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Something new from Korg at NAMM 2011? Korg Kronos! Keyboard Synthesizers
Old 14th January 2011
  #301
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Spectral Climax's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tyler477 View Post
I'll buy this in 10 years when it's 350 bucks at a pawn shop
Sad, but true...maybe not only for 350 bucks, but, i'm sure that it will be cheap...this doesn't mean that it's not an interesting instrument though...
Old 14th January 2011
  #302
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DarkPlasma's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spectral Climax View Post
this doesn't mean that it's not an interesting instrument though...
Nope, just the reality of digital.
Old 14th January 2011
  #303
Gear Head
 

Man, What a lot of opinionated bitching over an instrument you've never heard, and only a few people have even gotten their hands on. I saw it yesterday at the NAMM show, I was there for the demo, you can't play it yet. Without touching a working unit, I can absolutely say that, I'm getting one.
For the last 5 years or so at NAMM I've been saying,"Where's the innovation?".
Small technological steps forward, but no innovation. (Maybe the Euphonix MC Control surfaces). Yes, some things about it are cooler than others, but overall...
This thing blew me away!
Old 14th January 2011
  #304
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ Reynolds View Post
what's with all the Roland hate?

dfegadKorg
heh
Old 14th January 2011
  #305
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DarkPlasma's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by htieksppircs View Post
Man, What a lot of opinionated bitching over an instrument you've never heard
Wow, relax dude, you really don't think 10 years from now the Kronos will be worth $350?

I bought the M3 brand new when it came out. How do you think I feel right now?

I will never sell the M3, because unlike many others, I actually really like this instrument, and I learned it inside out (took forever!), and I will continue to use it...but its just the reality of digital...whats the best today, is not the best tommorow anymore, unfortunately.
Old 14th January 2011
  #306
Yeh there is that issue too!! heh

I bought a FULLY loaded Kurzweil K2000 when it first came out. It's now worth roughly a stick of gum and an open packet of potato chips!!heh
Prior to that, a BRAND NEW Yamaha SY77, Korg Wavestation AD and Roland D70.

BUT, I've used them on SOO many productions that they paid for themselves over and over.

I think the Kronos will afford me this same luxury.

Looking forward to it!thumbsup
Old 14th January 2011
  #307
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cane creek's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kilon View Post

Show me one that is master of one. What the hell, show me one that is not deeply flawed and I will be seriously surprised.
My Moog little phatty has superb bass and a fantastic sounding filter , I'd rather own the Phatty because it is Master at what it was made for.
Old 14th January 2011
  #308
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kilon's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cane creek View Post
My Moog little phatty has superb bass and a fantastic sounding filter , I'd rather own the Phatty because it is Master at what it was made for.
its monophonic, far far far from being master. Not to exclude that many consider it as the worst moogs ever in terms of sound, me included. But I guess sound is abit subjective.Its extremely difficult to prove that strip down moog is a master at anything.

Except if you trying to say that its a master of tiny scope of sound, but that defeat the meaning of the word "master" , which is an extremely powerful word used to describe something extremely limited.

Unless for you the word "master" had some special meaning inside which moog phaty fits perfectly, but then we go back to the subjective thing which matters only to people that share partly your opinion on the matter. I could argue likewise that KRONOS is master of all trades and be equally right.

So that bares the question is this anything more than personal opinion ? I think it is, because when people cannot seperate analogue from digital, va from vst , modulars from workstations, does it really worth it to be entagled inside our personal opinions ? Unless one makes music only from himself, but I cant see myself fitting in that category.
Old 15th January 2011
  #309
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoobyDoo555 View Post
I'm not going to break down my response to your questions - life's too short.
Okay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoobyDoo555 View Post
Suffice to say that you are wrong on some of your comments and conclusions.
If you read carefully, all I did is just asked some questions. So I cannot be wrong, because I didn't even say anything yet :P
Old 15th January 2011
  #310
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cane creek's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kilon View Post
its monophonic, far far far from master. Not to exclude that many consider it as the worst moogs ever in terms of sound, me included. But I guess sound is abit subjective.
I don't think you understand me , It good at what is was made for.
And if you think your going to get a better Analog sound out of the Kronos then yes sound is abit subjective.

What will the Krono's be superb at ? With the apps I've currently got on my iPad if I was to stick it on one of those new docking/keyboards it would probably do most of the things the Kronos does and apart from the piano/Rhodes emulation it would probably do the other things better lol
Old 15th January 2011
  #311
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kilon's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cane creek View Post
I don't think you understand me , It good at what is was made for.
Is it , not for me, at least all the demos I heard, youtube videos, samples have left me cold.

Quote:
And if you think your going to get a better Analog sound out of the Kronos then yes sound is abit subjective.
I have Andy together with my motif, I listen to one of my tracks and I try really hard to find where I used Andy and where motif.

Quote:
What will the Krono's be superb at ? With the apps I've currently got on my iPad if I was to stick it on one of those new docking/keyboards it would probably do most of the things the Kronos does and apart from the piano/Rhodes emulation it would probably do the other things better lol
Do like what ? Does ipad offer 1 gb or ram? it has a sophisticated sequencer ? there is a decent vector synth ? does it have karma ? Does it come with a collection of superb samples (hey only that can cost you as much as an ipad) ? Can it handle 128 polyphony ? Handle 16 simultaneous effects ? Handle a physical modeling synth (that could mean trouble for your dual core) ?

I can go on for an hour if you want. Ipad might have a future but it still way to go to even reach a fraction of a workstation.

You know , its good to be able to see the forest , but in the end its the trees that make it up. The small details, things beyond our understanding that make this world so beautiful. KRONOS is KRONOS , ipad is pad, va is a va and so on.
Old 15th January 2011
  #312
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Westlaker's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by kilon View Post
I have Andy together with my motif, I listen to one of my tracks and I try really hard to find where I used Andy and where motif.
Isn't that because the Andy sounds like a VA?
















Just kidding.
Old 15th January 2011
  #313
Quote:
Originally Posted by kilon View Post
I have Andy together with my motif, I listen to one of my tracks and I try really hard to find where I used Andy and where motif.


.
hold on there! you have an ANDY!?!?!
Old 15th January 2011
  #314
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GeorgeHayduke's Avatar
 

It does look pretty slutty for a work station. A modest slickness unbeknownst to the genre.

Old 15th January 2011
  #315
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Korg you fecking suck wheres the new analogue polysynth we all wanted tutt
Old 15th January 2011
  #316
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GeorgeHayduke's Avatar
 

Hehe, well at least the 'super' monotron.
Old 15th January 2011
  #317
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I guess its a good solution for "live" performers at weddings and ****, i do like the physical modeling, but everything else you can get elsewhere... so whats the point?
Old 15th January 2011
  #318
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Westlaker's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobJB06 View Post
I guess its a good solution for "live" performers at weddings and ****, i do like the physical modeling, but everything else you can get elsewhere... so whats the point?
The live wedding performer is probably the big target audience here, but there's another, presumably smaller, demographic, which is the one to which I belong: home studio enthusiast running a computer-free setup. I'm aware of the limitations of this, but I can't tear myself away from the all-in-one concept (on the digital side, mind you); and I just don't want to bring a computer into the picture (mostly for irrational reasons).

So yes, you can get it all elsewhere, but with this, you get it all together, and without a computer. For me (and I have to imagine for some others, too), that's a big selling point.
Old 15th January 2011
  #319
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Entrainer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowfac View Post

Wusikstation - $60 (Windows only though, but they're supposedly working on a mac version)
Holy crap. I didn't know about this feature in their software.
I'm buying this for sure. It's full blown Wave Sequencing,
up to 32 samples.

Thank you!

And I'm out. Enjoy your workstation folks, seems like a nice
solution for the gigging pro.
Old 15th January 2011
  #320
Gear Nut
 
Leitmotiv's Avatar
 

Looks like a very nice instrument.

Powerful synthesis engines + sampling, memory, Karma, FX's, SSD, decent amount of controllers, built-in seq, great hi-rez touchscreen, great GUI (?), 2 joysticks, nice design... I think I'd enjoy programming this one!
Old 15th January 2011
  #321
obs
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoobyDoo555 View Post
I'm not going to break down my response to your questions - life's too short.

Suffice to say that you are wrong on some of your comments and conclusions.

However, D/As (yes, digital/anlogue convertors) are a KEY part of the sound of a hardware synth - if you don't understand why then I suggest you do some research.

I also suggest you read my response in more detail, as your answers are (a) in my responses (whether you agree with them or not) and (b) in your OWN questions.
Are you saying that the CPU is too heavily loaded to respond to IRQs from the audio hardware, and if so can you explain why buffering does not solve the problem (at the expense of latency)? An answer to this question would go a long way to dispell the belief, expressed by others in this thread and at least somewhat entertained by myself, that you are arguing from a position of ignorance.
Old 15th January 2011
  #322
Gear Maniac
 
FUBAR's Avatar
 

That is a load of crap statement, you are absolutely getting one (sounds like a song) what do you mean 'Where's the innovation'? Explain what you are talking about because you saw it at 'the NAMM' show but say nothing about it?



Your getting one WHY ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by htieksppircs View Post
Man, What a lot of opinionated bitching over an instrument you've never heard, and only a few people have even gotten their hands on. I saw it yesterday at the NAMM show, I was there for the demo, you can't play it yet. Without touching a working unit, I can absolutely say that, I'm getting one.
For the last 5 years or so at NAMM I've been saying,"Where's the innovation?".
Small technological steps forward, but no innovation. (Maybe the Euphonix MC Control surfaces). Yes, some things about it are cooler than others, but overall...
This thing blew me away!
Old 15th January 2011
  #323
Gear Head
 
KlangKunst's Avatar
 

For myself, I've felt that a full-featured DAW like Logic obviates the need for a keyboard workstation. A DAW also obviates the need for a multitimbral synth for me. And I've had no interest in ROMplers for well over a decade. My personal preference is for hardware synths with lots of knobs. No doubt softsynths can do amazing things that most hardware synths can't for a lot less money, but I prefer a tactile way of interacting with an instrument. I don't find that moving a virtual knob on a screen, especially with a mouse, suits my personal way of working. And while something like Komplete offers seemingly infinite possibilities, I prefer working within the limitations of the hardware instruments I have.

Having said all that, I am impressed with Kronos. Yes, it is not as knob-laden as I would prefer, but the touch screen just about makes up for it. Moving a virtual MS-20 patchcord with my finger is an instrument interaction I can get behind. I like what Korg has done with this workstation. They've done a good job of integrating their various technologies in what appears to be a very usable way. It sounds as good as any other VA, it's got some interesting sound-producing possibilities, and it seems to be as usable as any other workstation. Also, it's price point is very good on a capability per dollar basis compared with other workstations. At some point in the future, after version 2 comes out, I can see myself buying one.

You may now return to your regularly scheduled arguing.
Old 15th January 2011
  #324
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shadowfac's Avatar
 

Seriously, if I can find a Kronos for $350 in 10 years, I will definitely buy it.

People here are still selling their Triton Classics for $1000.
Old 15th January 2011
  #325
Quote:
Originally Posted by obs View Post
Are you saying that the CPU is too heavily loaded to respond to IRQs from the audio hardware, and if so can you explain why buffering does not solve the problem (at the expense of latency)? An answer to this question would go a long way to dispell the belief, expressed by others in this thread and at least somewhat entertained by myself, that you are arguing from a position of ignorance.
To answer your specifics - I will gladly attempt to explain where I coming from on thisthumbsup and I'm man enough to accept that I possibly hadn't explained myself as succinctly as I possibly could have.

No, I'm not saying the CPU is too heavlily loaded - that WOULD be daft (and if I was reading this, I would agree with the doubters) - after all this is the cornerstone on which computer-music is built.

I was referring to the comparison between a workstation synth and a desktop DAW system.

For example, I can't be the only person who's been using Logic or AN.OTHER sequencer/DAW that has run lots of processor-intensive soft-synths, such as Omnisphere, Korg Legacy(!) and seen the CPU processor work go through the roof. And sometimes to the point of "crunch". And that's usually just one instance. What if you're using say, 2 Omnisphere modules on different tracks?

Hypothetically (because I haven't tried it and drawing a comparison to the 9 engines in Kronos), I could build a song using just 9 cpu-intensive softsynths in Logic and get the processor to panic. Would the same happen in the Kronos?

Now, before people start to shout, I'm working on the premise that the synth and the computer are not running the same processor.
My question is why does one panic and the other doesnt? And the only answer I can come up with is that the desktop machine has considerably more to deal with - a considerably bigger OS that is managing additonal hardware and performing a great many other tasks.

Hardware machines don't tend to have this *potential* problem - their OS is designed to handle specific tasks.
The reality is that we're talking predominantly in theory here

To answer generalisations The message that seems to have been lost in translation is that what Korg seem to have accomplished (based on what we've seen - it COULD be absolutely rubbish! heh ) is pretty impressive.
Yes, the same equivalent stuff can be had in a desktop machine - it won't sound identical, but it wouldn't be far off.
Personally, I've got all the plugins to make a software Kronos equivalent, but I don't want to use them for this purpose.
I want to use the Kronos, not just for live purposes (I reluctantly use my MBP live),but because it will have a distinctive KORG sound. This whole D/A arguement - the Korg D/A will sound different to my MOTU D/As (and other manufacturer's D/As). I'm am fully aware that there is a path of components that also add to the sound, but the D/A is of vital importance.
If you don't believe me, I ask the question, why do Apogee or Prism or AN.OTHER A/D & D/A have such a following? It's because they sound different.
And that's one of the reasons why I've got loads of hardware synths. Aside from the tactile approach to hardware, I like the sound of them.
I don't know about anybody else, but if I wanted my music to sound the same as others' music, I would just use the kit my peers are using.
However, I like mixing timbres of different instruments and manufacturers in order to make MY sound.

The irony being (with reference to my being "ignorant" - don't worry, I've been called worse.... and by people I actually know!heh ) nothing I've written here should be news.........so I'm being dragged over the coals for my comments be misinterpreted. Nice. What I took offence to was the manner in which I was spoken to (with the caveat that I may have misinterpreted the nature and style of writing - this is the internet after all).
However, I'm also man enough to say that whilst I'm on this board to contribute as much as I can (after all we've all got some worth in this world), I'm also here to learn and gain knowledge - Top 10 UK records doesn't mean I know everything!! It's all about gaining more!! heh

I'm hoping this post clears up any confusion - however, please bear in mind that regardless of whether you think I'm right or wrong, it's an opinion.

Now can we please get back to some Kronos info? This thread has been derailed enough IMHO.

Dan

Last edited by ScoobyDoo555; 15th January 2011 at 11:50 AM.. Reason: edited to make a little bit more specific.
Old 15th January 2011
  #326
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeHayduke View Post
It does look pretty slutty for a work station. A modest slickness unbeknownst to the genre.
I totally agree with your comment - but then again, Korg have always had this habit of making something very slutty - the M1, O1wfd, Triton (well the black one!)
I've got to say - I was looking at a Fantom G7 (because of the screen for live work)...... and was about to hand over money.

This Korg has stopped me dead in my tracks. The screen looks phenomenal.
Not quite as vivid as the Roland, but very impressive, nevertheless.

DAnthumbsup
Old 15th January 2011
  #327
Gear Guru
 
Yoozer's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoobyDoo555 View Post
Now, before people start to shout, I'm working on the premise that the synth and the computer are not running the same processor.
Correct. The OASYS had a Pentium 4 2.8 GHz, the Kronos has an Intel Atom CPU. See Korg Forums :: View topic - Kronos vs. Oasys Modern DAWs at least have a quad core of sorts, more if you're flush with cash. The rest of that post is also pretty interesting.

Quote:
My question is why does one panic and the other doesnt? And the only answer I can come up with is that the desktop machine has considerably more to deal with - a considerably bigger OS that is managing additonal hardware and performing a great many other tasks.
You have several more background services going on, true. But loads of those services do nothing most of the time. Stuff like a mouse or a keyboard costs nothing in CPU time; it's not even a blip on the radar.

Even when browsing web pages you don't have continuous network traffic going on; you've got a big spike when it loads and parses, and then a rivulet to make animated GIFs animate and stuff.

Using a DAW also means you don't care about freezing a track temporarily to free up CPU time - after all, playing a .wav file straight from disk is far less costly than mixing. Effects chains in DAWs tend to get far longer; I don't even use sends, I just throw a bunch of inserts in series and do the wet/dry stuff with the effects themselves. Historically, workstations have had hard limits on the number of effects you get in insert/send configurations - and that's another big saver.

The polyphony counts you see in that forum post are most likely exclusive, not simultaneous. So, 96 voices of sample playback - cute, but forget adding a few analog sounds. This kind of hard limiting does not occur on DAWs who (and why not) allow you to throw as much crap as you can at the wall to see what sticks. If things stutter, you take that as a given - and freeze the tracks.

Hard limits mean that you can predict the performance. Predicting performance means that you can optimize. There are hard limits on the effects, the screen size, what happens on the screen in terms of presentation/animation, and the I/O. All the other things are not necessary, so you can pare down the OS and prioritize hard for audio until you get the most out of it.

