had switches to tune them up by a minor 3rd, 4th, or 5th and another pair of switches to route the outputs directly to the CP3 mixers below.
Fascinating. In Rubycon 2 are they using a low regeneration delay to make 4 note arps sound like 8?
ALSO how do youn like the x0xb0x ANY differences from the 303? How the glide? I think this is on my list. If Roland were smart they'd re0issue the 303 and make a KILLING. Save the crappy digital version they had out a few years ago.
Old 9th September 2011
  #10
Deleted User
Guest
This is the only known video of TD in the Manor Studio in January 1975 during the Rubycon recording sessions.




Here is a section of the text from those texts by Karl Dallas with Chris Franke explaining Rubycon.

Rubycon

Part I
The beginning is Baumann on Fender Rhodes piano, "playing very lonely notes", with bell-like Moog tones from Franke, joined by an oboe sound from Froese's Mellotron. All three lines come closer and closer together, but there are quiet spaces between the notes. "It's the first time we have put breaks between the notes, but it's very important, so you can get your brain clear for what's coming." A very high melody line on Franke's Moog comes over the long, slow notes, is joined by tapes of mixed voices on the Mellotron with glissandi from Baumann. The Moog melody returns and Froese changes to strings tapes for a brief section of trumpet-like tune and strings.

"Peter has some very nice voltage-controlled bits with the synthi. Sometimes he comes very near with his glissandi, through the well tempered melody line. I like it very much if there are two scales of notes together -- a well-tempered scale and a not-tempered scale producing, like birds, quarter notes, like Schoenberg. "This part gives me the impression of a very big river, at the end of the river coming into a big sea, the ocean. It's very liquid." Wind noise is followed by a cymbal-like tone created by a cluster of 20 or 30 notes very close together and a very low bass, with feelings of fuzz in it. "It's a little meditation tone." After a rhythm sequence, Froese plays the main theme on the strings followed by a remarkable duet between Baumann's Fender Rhodes and Froese's oboe-tapes, in which they swap phrases and halfphrases. The rhythm continues, very ostinato, "a repetitive rhythm like the Negroes make it, very often", Baumann switches to organ and the duet continues.

The rhythm doubles and Franke adds an overdubbed piano tape loop: a backwards tape is joined to a forwards tape so that the sound comes to its attack and then dies away. The rhythm becomes very complex, with Moog tones and snare-drum sounds, plus overdubbed piano, "prepared" with pieces of wood stuck between the strings to give a more percussive effect. Over this Froese plays chords and Baumann plays a very high melody line on organ. A change in the rhythm is overlaid by clashing sounds from Baumann's voltage controlled oscillator, played over a very fast-running Leslie speaker and very long echo delay. Froese plays a reprise of the original oboe melody while the decay of the snare drum sound becomes longer and longer so that the beat disappears. Later Baumann plays grand piano over a Leslie. "In this piece I think all the melodies, rhythms and all the sounds are much, much more complex and much better than on Phaedra. I think it is a step forward, this record." The piece ends with a long sitar-like sound created by scraping the strings of a grand piano with a piece of metal, recording it, cutting off the attack at the beginning of the note, and playing it back on multi-track at different speeds, giving several different pitches. The rhythm becomes simpler and simpler, moving from three to two to one single tone, and the piano loops are faded across to each other, making chords, slowly shifting.

Part II
"The second side is beginning with the sound of contemporary music, a mixture of a gong sound and very complex glissandi sounds made with several synthis, about seven different glissandi, three synchronised on the Moog which is very easy to do, and other made with other generators going up and down at different speeds and between different intervals. So it is like the pile of a carpet, a carpet of glissandi. "I like this beginning because it is very different from everything we've made before. It is really a piece of timbre music with lines so close together that you cannot separate them." The glissandi section is followed by Moog sounds recorded on Mellotron tapes and played by Froese. Baumann's Leslie organ goes to a fundamental major C chord which is picked up by a very fast, almost subsonic bass rhythm. The very percussive rhythm is in fact two sequencers, and Franke is switching from one to the other, changing notes in each sequencer as he changes. "I make accents on several notes by playing the filter which makes the timbre higher."

