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Paypal protection? Studio Headphones
Old 31st August 2011
  #1
Gear Maniac
Paypal protection?

im getting ready to receive paypal payment for an item ($1k++) (its a synth so this post isnt offtopic :p). i intend to make sure that the address registered with paypal is the same as the address i will ship the item to--how do i find this out btw?

i am also asking the buyer to send me a scan of his signature so i can compare it against DHL's delivery signature confirmation. and i intend to withdraw the funds immediately out of my paypal account

are there any other precautions i should take? im particularly leery of cashback fraud, wherein the buyer sends payment, i ship the item, and he chargesback my account claiming he didnt receive the item

any advice?
Old 31st August 2011
  #2
Here for the gear
 

I have had nothing but trouble with PayPal... they're so unaccountable that they're quite happy to rip you off and there's no recompense.
Old 31st August 2011
  #3
Gear Nut
 

I recently sold a drum machine on ebay, the buyer paid by paypal,
but he used a stolen credit card, so the credit card company did a "chargeback" & where able to take all the money back from me aswell as charge me a fee for doing so.

After all the sales fee's I cleared £375, but after the chargeback & fee's I now owe paypal £420 & have no drum machine.

I've called them many times & as the previous person says they are completely unaccountable, there slogans suggest that there the safest way to make & recieve payments but it really doesnt show, your far better off using a local add service & only excepting cash on collection.
Old 31st August 2011
  #4
Lives for gear
 
Simonator's Avatar
 

Wow. Horror story. Sorry to hear that.


To the OP... was this an eBay auction?

If so, even after the buyer sends funds & you see them, you cannot access the funds until the buyer has given you positive feedback via eBay (or a period of something like 6 weeks has passed).
Old 31st August 2011
  #5
Lives for gear
 
Eric J's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simonator View Post
Wow. Horror story. Sorry to hear that.


To the OP... was this an eBay auction?

If so, even after the buyer sends funds & you see them, you cannot access the funds until the buyer has given you positive feedback via eBay (or a period of something like 6 weeks has passed).
I'm not sure why this happened to you this way, but I have always been able to access by funds immediately after payment. Transferred to my account in a day or two, then I ship. Easy.
Old 31st August 2011
  #6
Lives for gear
 
Acid Mitch's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simonator View Post
Wow. Horror story. Sorry to hear that.


To the OP... was this an eBay auction?

If so, even after the buyer sends funds & you see them, you cannot access the funds until the buyer has given you positive feedback via eBay (or a period of something like 6 weeks has passed).
Is that for a business account or something ?
I sold some things about a week and a half ago and could access funds before any feedback had been left.
Old 31st August 2011
  #7
Engagement Manager
 
Sniperschool's Avatar
with ebay private sellers can access any cleared funds immediately
non cleared funds like ebay cheque take up to a few weeks but they'll tell you when the cheque will clear

as far as i'm aware if the buyer funded the payment via his or her credit card there is nothing that will protect you against a chargeback

this has always been a danger when using paypal as it's the credit card company taking the money back from you rather than paypal

if they paid for an item from their paypal balance or instant bank transfer then a refund will only be given if a dispute is found in their favour (for example they can prove that they never received the item from you)

if it's an ebay sale then they are also covered by ebays buyer protection scheme

also worth remembering that as a buyer if you send money to someone as a 'gift' to get around the fees then you are not covered if something goes wrong
so unless you know the person you are sending money to it's really not worth the risk
Old 31st August 2011
  #9
Gear Maniac
yes ive read/am still reading all the stories about chargeback frauds (what im most worried about). it seems it is most risky when the payment is funded via credit card, as the cc company can reverse payment and hold paypal liable, so they will likely just decide in favor of the buyer. what im doing to protect myself is:

1) asking buyer to send a scan of his signature so i can compare it against the delivery signature of the shipping company
2) shipping only to the same address as the verified paypal address of the buyer
3) shipping only after confirming that payment was made from paypal funds or a bank account and not a credit card (how can i know this for sure?)
4) withdrawing the funds immediately. this way, paypal wont have my money frozen while investigating any potential dispute
5) keeping records of every bit of communication

anything else im missing?
Old 31st August 2011
  #10
I just got a message from paypal saying thY effective immediately they will be holding all funds in my account for 21 days in order to protect against chargebacks. They said this is based on my account activity even though I have never chargedback or received one. If you can withdraw fast do it.

Sent from my DROIDX using Gearslutz.com App
Old 31st August 2011
  #11
Lives for gear
 
seen-da-sizer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by watari banzai View Post
yes ive read/am still reading all the stories about chargeback frauds (what im most worried about). it seems it is most risky when the payment is funded via credit card, as the cc company can reverse payment and hold paypal liable, so they will likely just decide in favor of the buyer. what im doing to protect myself is:

1) asking buyer to send a scan of his signature so i can compare it against the delivery signature of the shipping company
2) shipping only to the same address as the verified paypal address of the buyer
3) shipping only after confirming that payment was made from paypal funds or a bank account and not a credit card (how can i know this for sure?)
4) withdrawing the funds immediately. this way, paypal wont have my money frozen while investigating any potential dispute
5) keeping records of every bit of communication

anything else im missing?
6) Take a Photo of the synth's serial number, before shipping it!

Yeah, some buyers buy working equipment, claim it arrived broken, then send back their broken unit.
Old 31st August 2011
  #12
Lives for gear
 
greggybud's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by frans View Post
I remember something about the number of transactions having something to do with how long they hold your money?

The bottom line for me is PayPal/Ebays "Buy with confidence" is not true. I think that's extremely misleading. They have suggested there is some sort of "guarantee" if you "follow all the procedures correctly".

Keep in mind the difference between paying through PayPal and paying through PayPal for an Ebay auction.

Here is what happened to a friend. He followed all the PayPal/Ebay rules. I'm told the policy has changed since this time, but it scared me enough to be very concerned.

1. Buyer sends payment of $1000 to seller for legal item in the USA.

2. Buyer never receives item and spends weeks going through the PayPal dispute procedure.

3. PayPal determines the transaction was a fraud.

4. Weeks later, buyer receives $75 and PayPal closes the dispute.

The bottom line is that the buyer only received $75 because that is all that was left in the sellers checking/savings account. This is why PayPal always PUSHES HARD all the so called advantages of paying directly from your checking/savings account so a credit card company isn't involved.
Old 31st August 2011
  #13
Lives for gear
 
dhollmusik's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simonator View Post
was this an eBay auction?

If so, even after the buyer sends funds & you see them, you cannot access the funds until the buyer has given you positive feedback via eBay (or a period of something like 6 weeks has passed).
This is almost true, the figure is 21 days.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cananball View Post
I just got a message from paypal saying thY effective immediately they will be holding all funds in my account for 21 days in order to protect against chargebacks. They said this is based on my account activity even though I have never chargedback or received one. If you can withdraw fast do it.
This is true. Paypal no longer need a reason, they are beginning to just say "it's for your own security". The convenience is gone, now Paypal is the slowest bank in the world.

And they are earning mighty profits from all that interest on these held funds.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sniperschool View Post
with ebay private sellers can access any cleared funds immediately .
This is not true.


I am a registered private seller on Ebay and Paypal. I am registered since the end of last year and have 100% from 18 sales ratings. I have not had a single complaint or case open, and the gear I sell is consistently music production or photography gear and my offers are consistently well described with original photographs.

I still have to wait 21 days or until I receive a positive rating from the buyer (some buyers forget to rate, and I don't want to pester anyone about it). The reason is always the same:

"To protect you and your buyer, we are holding funds etc"

Twice I've sent very angry mails through my own Paypal account demanding they free my money, and this is the reply I get:

"We do not recognise your email address. Please send us your inquiry via an email address which is registered with your Paypal account.
"




Intentional stalling for time...Paypal has become very very disagreeable for private sellers to use. It's as if they and Ebay want to abolish the private market and just have Powersellers dominating.

It's weird, but I assume the twin evils of efficiency and profit are the reasons for it.
Old 31st August 2011
  #14
Gear Maniac
 
Hypnocil's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dhollmusik View Post
I am a registered private seller on Ebay and Paypal. I am registered since the end of last year and have 100% from 18 sales ratings.
Maybe you have to reach some threshold? My total fb is close to 1000, with a few hundred of that from selling. Last year I sold a lot of stuff at once to fund a synth purchase - but never any problems getting at my money.
Old 31st August 2011
  #15
Lives for gear
 
dhollmusik's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hypnocil View Post
Maybe you have to reach some threshold? My total fb is close to 1000, with a few hundred of that from selling. Last year I sold a lot of stuff at once to fund a synth purchase - but never any problems getting at my money.
Then they should tell us this. Instead I keep getting back the same Template answers from them which make no sense to my question:

Q: why isn't my money free? I already confirmed the delivery with the tracking number in both the Paypal and Ebay systems.

A: Your money will be free when you confirm the delivery with the tracking number in the Paypal system.


There's a word for this...Kafkaism.
Old 31st August 2011
  #16
A option is to do a bank transfer...

Some banks are offering alternatives to paypal. If your in the US and have a chase account....
Old 31st August 2011
  #17
Gear Guru
 
Muser's Avatar
Paypal usually say that you are covered for up to £500.. but you need to have used tracking and have a signed for delivery for that. when the mail do a signed for delivery service for you you actually need a service by which you can get the signature back though.

ask yourself this.. when ever you have paid for a signed for delivery, when have you ever got the signature back ?

paypal want proof of signature over £150 and tracking for anything under.. in order to fulfill the criteria for protection.

btw, if paypal took the chance on accepting payment via a credit card, that really is their decision to take a chance, not yours.. when you think about it. that allows them to offload the risk onto other parties.

but in any case, to use what paypal offer you need to fulfill their criteria for protection properly. and understand it as well.

if they offered you the protection and you
1: didn't notice.
2: didn't fulfill the stipulations
then you won't be able to provide them with a tracking number and signature. they will ask you to send that signature btw. so you have to get it from the service you paid for..

one way to get a signature, is called (advice of delivery). you can ask the post office for some slips. it costs about 60 pence. If you ever ask for that signature and the postal service can't provide you with it then you can charge the postal service for the loss of the item. you don't need to tell them about any credit card problems in that case. that would be nothing to do with them in that case any how.. if you see what I'm getting at.

paypal or the postal service won't bat an eyelid on not giving you insurance if you don't fulfill their criteria.. so I learned to use exactly the same rules as they do.
paypal holding funds for 21 days is an indication as to how much fraud is going on. They are protecting themselves not you.
it doesn't matter anyhow, they call the money back in any case at any time. This is another reason why you should always get a service with a signature which you can get back and (always) get it back anyhow. even if it all goes seemingly ok.

if the postal company can't give you the proof of signature, then you also have the legitimate option to charge the postal service for the non delivered item.

for the UK paypal stipulation, anything over £150 and up to £500 needs tracking AND signature. not sure what happens after £500.
I never found that out. not sure what the US limits and scales are either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thesystemite View Post
I recently sold a drum machine on ebay, the buyer paid by paypal,
but he used a stolen credit card, so the credit card company did a "chargeback" & where able to take all the money back from me aswell as charge me a fee for doing so.

After all the sales fee's I cleared £375, but after the chargeback & fee's I now owe paypal £420 & have no drum machine.

I've called them many times & as the previous person says they are completely unaccountable, there slogans suggest that there the safest way to make & recieve payments but it really doesnt show, your far better off using a local add service & only excepting cash on collection.
Old 1st September 2011
  #18
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by watari banzai View Post
im getting ready to receive paypal payment for an item ($1k++) (its a synth so this post isnt offtopic :p). i intend to make sure that the address registered with paypal is the same as the address i will ship the item to--how do i find this out btw?

i am also asking the buyer to send me a scan of his signature so i can compare it against DHL's delivery signature confirmation. and i intend to withdraw the funds immediately out of my paypal account

are there any other precautions i should take? im particularly leery of cashback fraud, wherein the buyer sends payment, i ship the item, and he chargesback my account claiming he didnt receive the item

any advice?
dont sell using paypal
you get zero protection
they get 100% capability to screw you over
Old 1st September 2011
  #19
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by watari banzai View Post
i intend to make sure that the address registered with paypal is the same as the address i will ship the item to--how do i find this out btw?
Go to your paypal account after payment has been made, find the transaction and look under 'details' of that transaction, the page the 'details' button links to will show you the buyers address and will tell you if the adress is confirmed with paypal usa or not...only send to that address. if you need any other info regarding your protection as a seller why not get paypals number and speak to someone? ask them about the issues you have fear about!! thats what they are there for. For eg. ask them how long would it take before use of a fraudulent card would show up on their system?

I never had problems selling, only buying and i noticed a bit of a depressing pattern, I have bought pretty much solely photographic equipment (large format film camera equipment) and musical equipment....which group of sellers do you think were the least reliable and more prone to giving flaky descriptions or just straight up taking the piss? yup you guessed it my fellow musicians!

Anyway back on topic, to the OP communicate with the buyer as much as possible always via ebay's messaging service, get and give reassurance and communicate with the people providing the service (ebay/paypal). Just make sure all bases are covered, don't send until you feel sure. And finally if you don't feel sure don't sell, the worst that can happen then is you get negative feedback.
Old 1st September 2011
  #20
Also, those thinking they can just remove the cash from their Paypal accounts quickly and be done with it, they'll happily put your PP account in the red and send the bailiffs round. Happened to a mate that got scammed selling - buyer claimed they never received the item, mate had spent the cash, paypal wants his telly to settle things.
Old 1st September 2011
  #21
Gear Maniac
 
AbsoluteSpirit's Avatar
 

Some of this will depend on the country you're in...

Paypal will hold your money for 21 data or until positive feedback is left if you have less than 100 positive FB as a buyer/private seller

Delivery companies deliver to an address not an individual - it may not be the buyer that signs for the item

Postal insurance is for your benefit not the buyers (this may be different in the USA) in the UK your responsibility doesn't end at the post office counter...

Always send anything of value via a minimum of signed for/recorded delivery and consider absorbing the cost of next day delivery - the less time it spends with the courier or RM the chances are lower for it getting damaged.

Photograph the serial number, unique marks and also any part that is easily removable/swappable - consider marking parts with security pen

Don't skimp on packing materials to save a few quid...

Only send to the address on the paypal order details - don't accept any excuse it reason why you should send it anywhere else. They can change the address easily if they have to.

If you're considering selling more stuff in future don't be a d*ck as feedback left for you will be important
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