Last edited by Yoozer; 15th January 2011 at 03:20 PM.. Reason: damn that stupid tut smiley
Old 15th January 2011
  #328
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoobyDoo555 View Post
My question is why does one panic and the other doesnt? And the only answer I can come up with is that the desktop machine has considerably more to deal with - a considerably bigger OS that is managing additonal hardware and performing a great many other tasks.
The answer is actually a bit simpler. Plugins in a software DAW are generally unpredictable, because DAWs use open standards for plugins, anyone can write a plugin, and DAW doesn't know anything about how much resources a plugin would require, because DAWs are abstracted from particular plugins, they are designed to work with whatever you load in them. So they simply cannot know where to stop, and when plugins use more resources than available, you'll get CPU overload which will result in clicking/crackling noise.
Hardware synths are closed and know exactly how much resources each of their engines require for each voice of polyphony. So they can simply put a polyphony limit on each engine, thus guaranteeing that CPU will never be overloaded.
By the way, it's easy to check how much resources exactly the OS uses for "managing additonal hardware and performing a great many other tasks". Just stop all the "real" workload like synths or audio FX and open task manager (on windows) or activity monitor (on mac) and see how much CPU your OS uses. For example, on my PC it uses 0-1% for all its non-essential background tasks. So your theory that OS uses too much resources for other tasks than audio is easily proven wrong by simple measurement: all those tasks require almost nothing from CPU.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoobyDoo555 View Post
This whole D/A arguement - the Korg D/A will sound different to my MOTU D/As (and other manufacturer's D/As). I'm am fully aware that there is a path of components that also add to the sound, but the D/A is of vital importance.
If you don't believe me, I ask the question, why do Apogee or Prism or AN.OTHER A/D & D/A have such a following? It's because they sound different.
And that's one of the reasons why I've got loads of hardware synths. Aside from the tactile approach to hardware, I like the sound of them.
I don't know about anybody else, but if I wanted my music to sound the same as others' music, I would just use the kit my peers are using.
However, I like mixing timbres of different instruments and manufacturers in order to make MY sound.
The issue here is not that we don't see the importance of DACs. It's obvious that DAC is important to the sound.
But what you hear from hardware instrument is not soloed DAC alone. You hear the sum of all elements that produce the sound, all at once. And the question is - how exactly do you discern the DAC's contribution to the sound from contributions of other elements? I.e. why are you so sure that hardware instruments sound so good NOT because they have better oscillator alogrithms, for example, but precisely because they have better DACs? Why do you attribute the difference to the DAC and not to any other element that can just as easily produce just as big difference?
And again you seem to ignore the fact that for the most part, neither synthesizer manufacturers, nor audio interface manufacturers don't make their own DACs. For example, the DAC chip in Korg OASYS is not made by Korg, it's actually Texas Instruments PCM1793 chip. MOTU also doesn't make DACs, it also uses some 3-rd party chips, etc. And actually, in many cases, even mid-range audio interfaces use more expensive and better specced DACs than most of the synths (even the top of the range models). So why computer audio interfaces use same or better DACs, yet still hardware synths may sound better? Don't you think that the difference might be not in DACs (or not just in DACs)?
Old 15th January 2011
  #329
I fear again that my comments are being taken too literally
My argument isn't that the processes taking place cripple your DAW, although I would challenge that in Logic's case, the plugins *should* know when to stop - they're "in-house" plugins presumably written by Apple. A bit of joined up thinking wouldn't go amiss here!
My comment is that in THEORY, using enough resources should put a load on the system.

I would also challenge that the whilst we agree that the DAC is an important part (or that's the impression I'm getting) - I'm attributing the importance to the DAC as in a studio the DAC (such as Prism or Apogee) will be a rather important link in the "chain", as a contributing sound "flavour" in itself.
I'm simply (and quite obviously, it would seem, TOO simply) attributing this concept to a synth.
I'm not ignoring the fact that there are only so many ADCs & DACs being made - I was taking that as a constant value in the overall equation.
I'm summising that this aspect, combined with the PCM samples & algorithms all add up to the sound. I've never NOT said that. I'm just saying that in all the equipment I've used over the years, the ADC/DAC has been a pivotal aspect in terms of sound.

However, I fear that this discussion is going nowhere.

PLease, let's get back to the subject of the Kronos as this sub-thread has hijacked enough bandwidth.
Old 15th January 2011
  #330
Gear Addict
 

I'm back and forth on this thing. I was really impressed by the videos I had watched and was already to put my 88 Key Triton ProX, Trinity Plus, MS2000, Wavestation AD and CX3 up on the Bay to be replaced with an 88 key Kronos (leaving only a Radias, X5D and Z1). I had given the Oasys a test drive a few years back and although I liked it, I didn't get that "feeling". The Kronos seems like a excellent board that could handle most of what all the other Korgs are doing now and beyond. However I use hardware synths about 40% of the time, I actually like being surrounding by them, and I'm a TV/jingle composer and using this thing will mean that my scores will have the same barely tweaked patches as so many others in the biz. Remember the 90's when you could literally name Wavestation and Trinity patches watching prime time TV?

I still use my Triton sounds quite a bit but I edit the crap out of them, as well as run them through guitar pedals, Sherman Filter, various plug ins, etc.. to create something new.

I'm glad I let the "little kid at Christmas" chill out a little because for what I do I really have no use for anything other then the sounds and some fo the editing features. I sequence everything ITB and don't gig as a keyboard player. So, 1 more Kronos out there for someone else.... Plus my Triton ProX is an enormous pain in the ass to move, let alone box and ship.
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