Over "clouds of chords" on the Mellotron and Leslie organ and synthi and Moog rhythm, Froese overdubs a backwards tape of guitar played with echo. The rhythm has changed to a deep heartbeat tempo, which fades and then returns at a higher pitch, more prominently, under Baumann's fast, staccato organ. A twittering sound is created by oscillators controlling other oscillators. "It is frequency modulation, controlling one tone with the wave of another. That's what the birds can do with their voice, changing the tone so quickly that you get a noise sound from it." The side moves towards its end with concrete sounds of sea recorded on the South coast of England, played on two tape machines with varying speeds so there is phasing, changing the location of the sound.

"This technique is important for the work that Edgar did with the artificial head on his solo album, 'Aqua', because with phasing you can change where the sound comes from, not only from side to side, like ordinary stereo, but also from front to back. "You have only two channels for hearing, so with stereo you can hear everything. Quadraphonics is only a game. It's not really good, only pseudo-space." The piece ends with a relaxed sequence for three organs and flute Mellotron, long, gentle chords with the flute flying at almost stratospheric level, fading like the flute in Debussy's "Afternoon of a Faun".

"This is music that we would like to perform in churches, all evening, without rhythms. Maybe each one of us is playing in a different place in the church, and the natural reverb makes it a very smooth sound. "We bought a generator to make power so that we can make that music outside, in total silence, in forests maybe."
Old 9th September 2011
  #11
Lives for gear
 
teamsterjim's Avatar
Tangerine Dream, The Gate of Saturn Performance at the Lowry theatre Manchester 28/May/2011 - YouTube

According to the large LCD screens facing the audience they're using Creamware ASB's. The Moog and ARP emulations.
If you already have a decent controller you can save an ebay search for Klangboxes. They are the ASB's in a 1U version and go for 200 USD used.
Or just one of the ancient Scope DSP cards where the emualtion of the emulations are included on the soundcard.
They're great for guys who perform live. No preset load times or any of that indoor type of action, strictly realtime.
Old 9th September 2011
  #12
Lives for gear
I absolutely love 1970s TD bass and mid sequences.
I have tried to recreate these in some of my soft synths and it is certainly possible to get a nice chunky plucked bass suitable for such sequencer (or arpeggiator) duties. There really is no need for any elaborate modular synth to get the basic sound. As long as the synth has three oscillators with good filters and drive it is possible.

The main character of the pluck comes from a careful balance of LPF cutoff and filter envelope amount parameter mixed with appropriate filter and amp decay stage. This is the basic set up. Then, filter drive can be used to boost the body a bit and obviously oscillator waveforms and mix+octave settings are also very important.

If no modular sequencer is available, a good substitution is an arpeggiator set to 'As Played' mode, which can imitate the real-time aspect of hardware sequencers somewhat.
Old 9th September 2011
  #13
Lives for gear
 
Spectral Climax's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by verve92 View Post
Is there any modern instrument that can come close to these sounds? Like the ones heard in Phaedra and Rubycon? Listen below if you need to:

Tangerine Dream Rubycon Part 2 - YouTube
If not engaged- skip to 4:40.
Totally amazing sounds!
Could that be an ARP 2600??
Are they arpeggios or played note by note by hand?

It's the technique that counts in this occasion, not the instrument. I think they used some 960 Moog sequencers. Today you can achieve this much more easily with almost any software step sequencer and a good synthesizer.
Old 2nd October 2011
  #14
Gear Maniac
 
suitandtieguy's Avatar
 

so i came home from seeing Drive and it made me want to watch Thief (which i totally did.) the next day Joe rewrote the Time Divider firmware, so after we QA'd it i did this. it's only 2 minutes long but it's just supposed to demonstrate nailing a certain technique to my studio wall:

Old 2nd October 2011
  #15
Gear Head
 
tekkentool's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by verve92 View Post
Is there any modern instrument that can come close to these sounds? Like the ones heard in Phaedra and Rubycon? Listen below if you need to:
Uhh basically any subtractive synthesizer with a sequencer and some slap back delay?
Old 2nd October 2011
  #16
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by suitandtieguy View Post
so i came home from seeing Drive and it made me want to watch Thief (which i totally did.) the next day Joe rewrote the Time Divider firmware, so after we QA'd it i did this. it's only 2 minutes long but it's just supposed to demonstrate nailing a certain technique to my studio wall:

great!
Old 3rd October 2011
  #17
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by suitandtieguy View Post
the bass sequence in Rubycon part 1, the middle section, is a just a nice pluck sound on the Moog modular system controlled by one 960 sequencer.

