The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Synths for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Sampling/Copyright Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 6th September 2011
  #31
Lives for gear
 
Zombie H's Avatar
 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerson..._Palmer_(album)

Although the composition of the first track, "Barbarian", was attributed to the three band members (on the U.S.A. Atlantic Records vinyl album release, and on all later U.S.A. reissues on CD - but not on the band's own British Manticore vinyl album release), it is an arrangement for rock band of Bartók’s 1911 piano piece, Allegro Barbaro.

The third track, "Knife Edge", is based on the first movement of Janá?ek’s Sinfonietta (1926) with an instrumental middle section that includes an extended quotation from the Allemande of Johann Sebastian Bach's first French Suite in D minor, BWV 812, but played on an organ rather than clavichord or piano. None of these quotations are attributed on the original U.S.A. Atlantic Records vinyl album release, nor on any later U.S.A.
Old 6th September 2011
  #32
Lives for gear
 

To C//AZM - You weren't the only one who didn't get his facts straight.

My understanding (someone correct me if i am wrong please) is that the only part of the verve track that has been lifted is a sample of an orchestral cover of a stones track....which at the end of the day only represents the chord progression of part of the original track.

The case is just an unpleasant example of the machinations of music industry.

Back on topic. the term sampling covers a much wider area of musical activity than just straight 'lifting' of hooks, melodies, whole refrains or vocal parts!
For example I like to take an upright bass part and cut it into individual notes, I then pitch individual cuts and may timestretch/shorten to maintain note length or not as I see fit...I will then re-play a new bass line using the elements of that original line, but what I end up with will be considerably different from what I started with. In this process I am using my musical ears, I am being creative, constructive and I am employing technical knowledge of my equipment.

Lazy? not
Creative? yes

And the sort of process I have just described is common practice amongst musicians who 'sample', that and many other equally creative process's.
Old 6th September 2011
  #33
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morechips View Post
Back on topic. the term sampling covers a much wider area of musical activity than just straight 'lifting' of hooks, melodies, whole refrains or vocal parts!
For example I like to take an upright bass part and cut it into individual notes, I then pitch individual cuts and may timestretch/shorten to maintain note length or not as I see fit...I will then re-play a new bass line using the elements of that original line, but what I end up with will be considerably different from what I started with. In this process I am using my musical ears, I am being creative, constructive and I am employing technical knowledge of my equipment.

Lazy? not
Creative? yes

And the sort of process I have just described is common practice amongst musicians who 'sample', that and many other equally creative process's.
+1 agreed
Old 7th September 2011
  #34
Lives for gear
 
Beermaster's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morechips View Post
Beermaster, do your homework on the Verve track! they didn't rip off the whole song....they used a 'sample' from the stones track.
Well, that's as maybe. The problem for them was not clearing the sample prior to release. A penalty for plagiarism or unlicensed use of a track no matter how small and insignificant can be huge. In a lot of cases I've known about where publishers have discovered their works on other peoples tracks is to 'aquire' the full publishing of that track. This comes back to the crux of this debate: Know where you stand with a sample before using it. It's always a total pain to get a track fully produced and start getting interest from people only to realize that you have to remove the samples or be sued.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morechips View Post
I seem to remember a post of yours where you advised someone to copy other works as a means to learn! and it is common when writing for TV, film etc to get directions in the form of previously recorded material....which leads to another form of 'ripping off' doesn't it? you will no doubt disagree! as that is your bread and butter....
I do indeed recommend that people try to re-construct tracks that they admire and find interesting - It is a totally brilliant way to learn.... I've never said to try and sell or pass off these tracks after you've recorded them tho !

Again you're right that I and many other media composers are asked to write music very much in the style of existing tracks and more often than not temp tracks are guides to final tracks. For me and any sane media writer the risks of being sued for plagiarism or passing off are far to dangerous to even think of getting too close to an existing track .......but more than that our own reputations and pride prevent this from happening. The films and scenarios we end up scoring to always require changes and forms that steer away from the temp tracks. To do this kind of work and to be able to break down a piece of music and not only analyze it but to take that DNA and construct a new track 'inspired' by the original takes a lot of experience.... the great masters all did this as do the current legends ... thats a form of evolution when it's done properly.

This is nothing like the brain dead use of a complete sample hook into a track....cos that is nothing more than an editors trick.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Morechips View Post
Check out Prefuse73 for an example of heavy sampling which certainly is not all cleared! Coldcut sampled extensively and would just list sources and wait, often never hearing anything from the owners of the material.

I propose you just don't like much sample based music and this informs your stand point on my post and others who advocate a similar approach.
Ha ha Prefuse73 ! - thats a bit of an old band to quote ! jeez, I was listening to their stuff over ten years back ! - didn't really like their production quality either. I really doubt that they didn't clear their samples......and if they still haven't then they weren't selling enough to make it worth while suing them.

I won't deny that I rarely have heard a sample based track that sounded better than the original track they've sampled. There are some classic examples of the ones I do like but they are very much in the minority ..... Groove is in the heart !
Old 7th September 2011
  #35
Gear Maniac
 
FUBAR's Avatar
 

Sampling has been around as far back as I can remember, hip-hop, trip-hop in the 80's, rave, techno, jungle break-beat in the 90's. drum & bass, trance, the list is long.

Music in the film industry also "borrows" a lot but there is a high level of snobbery, bum chumming and money evolved so that makes it ok. "Yes mr zimmer I know it has the same chord progression but it's not in the same key"

Sampling is taking a small section of a musical work and creating a new musical work from it and we ALL do this. How many times have we taken a small section of music that has already been written changed it a bit and made it our own, knowingly or unknowingly ? I hear it all the time from advertisements, film scores to lady gaga. The Verve track was just blatant GREED on the stones part and the sad reality on which the music industry revolves around and it is also slowly killing it's self from the inside out. Zappa warned us all about this and as usual no one was interested.

Moneys one thing, soul is another !

Keep sampling and worry about copyrights when your music is actually going to be released by a label.

Old 7th September 2011
  #36
Lives for gear
 
Beermaster's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by FUBAR View Post
Music in the film industry also "borrows" a lot but there is a high level of snobbery, bum chumming and money evolved so that makes it ok. "Yes mr zimmer I know it has the same chord progression but it's not in the same key"
Well the Holst Foundation didn't take to kindly to his rip off of 'Mars' in Gladiator .... that tooks six years to come to court - there are many many out of court settlements for Plagiarism and passing off so really isn't true that the boys in the know get away with it. Far from it !


Quote:
Originally Posted by FUBAR View Post
Sampling is taking a small section of a musical work and creating a new musical work from it and we ALL do this. How many times have we taken a small section of music that has already been written changed it a bit and made it our own, knowingly or unknowingly ? I hear it all the time from advertisements, film scores to lady gaga.
You shouldn't confuse 'Sampling' with 'writing in the style of' - the two are utterly different things. One is a direct photgraphic copy the other is and original production. One requires no experience and no talent the other a huge experience and shrewd understanding and talent. That's why one is brain dead and the other creative and alive. One possibly un-lawful the other inspired.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FUBAR View Post
Keep sampling and worry about copyrights when your music is actually going to be released by a label.



Keep sampling and not worrying if you have no intention of your music going anywhere but think Long and Hard about it if you want to get a deal or a first commercial success because labels and publishers won't touch your music if they even sniff that it contains an unlicensed sample.... plain a simple. It's SO much harder having to replace a sample and fill that hole with something else that works as well than to be totally original from the outset and write your tracks knowing that all of it is your own and to know that when that deal comes your way you're not going to have to mess with lawyers and deals and split residuals etc

Besides anything else, if you can write your own material from scratch without the crutches of other people music sampled over it then so much more kudos to you !

Beer.
Old 7th September 2011
  #37
Gear Maniac
 
FUBAR's Avatar
 

This debate has been beat out over the years on GS and people still get "touchy" about it. Just look at the history of sampling and what was achieved from it, this cannot be written off as "no brainier or talentless" far from it as it created completely new genres and a musical direction that spread globally.

Sampling (music) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:
"You shouldn't confuse 'Sampling' with 'writing in the style of' - the two are utterly different things. One is a direct photgraphic copy the other is and original production"
That statement makes very little sense as direct photographic copies have become original productions and below is the best example of that:



Notice how ZERO-G copyrighted their version of the sample in 2002 (which was used countless times in the 90's), this again is the ugly face of commerce and companies sticking there arms in.

You keep bringing up "commercial success" in your argument and that "commercial success" has done nothing but harm music because it creates a perfect platform for greed, selfishness and paranoia. There are thousands of memorable tracks stretching back to the 70's using samples of artists to create original productions and no one was complaining back then because people wrote music for the art form and not to get their tracks protected like a nuclear power station.

We are talking about short segments of music being reworked into a new production and it has gotten out of hand, "hey man you stole my riff" catch yourself on.

I can guarantee that your own music has riffs and chord progressions abound that have been done before, every thing has been done before Beer and you of all people should know this.

Composers shouldn't think too much - it interferes with their plagiarism heh
Top Mentioned Products
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump