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Tangerine Dream Basslines? How'd they do it? Modular Synthesizers
Old 7th February 2019
  #61
Quote:
Originally Posted by seancostello View Post
I know it is my answer to most questions here, but: Moog Grandmother.

2/3 oscillator synth, with built in arpeggiator and sequencer. Circuits based on old school Moog modular (902 VCA, 904a filter, 911 envelope, 905 spring reverb, CP3 mixer).

Here's a few Tangerine Dream-ish sequences I did with the Grandmother, with plugins adding the dotted eighth note delay:




In my experience, the Grandmother is fun, but the "based on old circuits" is overstated, or marketing at best. To me, it doesn't sound any more like those circuits than any other Moog synth. It has the general Moog sound, but not the Moog Modular sound. It also has only the one envelope.

For context, I have the Grandmother, The Mother 32, Minimoog D reissue, Sub 37, Sub Phatty, a bunch of the Slim Phatty modules, Behringer D, and the MOS-Lab 921 oscillators and filter.

It's a fun synth and you can definitely make cool stuff (like what you did). My reaction is just to the modular comparison/marketing.

Pete
Old 7th February 2019
  #62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Syn303 View Post
berlin school is just a genre name, it has nothing to do with the sequencing. the berlin school tag wasn't around when TD's Phaedra appeared (TD was in the category of krautrock/cosmic/prog), or Schulze's Timewind. the name derives from the berlin school of electronic music, a workshop teaching electronic music and synthesis. notably by musician klaus schulze and some others.

some folks seem to have this silly notion that berlin school name is primarily attached to just the sequencing style,
notably of TD, Schulze, Ashra etc. it's a lot more than that!
Folks always argue about genre names and what makes something really part of that genre.

In general use, Berlin School is understood to be that Schulze/TD style of music. As a working definition for folks, it works. For example, everyone here understood what was being asked. I don't like to be a pedant about genres.

Pete
Old 7th February 2019
  #63
ValhallaDSP
 
seancostello's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
In my experience, the Grandmother is fun, but the "based on old circuits" is overstated, or marketing at best. To me, it doesn't sound any more like those circuits than any other Moog synth. It has the general Moog sound, but not the Moog Modular sound. It also has only the one envelope.

For context, I have the Grandmother, The Mother 32, Minimoog D reissue, Sub 37, Sub Phatty, a bunch of the Slim Phatty modules, Behringer D, and the MOS-Lab 921 oscillators and filter.

It's a fun synth and you can definitely make cool stuff (like what you did). My reaction is just to the modular comparison/marketing.
I would argue that the CP3 mixer in the Grandmother makes a BIG difference in the sound, especially with bass sounds. Cranking up the level of a sawtooth to max, and then mixing a 2nd sawtooth in at 1/2 to 2/3rds volume, gives you a bass sound that I haven't heard in the Sirin, Rogue, Multimoog, or stock Mother-32 (my Moog points of comparison). Adding a CP3 mixer to the Mother-32 will get you into a similar huge bass place.

I should try the Sirin for Berlin bass in the next few days.
Old 7th February 2019
  #64
ValhallaDSP
 
seancostello's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
Folks always argue about genre names and what makes something really part of that genre.

In general use, Berlin School is understood to be that Schulze/TD style of music. As a working definition for folks, it works. For example, everyone here understood what was being asked. I don't like to be a pedant about genres.
"Tangerine Dream music" would work as well. Covers Tangerine Dream, as well as music made by people that used to be in Tangerine Dream.
Old 7th February 2019
  #65
Quote:
Originally Posted by seancostello View Post
I would argue that the CP3 mixer in the Grandmother makes a BIG difference in the sound, especially with bass sounds. Cranking up the level of a sawtooth to max, and then mixing a 2nd sawtooth in at 1/2 to 2/3rds volume, gives you a bass sound that I haven't heard in the Sirin, Rogue, Multimoog, or stock Mother-32 (my Moog points of comparison). Adding a CP3 mixer to the Mother-32 will get you into a similar huge bass place.