he's using one of the first two rows to control the pitch, and the third row is set to 0v on 4 stages but 1v on four consecutive stages and when the rhythm goes from 6/8 to 2/4 he's hitting the "third row to timing" switch.

late in the section he un-skips 2 of the stages letting all 8 notes play. at this point "third row to timing" is not engaged. this is around the 14 minute mark.

one of my favourite parts of the track is how there's CP-70 through a Leslie on fast going forwards, either getting played or strummed, and then the backwards clean piano part that was overdubbed.

i recreated the BbM-Cm chord hit in my studio and use it live sometimes with all the permutations of the 960 sequence i've also programmed into the x0xb0x:

http://suitandtieguy.com/sounds/2005...Acid%20Mix.mp3

after Rubycon the gear became more customised, but even by the point of that album he had his modular modified so the VCOs had switches to tune them up by a minor 3rd, 4th, or 5th and another pair of switches to route the outputs directly to the CP3 mixers below.
Thanks for that
Old 6th October 2011
  #18
Lives for gear
 
verve92's Avatar
 

Sounds terrific!
Old 2nd December 2017
  #19
Here for the gear
 

Hi synth friends,

It is a pleasure to be here and learn so many curious facts about electronic music.
I am an electronic music creator and love Tangerine Dream and would like to know about some common sounds they have used on EXIT album.
I think they have moved to more digital staff and there is a voice like sound very thin and sinthetic which I appreciate. Also on Tangram there is a flute like sound that is very beautiful. Do you guys knows about them? Did they used a lot of presets sounds or did they customized all sounds? Any information will be great.
Thank you very much
Old 2nd December 2017
  #20
Lives for gear
 

Welcome to GS
Don't be too shy to create a new thread even if there is already one very old on kinda the same topic.

Moogs and delays, that is the secret to TD old sound.
Synapse Audio The Legend plus VOS NastyDLA mkII plus your DAW sequencer.

New TD sound ?
Whatever was available and fairly new when the album was released.
Old 2nd December 2017
  #21
When I was in college, I heard Exit for the first time. It was very inspiring to me. Before that, the only synth music I had heard was the stuff that made it into 80s rock, and then also Isao Tomita (also hugely inspiring). It wasn't until a year or so later that I came across Jan Hammer, JMJ, and others.

This is one of my attempts at an early TD-style (really just Berlin School sequence) track. It's pretty chill throughout, so not something that shows the TD/Schulze key-change/tempo-change that often happened later in their pieces.



For a sequencer, the little Korg SQ-1 is fantastic and dirt cheap. You don't necessarily need a huge expensive Moog-style sequencer. A pair of SQ-1 sequencers can go a long way.

For the main pluck bass sequence, I used MOS-Lab Moog modular clone modules. But I just yesterday got a Pioneer / DSI Toraiz-AS-1 and I can tell you that it can get surprisingly close. Presumably the Minitaur can as well.

Full list of equipment is in track description on YouTube.

Here's another video (not mine) which shows some basic and really fun Berlin School stuff using just two Korg Monotribes. He also has a how-to video



If you have budget, another awesome synth, often considered "Berlin School in a box" is the Elektron Analog 4. The sounds aren't the huge Moog 901 oscillators, but it does well on its own, and the sequencer is really good.

The challenge for most is often to get that "ratchet" effect. Some sequencers have that built in, but most do not. There are Moog-Unit modular modules that do this as well. Often what you can do is have your sequencer set to say 32 or 64 steps (if supported) using 16th, 32nd or shorter nots, and then space out the normal sequence as though it was on an 8 or 16 note grid. For the ratchet, you use the additional shorter steps in one section.

I did that in this track on the Analog 4. You can hear it starting around 1:27. IMO, it plays really well starting around 6:30. If you only listen to one part, listen from 6:00 through the end



Pete

PS: For info on who Major Atway was: Tangerine - Wikipedia :D
Old 2nd December 2017
  #22
BTW, the Behringer D, whenever it comes out, combined with an SQ-1 or similar, is likely to be really good for this kind of music.

Pete
Old 2nd December 2017
  #23
Lives for gear
 
Synth Buddha's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by alphaproject View Post
They were actually better when they were limited.....wierd.
Most people are.
Old 3rd December 2017
  #24
Deleted User
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
The challenge for most is often to get that "ratchet" effect. Some sequencers have that built in, but most do not. There are Moog-Unit modular modules that do this as well. Often what you can do is have your sequencer set to say 32 or 64 steps (if supported) using 16th, 32nd or shorter nots, and then space out the normal sequence as though it was on an 8 or 16 note grid. For the ratchet, you use the additional shorter steps in one section.
Ratcheting was a gimmick employed by Franke in the early 80's, then used to full effect in the Thief soundtrack and throughout many live performances over the 80's. TD weren't doing the Ratcheting effect in the 70's however.

Tbh i prefer listening to TD's early period known affectionately as the "Pink Years", TD were more daring and experimental back then.
Old 3rd December 2017
  #25
Lives for gear
 

Ratchetting is of course pretty easy to do in a DAW - you just have to split some 4s into 8s and 8s into 16s and so on.
Old 3rd December 2017
  #26
Lives for gear
 

It's all easy to do in DAW's.

This was done with free VST's.

Edgar Froese would often refer to some 'secret' that marked out their work with sequencers. Something that others could not emulate. A lot of this is probably bragging, but one thing to note is that sometimes the sequencers, as with Rubicon, run in groups of six, i.e everything is running in triple time, not 4's. When the delay is properly set this results in that characteristic TD sound.

It's not a rule, but setting the delay time is crucial. There are plenty of youtube videos of people with an impressive modular failing to get it right simply because they have not set the delay time to match the sequence properly. It's not always about the correct time either, it is choosing the right note division for the tempo. It should not be so slow as to effectively simply be double tracking the phrase, or so fast that it cant dance properly. Its best done by hand and ear, using an analog type of delay emulating degraded repeats, sweeping the time until it hits the spot.

I don't really know what secret Edgar had, but I think this is part of it.


Last edited by groundbass; 3rd December 2017 at 08:33 PM.. Reason: spelling
Old 3rd December 2017
  #27
Deleted User
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by groundbass View Post
I When the delay is properly set this results in that characteristic TD sound.
if you want that real TD delay sound [from 1970's] get a reel to reel machine and set it up as an effects loop, that's how they did it. mixer to R-2-R back to mixer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by groundbass View Post
I don't really know what secret Edgar had, but I think this is part of it.
there wasn't any real secret, just that they had a lot custom built sequencers made for them, that could do things no other analog sequencers could do at the time. they had people like projekt elektronik, wolfgang palm, EEH & Helmut Groethe all creating custom equipment for TD.


EEH CM4 Sequencer
Old 3rd December 2017
  #28
Lives for gear
 

In a late interview - I cant find it - he was asked about modern interest in the 'berlin' school and was basically trying to say TD were the best and no one, not even now that the technology is basically free, could match what they did.

So his 'secret' wasn't anything to do with technology, it was probably just bragging - but - it did make me think how basically he was kinda right.

I mean lots of people have this stuff now, but there is not a single youtube video I can find that does as good a TD. Why is that? I think he was basically saying of course, it is to do with creativity, and how you use things, but it also made me think about getting the basics right, and how tone selection, composition AND the technical aspects must come together.

So no secret really, just the basic fact that machines don't make the music.
Old 4th December 2017
  #29
Lives for gear
 
draig's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by groundbass View Post
In a late interview - I cant find it - he was asked about modern interest in the 'berlin' school and was basically trying to say TD were the best and no one, not even now that the technology is basically free, could match what they did.

So his 'secret' wasn't anything to do with technology, it was probably just bragging - but - it did make me think how basically he was kinda right.

I mean lots of people have this stuff now, but there is not a single youtube video I can find that does as good a TD. Why is that? I think he was basically saying of course, it is to do with creativity, and how you use things, but it also made me think about getting the basics right, and how tone selection, composition AND the technical aspects must come together.

So no secret really, just the basic fact that machines don't make the music.
The 70's were also a very different time culturally and aesthetically...
Old 4th December 2017
  #30
Gear Guru
 
Yoozer's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by groundbass View Post
I mean lots of people have this stuff now, but there is not a single youtube video I can find that does as good a TD. Why is that?
Because you're going to compare everything you hear to the original TD, realize that they did it 40 years earlier, and then there's nothing new about it anymore.

Quote:
So no secret really, just the basic fact that machines don't make the music.
I have it on good authority that when you install some EDM sample packs and soundsets and a few plugins, your computer will secretly switch itself on at 3AM and start uploading cookie-cutter EDM to SoundCloud, all by itself. There is no other explanation for the boatload of unoriginal tracks that's being released.

/s
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump