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Drums: MIDI vs. Placing Audio Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 1st September 2011
  #1
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Drums: MIDI vs. Placing Audio

I've recently changed the way I do things when it comes to programing drums:

I started some years ago using FL Studio and Reason and as a result would compose all drums in MIDI only. I would primarily 'draw' out the patterns.

As of now, I use Ableton Live and place all my drums as audio. Since doing this I've found that I can get the groove I want WAY more easily. The beats I've been putting together lately sound more natural and groovy. I'm thoroughly pleased.

I think the reason why this works for me is because visually I can see the wave forms and through ear-eye coordination I just know where I want them to go, and making adjustments is quick and painless. I would mess around with MIDI notes off grid and such, but it just doesn't seem to be the same. Maybe it's me?? I never really implemented pre-made grooves, so maybe that's what was missing??

I still like to load up drum patches and play out parts without quantizing, which maintains a natural groove of course, but when it comes to programming I've found placing audio far more effective than drawing out patterns in MIDI.

Also, I suppose not all sequencers are created equally, but then again, maybe I'm just incompatible with MIDI programming.
As well I understand that a ton of you slutz out there are using hardware drum machines and samplers and are bound to be using MIDI of course, how do get your groove??

What I would like to see is a discussion of the methods that you folks out there use.

MIDI? Placing Audio? Both? Why do you do what you do?? Gear or preference???
Old 1st September 2011
  #2
Gear Guru
it's weird that so many people are bent up on this. I've never held MIDI as some seperate idea/concept.

Whatever sounds better?? Not even that.. whatever is around atm?
Old 1st September 2011
  #3
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that's the thing though, I find them to be very separate lol,

and I notice a world of difference in results when it comes to programming patterns.

Maybe it's just me, but I find MIDI to be more 'rigid' and robotic

There is a finite number of places that a midi note can go in any given 16th note (in Reason it's 240 places, maybe different for other sequencers, or is that universal?), there is also a finite number of places where audio can be placed, but perhaps what I'm getting at is, are there more 'places' when it comes to audio??
Old 1st September 2011
  #4
Gear Guru
ummm.... not really... unless it's quantized.

Not all drum machines are GRID based.. actually most aren't.
Old 1st September 2011
  #5
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Yeah don't think that midi is somehow limited to 16th note positions or any particular note length.

If you have a somewhat percussive sound with a slowed attack, you need to be able to shift the note slightly earlier in time, could be any amount, to make the rhythm sound and feel correct. Learn how to slide your notes to any position. The limitation may be a setting in the place where you enter the notes, such as if it's "piano roll" and "snap to grid" is active as the last post just said.
Old 1st September 2011
  #6
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It's definitely just you!

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Old 1st September 2011
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewsc View Post
Yeah don't think that midi is somehow limited to 16th note positions or any particular note length.

If you have a somewhat percussive sound with a slowed attack, you need to be able to shift the note slightly earlier in time, could be any amount, to make the rhythm sound and feel correct. Learn how to slide your notes to any position. The limitation may be a setting in the place where you enter the notes, such as if it's "piano roll" and "snap to grid" is active as the last post just said.
What I meant was, within a 16th note in Reason's sequencer, you can slide it 240 'ticks' forward, at which point it will be exactly on grid on the next 16th note. I'm curious if this is a standard limitation of space for all MIDI. I recall using a Korg Triton, and it too had a certain number of 'ticks' that a note could be slid ( I think it may have also been 240 per 16th note, I could be wrong). I wonder what the limitation is for placing audio in a DAW like Ableton or Cubase etc. Is there a a similar or a drastic difference in 'space' to place things?

As for samples with slow attacks, I think this may be part of why I have come to prefer placing audio, like I mentioned I can see the waveform and it's easier to get it in the right spot, and I don't have to 'blindly' fight with it (insert 'use your ears' here)

I don't know, I just feel as far as my workflow I've found a world of difference placing audio and I'm happy about it.

Quote:
It's definitely just you!
you know, I suspected that! heh Perhaps I will revisit this MIDI for sh#ts and giggles
Old 1st September 2011
  #8
Gear Maniac
 

I work mainly with Audio, but it sucks when you want to quickly change a sample you don't like anymore, Open/Closed hats, copy part of a loop to another sample (eg take note G#2 and move it to Bb)...etc
Old 1st September 2011
  #9
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I've never used Ableton so I don't know what you mean by "placing audio", could you maybe explain it for me? I'm used to "drawing" my drum tracks with a MIDI sequencer, but what really helped me along was to use a midi keyboard to play my beat, and then make whatever edits were necessary in the sequencer. That way you can "groove" by not always having notes start exactly on the beat but if certain notes are ruining the rhythmic vibe then I can make small edits to them. Also, the ability to change velocity on each note can add some groove to it. I think we all just develop our own way then stick to it because it's common to us.
Old 1st September 2011
  #10
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I find that MIDI is so unreliable. Each time I play the loop it sounds different cause midi timing is off. The most reliable midi sequencing I ever heard was from my MPC3000. Super tight! So now days I make a midi loop and export to wave when its pretty much done.
Old 2nd September 2011
  #11
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hey, thanks for chiming in here fellas,

Quote:
Originally Posted by StringBean View Post
I've never used Ableton so I don't know what you mean by "placing audio", could you maybe explain it for me? ... I think we all just develop our own way then stick to it because it's common to us.
Well, essentially placing audio is similar in concept to drawing midi notes on a grid. Instead of drawing notes, you're dragging and dropping the actual audio files onto timeline. So for example, you would drag and drop a kick sample on your kick track on the 1 count, and a snare on your snare track on the 2 count, etc, instead of say, drawing a C note for your kick and a D for your snare. Of course you are free to drag the samples anywhere you'd like either snapped to the grid or freely placed.

Whilst doing so you can edit each audio sample individually or as a group, so volume, pitch etc. You can edit the length of each sample, the envelope, you can reverse the sample, chop it up, etc.

Agreed on developing a preferred method of doing things. I'm at a point where I've got an overall workflow determined for the most part, but I am still trying to refine how I get things done. I use a lot of 'this and that' and feel like I'm 'all over the place.' (DAMN YOU INDECISIVENESS!) I start threads like this because I'm trying to make sense of it all and figure out where I fit in. Hopefully that's what others in a similar position might get out of it as well.

It's becoming apparent to me now, that whether using audio or midi, the two methods share most of the same capabilities as far as editing, just implemented differently. I think they both have their pluses and minuses.

Quote:
I work mainly with Audio, but it sucks when you want to quickly change a sample you don't like anymore, Open/Closed hats, copy part of a loop to another sample (eg take note G#2 and move it to Bb)...etc
This. A drum machine or sampler can replace sounds much more efficiently it seems than already placed audio. Huge for quickly selecting the right sound for what you want. It seems that when placing audio I need to determine what I want before it is in the context of a pattern, which may be a somewhat 'blind' (or should I say deaf?) way of looking at it.

How do you find they stand up to each other as far as getting the groove you want?

Quote:
I find that MIDI is so unreliable. Each time I play the loop it sounds different cause midi timing is off. The most reliable midi sequencing I ever heard was from my MPC3000. Super tight! So now days I make a midi loop and export to wave when its pretty much done.
Agreed on the unreliable. I think where I may have been noticing issues, is I tend to sometimes go crazy with the amount of stuff going on in a song, and I felt that there was inconsistency in the groove. Perhaps that may be an ITB issue when it comes to CPU load?? Something I have encountered.

When you say unreliable, in what context? and using what equipment/software??
Old 2nd September 2011
  #12
I tend to do a combination of both. But before I finish my track I record or export all my midi drums to audio.
Midi has timing issues (at least in Logic) and I can hear flamming.
It's not bad enough to stall my composition process, but if I want to be sure my drums are all in time, I record to audio and move anything that is flamming or sounds out before I do a final mix.
Old 2nd September 2011
  #13
Gear Nut
 
Titans55's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by frankthefunky1 View Post
What I meant was, within a 16th note in Reason's sequencer, you can slide it 240 'ticks' forward, at which point it will be exactly on grid on the next 16th note. I'm curious if this is a standard limitation of space for all MIDI. I recall using a Korg Triton, and it too had a certain number of 'ticks' that a note could be slid ( I think it may have also been 240 per 16th note, I could be wrong). I wonder what the limitation is for placing audio in a DAW like Ableton or Cubase etc. Is there a a similar or a drastic difference in 'space' to place things
giggles
In Reason, (any version) if you deselect the button that looks like a magnet you can drag any midi note to any spot on or off the grid If the magnet button is selected you are stuck to moving the midi note to the value you select the grid to be (1/8, 1/16, ect).

It sounds like you have set the grid to a value of 1/16 notes with the magnet button engaged, thus you can only move in 1/16 note intervals. Deselect the magnet and you'll be golden!!

It might be easier for you to do it with samples, but it is extremely easy to do it with midi notes.
Old 2nd September 2011
  #14
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question for you guys that program by dragging and dropping drum samples into the arrange window of your DAW...

how do you do the hi-hats and velocity for a more natural feel?
Old 2nd September 2011
  #15
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sftd's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
I tend to do a combination of both. But before I finish my track I record or export all my midi drums to audio.
Midi has timing issues (at least in Logic) and I can hear flamming.
It's not bad enough to stall my composition process, but if I want to be sure my drums are all in time, I record to audio and move anything that is flamming or sounds out before I do a final mix.
This is honestly the best answer so far and nearly duplicate to my process as well.

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Old 2nd September 2011
  #16
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Quote:
In Reason, (any version) if you deselect the button that looks like a magnet you can drag any midi note to any spot on or off the grid If the magnet button is selected you are stuck to moving the midi note to the value you select the grid to be (1/8, 1/16, ect).
I'm aware of that, I have no problem sliding MIDI notes. My bad, sometimes I don't express my thoughts as well as I'd like. I should have said MIDI notes can be slid up to 240 places before ending up on grid with the next 16th note. What I meant above was, there are literally 240 places a MIDI note can be slid to within the length of one 16th note. (See pictures attached). The absolute first position on the timeline a MIDI note can be in Reason's sequencer is at 1. 1. 1. 0 (bars/4th notes/16th notes/value of 0-239). You can freely slide it, but where it ends up with have a corresponding value in the Position box. As soon as you slide that note past 239 it ends up on the second 16th note exactly on grid with the value of 1.1.2.0. This also means that a 16th note's length in Reason's sequencer is 240 'ticks' (don't know what else to call).

What I'm wondering is, is this a standard value for all MIDI sequencers? Are there only 240 positions per 16th note or do some MIDI sequencers have higher resolutions? Is there a higher resolution when placing audio?


Quote:
Originally Posted by bchamorro View Post
question for you guys that program by dragging and dropping drum samples into the arrange window of your DAW...

how do you do the hi-hats and velocity for a more natural feel?
I'm not an expert (obviously, lol), but I've found keeping things variably on and off grid is where it's at.

I'm not sure what kind of drum patterns you're into putting down, but but I'll explain in the context of what I usually like to do lately, hip hop-esque/funky break beats.

If I'm going for a natural sounding hi hat and natural sounding pattern as if a drummer was playing it, and I was not going to play it myself using MIDI, but rather place the audio I would first try to find multiple round robin samples of the same hi hat, open and closed, including pedaled hat samples. As far as placing them, it really comes down to what kind of feel you want and how they will relate to the kick and snare and other drums (toms, cymbals, if present). But generally, Sometimes I may have a disjointed kick and snare that by themselves sound a little 'off,' but the hi hats will be placed in such a way that it rhythmically makes sense and end up holding the kick and snare together. The point of having multiple samples of closed and open hats is so that I can alternate them as I deem to be appropriate. You're going to have different hits with slightly different velocities and timbres, this is going to go a long way for a natural feel already.

To explain further as far as specifics go, it really is a case by case basis. A couple BENDABLE rules of thumb that I like to employ are (there are really no rules of course lol, whatever suits the song, but...)...let's call them guidelines :

1) Avoid snapping to grid (when appropriate lol). The greatest drummers are great because they are human (and great drummers). They are not robots and do not snap to grids. Thank God for that. Drums would be pretty boring if they did. That's not to say don't EVER snap to the grid, because even humans, as imperfect as we are, will lay out a few hits here and there that were DEAD on man! "SEE THAT, I WAS RIGHT ON THE GRID THAT TIME BRO!!" That's a little drummer shop talk for ya. At least that's what I imagine a group of drummers would talk about right?? Rhythm and timing and sticks and stuff.... Just like I imagine a bunch of movie directors sitting around together would talk about angles and ****...

2) The timing and volume of hi hat hits in relation to other drum instrument hits can be considered. For instance, take for example you have a simple 8th note hi hat pattern going with kicks on 1 and 3 and snares on 2 and 4. You may want to lower the volume on the hat whenever the snare hits so as to emphasize the snare more, and then raise the volume on the 8th notes immediately following the snares to give that part of the pattern emphasis. You could do this vice versa with the kicks, or do both, etc. This is just one of an infinite number of possible velocity variations you can do. As far as timing goes, or placement I should say, I like placing hats slightly unsynced one way or the other when landing with a kick or snare.

As far as timing, you can have a hat driven rhythm with the hats nudged slightly ahead of everything else. Or you can have the hats 'laid back' by having them nudged slightly after everything. It's really on you. There's the old Gearslutz adage: use your ears! How do you want the rhythm to hit YOU?

3) as far a velocities when it comes to rolls, say you had a quick three hat roll on 32nd notes, I might lower the volume on the middle hat, or the two on the outsides, or maybe do a ramp up from front to back. It's really wide open.

4) another thing I like to do as well is (as tedious as this may be for some, is go through and alternate the pitch by a few cents give or take on each individual sample from time to time) this gives a little bit more randomness to the sound as when somebody is really rocking the drums, no two hits are ever 'exactly' the same (let's not get into a philosophical debate here, but you get the point). Randomness and madness with a method.

5) alternate your loops! don't just copy and paste, I like to take the time to lay 'em all down one by one over a judicious amount of time. time consuming yes, but also very satisfying.

anyways, those are some of the things I have been messing with lately. Hope that gives you some ideas.

I definitely recommend just listening to drummers drum. Get a feeling for how different drummers lay their flavour on the beats. Every drummer is different, but you'll get an idea of how the velocities should sound.

wow, I really got the typing there didn't I.....heh I ASSURE THE BOARD, I'M HONESTLY WORKING ON GETTING MY THOUGHTS EXPRESSED IN A CONDENSED FORM, I'll get there.....

frank
Attached Thumbnails
Drums: MIDI vs. Placing Audio-reason-sequencer-1.jpg   Drums: MIDI vs. Placing Audio-reason-sequencer-2.jpg   Drums: MIDI vs. Placing Audio-reason-sequencer-3.jpg  
Old 2nd September 2011
  #17
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Titans55's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by frankthefunky1 View Post
I'm aware of that, I have no problem sliding MIDI notes. My bad, sometimes I don't express my thoughts as well as I'd like. I should have said MIDI notes can be slid up to 240 places before ending up on grid with the next 16th note. What I meant above was, there are literally 240 places a MIDI note can be slid to within the length of one 16th note. (See pictures attached). The absolute first position on the timeline a MIDI note can be in Reason's sequencer is at 1. 1. 1. 0 (bars/4th notes/16th notes/value of 0-239). You can freely slide it, but where it ends up with have a corresponding value in the Position box. As soon as you slide that note past 239 it ends up on the second 16th note exactly on grid with the value of 1.1.2.0. This also means that a 16th note's length in Reason's sequencer is 240 'ticks' (don't know what else to call).

What I'm wondering is, is this a standard value for all MIDI sequencers? Are there only 240 positions per 16th note or do some MIDI sequencers have higher resolutions? Is there a higher resolution when placing audio?
frank

Sorry man... I was quick reading on my phone and didn't read your post carefully enough. That's a good question. I use reason and pro tools for midi. I have know idea how many "ticks" are between 1/16 in pro tools. I'm gonna check tomorrow.
Old 2nd September 2011
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Titans55 View Post
Sorry man... I was quick reading on my phone and didn't read your post carefully enough. That's a good question. I use reason and pro tools for midi. I have know idea how many "ticks" are between 1/16 in pro tools. I'm gonna check tomorrow.
no apology necessary mate,

heck, I just found this wikipedia article Pulses Per Quarter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia :

PPQ (Pulses Per Quarter note) is the smallest unit of time used for sequencing note and automation events in the MIDI standard. Most MIDI sequencers allow the number of PPQ to be varied for more or less temporal resolution depending on the needs of the performer.
If there are too few PPQ any performance recorded into the MIDI sequencer may sound artificial (being quantised by the Pulse rate) or lose subtle variations in timing that gives music a 'human' feeling. Generally 96 PPQ is sufficient to capture enough temporal variation. Although some musicians like to work with PPQs around 960 or more.
PPQ is a relative measure of time since it is the tempo of the MIDI sequence, set in Beats Per Minute BPM, that defines the length of a quarter note (in seconds) and so the duration of 1 Pulse (or 'tick' as it is sometimes known to programmers).

also found this thread on the ableton forums: Ableton Forum • View topic - Live's Export MIDI File resolution is 96 ppqn.

From what I could gather in that thread, it appears that the MIDI resolution in Live has an internal resolution of 960 ticks per quarter note (or 240 per 16th as I was originally looking at it in Reason).... I suspect the same of other DAWs. seems, as the thread was inconclusive unfortunately, and I can't seem to find anything concrete on the actual resolution of placing audio (or MIDI in Live for that matter)

However, I think it's safe to conclude that MIDI resolution is determined by the gear/software itself with a minimum of 96 PPQ, older gear tending to have lower resolutions. I've read about older MPC's, etc with lower res.

actually just found this on pro-tools: from the pt reference guide...

"Pro Tools is a sample-based program with an internal MIDI resolution of 96,000 ppq. However, when the Time Scale is set to Bars/Beats, the display resolution is 960 ppq."


Now all that being said, is there an audible difference when it comes to resolution rates??

I'm going to say yes in my opinion. Higher resolution = more room to groove, and that's a good thing. Not to say you can't get groovy with lower resolutions, but I'm thinking higher resolution = more opportunity for natural sounding grooves...

I'm thinking now that the MIDI resolution seems to be a consequence of the sequencer itself, and not of just playing a controller freely. I have a new question!

If I was to record both the MIDI and the audio of say a piano riff, would there be a difference in the playback of the two??

I'm thinking there might be....hmmmmmmm

okay my eyes and brain are hurting now, I've been internetting too much today.....
Old 2nd September 2011
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
I tend to do a combination of both. But before I finish my track I record or export all my midi drums to audio.
Midi has timing issues (at least in Logic) and I can hear flamming.
It's not bad enough to stall my composition process, but if I want to be sure my drums are all in time, I record to audio and move anything that is flamming or sounds out before I do a final mix.
I tried this out just now, pretty cool trick.
Old 2nd September 2011
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
I tend to do a combination of both. But before I finish my track I record or export all my midi drums to audio.
Midi has timing issues (at least in Logic) and I can hear flamming.
It's not bad enough to stall my composition process, but if I want to be sure my drums are all in time, I record to audio and move anything that is flamming or sounds out before I do a final mix.
I dig it! Seems to be the best of both worlds. Making use of all the tools. nicely said and done sir
Old 17th October 2011
  #21
I started using a combo of midi and placing audio.

for risers/swells/reverse cymbals/sound effects and basically anything long / sustained with character.
It's audio all the way.
easier to see and visualise it to the arrangement
and also gives me options to cut up or stretch it.

basic beat stuff
Kick, snare and often hihat - all midi
I don't trust my earlier decisions on sounds, and swapping out samples can be painful.
also (when in ableton) using the internal samplers are so damn quick
I also like the edit-ability it retains..
If you program a fill using audio, then have to take it to another project, it usually involves bouncing down the whole loop or committing each track to longer audio files...
which means you have to cut these up again if you change your mind...

for stuff in between those 2 extremes.. toms, other percussion sounds...
it depends on how i'm feeling

when programming drums in Reaper (for working with my bandmates who are Reaper fanatics) I find manually placing drums alot faster, but thats only because there isn't a decent drum sampler built in.
Old 17th April 2014
  #22
Gear Head
 

I use both midi and audio. I struggled with this for awhile. Figuring out exactly how I worked best with creating drums. The number of options I had complicated things even more...Audio, Logic Ultrabeat, Logic EXS24, Battery 4, Maschine, Kontakt 5. I was keenly aware of the pros and cons of each...and I struggled. What I do now is place my main drum hits with audio (kick, snare, clap, crash, reverse snare, rev clap, rev kick, rev crash)

The different hihats I'll sometimes play out with midi in Battery if I want it to me intricate. You can play more off instinct with hihats. It's not so rigid. You can naturally create polyrhythms easily based off of your instincts. Also the timing and velocity can vary greatly with hihats and I'd rather not create multiple audio hihat tracks playing the same sound just to get some velocity variation. That's 1 of the downsides if placing audio. But with your main drum hits/fx there won't be hardly any variation in velocity.
Old 17th April 2014
  #23
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okeedokeee.. 3 years later and here we are or arent. Awesome tutorial man!
Old 17th April 2015
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4NDRW View Post

basic beat stuff
Kick, snare and often hihat - all midi
I don't trust my earlier decisions on sounds, and swapping out samples can be painful.
I agree, its a lot simpler to change the kickdrum or whatever in sample player. But, in the end its all about finding the "perfect" sound for your song or project. Especially if you have some atumations on drum tracks, it's a nightmare to change it and basically you have to start from scratch.

I use drum sampler just to throw initial idea of a groove, when i'm satisfied, i try to find that sound that fits the song.

Then,when i'm done i bounce all tracks to audio, ofc, you have to separate the channels in a drummachine (Battery or whatever ur usin) and then work with audio. Your CPU will like that.
Old 26th February 2017
  #25
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diantre View Post
I work mainly with Audio, but it sucks when you want to quickly change a sample you don't like anymore, Open/Closed hats, copy part of a loop to another sample (eg take note G#2 and move it to Bb)...etc
I know in Ableton you can easily swap out audio files w/o having to redo the pattern. Only catch is you have to be sure the audio file is ONLY being used on the pattern you want to swap it out on. Meaning it will swap out that audio file wherever it's used in your project.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p5vKh0nWPqk
Old 26th February 2017
  #26
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TornadoTed's Avatar
I write in Cubase and when the track is finished I bounce to audio and then mix in Pro Tools. I do this for a few reasons,

1- Virtual Instruments are stereo only in Cubase so I pan then fully left or right to make mono tracks.

2- I bounce everything at -18dB so I have proper gain staging at the start of mixing.

3- I like the composing and mixing to be 2 very distinct phases, like tracking a band and then mixing afterwards.

4- CPU power, I can use all my CPU for virtual instruments and then have all my CPU available for mixing.

5- The bit that is relevant to this thread! I find it far easier to nudge audio around to get the groove right rather than working in midi.
Old 26th February 2017
  #27
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If you work with a drum synth or a sampler, you can easily work off the grid using loose sample start times and changing attacks for various drum sounds, not to mention nudging or micro-placement, not to mention swing.

Secondly, using a hardware machine prompts spontaneous decisions where you're less inclined to get fussy - this keeps a degree of mess and organics in it.

Working with audio in the DAW is, in principle, no different to using a sampler (except not as much fun or inspiring for some of us). Horses for courses.
Old 21st June 2017
  #28
There was a great kind of a tutorial on YouTube where the guy shared countless possibilities of working with drums as audio, I want to find it so very much, but can't do it since. That person have a dedicated music making tutorials channels I'd like to find again so much. Any ideas what I'm talking about?

ADDED: if I remember correctly the video was something alike "10 (20?) reasons why audio is better than midi for drums" (Ableton).

Looking for it again right now trying to find it. That one that I remember was quite very professional both about the content and the presentation, not that rookie stuff popping up for me for now.
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