I should try the Sirin for Berlin bass in the next few days.
I want the Sirin, but just can't justify $600 for it. My usual suspects have been unwilling to cut a deal on it. :P

The Grandmother can definitely do a nice bass. I just don't get the Moog Modular sound out of it. I'm also allergic to certain types of marketing :D

Pete
Old 7th February 2019
  #66
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by seancostello View Post

I should try the Sirin for Berlin bass in the next few days.
I would like to hear that. I would like to hear the minitaur as well, I'm sure that would sound great, but I cant find any uses of it on youtube.
Old 7th February 2019
  #67
Quote:
Originally Posted by groundbass View Post
I would like to hear that. I would like to hear the minitaur as well, I'm sure that would sound great, but I cant find any uses of it on youtube.
Not sure what you were searching on, but there are many examples of the minitaur doing Berlin School bass.

YouTube

Pete
Old 7th February 2019
  #68
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mutilatedlip's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by seancostello View Post
I would argue that the CP3 mixer in the Grandmother makes a BIG difference in the sound, especially with bass sounds. Cranking up the level of a sawtooth to max, and then mixing a 2nd sawtooth in at 1/2 to 2/3rds volume, gives you a bass sound that I haven't heard in the Sirin, Rogue, Multimoog, or stock Mother-32 (my Moog points of comparison). Adding a CP3 mixer to the Mother-32 will get you into a similar huge bass place.

I should try the Sirin for Berlin bass in the next few days.
Three AJH oscillators through the MA CP3 is, quite literally, ball rocking.
Old 7th February 2019
  #69
Gear Addict
 
John Difool's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
Be sure to read the comments, too. The demo is mis-attributed in the video.

Too bad these are unobtanium. They supposedly have an incredibly difficult workflow, but sound fantastic.
In Europe they are on ebay regularly. I bought Jörg Schaaf's, he made that demo and the presets. Nice fella..
Old 7th February 2019
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
Not sure what you were searching on, but there are many examples of the minitaur doing Berlin School bass.

YouTube

Pete
Yeah, but a lot have to much resonance on etc - but I did find one I missed that popped up from your link that has a nice sequence from the Korg SQ-1 so thanks.

Sounds good. Maybe the minitaur sound is a bit 'fatter' than the sound of the modules which always sound snappy and compact to me. Nice sound never the less.
Old 8th February 2019
  #71
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by himalaya View Post
A Studio Electronics Boomstar 5089 is a perfect candidate for these bass sounds.
Thank you Himalaya! Hallelujah! "That sound" without having to go into hock. I'm sold.

aaaaaahhhhh:

YouTube
Old 8th February 2019
  #72
If you're looking for something close to a 921 voice on the Moog Modular, the Minimoog and clone (Behringer D) are almost the same.

For the 901 voice, unless you buy a clone from Moon, MOS-Lab, or others, I haven't found anything quite the same.

The Boomstar is nice in that it has a full envelope. But if you want to save cash, just get a Behringer D.

Pete
Old 8th February 2019
  #73
Quote:
Originally Posted by mutilatedlip View Post
Three AJH oscillators through the MA CP3 is, quite literally, ball rocking.
Yeah. Basically an expensive Minimoog at that point.

Pete
Old 8th February 2019
  #74
Here for the gear
 

Thanks for the heads up Pete. Would be interested if anyone has been able to compare the Boomstar 5089 and Behringer D side by side (for tone)?
Old 8th February 2019
  #75
Quote:
Originally Posted by flayle View Post
Thanks for the heads up Pete. Would be interested if anyone has been able to compare the Boomstar 5089 and Behringer D side by side (for tone)?
IIRC, the Boomstars all use the same basic voice (oscillators, envelopes, etc.) with different filters. They are great boxes, but aren't meant to be recreations.

I like that they have full envelopes and not the half envelopes you get with the Minimoog.

Pete
Old 18th February 2019
  #76
Gear Maniac
 
midicontrol's Avatar
 

maybe i'm out of subject, but i'm not trying to nail that TD sound. Just wondering if there have been other albums from artists so ocean-deep & dark as that "Phaedra" or "Live Paris 1973" ? Truly inspiring. I don't believe the synth you use should be so important. An AS-1 can do amazing basslines, or a Telemark. It's more about how you put things together, building events, catchy melodies, the right tempo etc... diving any listener in a magical, supernatural atmosphere, altering reality by unseen sounds.
Old 18th February 2019
  #77
Gear Nut
 
macs672's Avatar
Low Pass Gates
Old 18th February 2019
  #78
Lives for gear
 
the donal's Avatar
This really is a great thread- thanks for sharing your tunes and sequences all. I'll get something Berlin School down at some point soon.

Just a question- for those of us that an old, old Moog modular is way out of reach of, how close do modern modulars like the Dotcom get for Rubycon era stuff? I'm guessing Mos-Lab and Moon might get closer? Not that I've the budget (or space) for big stuff for now- my SE-02 and Boog will have to suffice, but I'm just curious for now...

I may look at a small Euro 'helper' set of modules in the near future- get my Dark Time working for more of my synths (as the Boog has a gate for both envelopes, it looks like multiples at least will help, plus attenuators and an extra envelope for the Dark Energy).
Old 19th February 2019
  #79
Gear Nut
 

I find that when trying to get some of the more chilled-out/"colder" sequences going, there is an aggression that is hard to dial back in the Minimoog. Not sure if I'm just a bad programmer, or if I need different HW.
Old 19th February 2019
  #80
Quote:
Originally Posted by midicontrol View Post
maybe i'm out of subject, but i'm not trying to nail that TD sound. Just wondering if there have been other albums from artists so ocean-deep & dark as that "Phaedra" or "Live Paris 1973" ? Truly inspiring. I don't believe the synth you use should be so important. An AS-1 can do amazing basslines, or a Telemark. It's more about how you put things together, building events, catchy melodies, the right tempo etc... diving any listener in a magical, supernatural atmosphere, altering reality by unseen sounds.
It's fair. Each person is looking to accomplish something different.

Most genres have their signature sound. Acid and the 303, for example. For TD-style (older stuff), it's, among a few other things, that super snappy Moog modular bassline sound.

Pete
Old 19th February 2019
  #81
Quote:
Originally Posted by sean_synth View Post
I find that when trying to get some of the more chilled-out/"colder" sequences going, there is an aggression that is hard to dial back in the Minimoog. Not sure if I'm just a bad programmer, or if I need different HW.
I've found that dialing back the filter can really help. That, and reducing the oscillator levels if it's still too mean.

Pete
Old 19th February 2019
  #82
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STRATOSFEAR's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CZ Rider View Post
Always interested in these TD sequencer threads. I believe they only scratched the surface of this type music leaving much room to explore further.
I have been experimenting with the 904B and 904C filter getting new sounds that still have that Berlin School vibe.
Did a sequence using the old modular Moog controlled via the Pro~1 arp set on repeat. Holding down the keys for changing sequences. Really fun way to get that mechanical step sequencer sound with a bit of variation.
MP3 clip here:
This is incredible stuff
I'd buy a CD !
Old 19th February 2019
  #83
Gear Nut
 
SF_Green's Avatar
Go the software route with Arturia Modular V?
Old 19th February 2019
  #84
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the donal's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by SF_Green View Post
Go the software route with Arturia Modular V?
It's a good shout- I'll get that V Collection at some point. But I do like the tactile experience of having the hardware there. I find the Dark Time a lot of fun for this.
Old 14 hours ago
  #85
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spock's Avatar
Steven Wilson 2.0+5.1 remixes of Virgin TD + unreleased material

Quote:
Originally Posted by Syn303 View Post
Incidentally Steve Wilson is doing new mixes of TD's back catalogue, there was a rumour of possibly some unreleased material from recording sessions from the 70's albums (Phaedra, Rubycon etc). Froese did mention in an interview once that there was over 10 hours of unreleased material in the Virgin vaults.
OMG!
[UPDATE] TANGERINE DREAM 16CD, 2BD BOX, IN SEARCH OF HADES: THE VIRGIN RECORDINGS 1973-1979 | …essential
Quote:
The Box is expected on June 14! But possibly July 14! [...]
...the other CDs will house a collection of previously unreleased tracks (the set’s holy grail), three full recordings of concerts (Victoria Palace – 1974, Rainbow Theatre – 1974, Royal Albert Hall – 1975), the previously unreleased complete soundrack to Oedipus Tyrannus (in remixed Stereo and 5.1 Surround by Steven Wilson), 2 CDs of outtakes from the Phaedra sessions along with a live recording from 1975.
Old 21 minutes ago
  #86
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I don't know..I'm a bit on the fence with the whole remixing thing. I love Steve Wilson's music, but Tangerine Dream ruined their own original albums by trying to "refresh/modernize" them with some aaah choirs and other synth-du-jour sounds when they released that 1973-1983 Tangents box in the 90's. I have it and never listen to it as I much prefer the original recordings. I hope Wilson is not doing something similar to them.
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