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1995-2001 UK Garage electric piano and organ processing. How? Keyboard Synthesizers
Old 27th December 2010
  #1
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1995-2001 UK Garage electric piano and organ processing. How?

Hi,

Even though the genre is dead, I still love UK Garage from 95 - 2001 mostly. It's name survives but describes some different (crap) music now. I'm talking about the quality stuff pre-2000.

Anyway, what I really want to know is how the producers back then processed their electric piano and organs - what type of effects were put over them. When I try it, phase and flange doesn't get me that sound. The best way to describe them is to show you:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUKdbqM1qe4

^ The stabs from 0:01. Electric piano? What processing? (above clip)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VcO8NZSGCA

^ The stabs all over the place, e.g. at 0:48? A mix of organs, synths and rhodes? (above)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKJ4yWFDhHI

^ What are the stabs in the intro? (above)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlNNr...eature=related

^ The stabs at 1.30. I can't tell what this is. (above)

If anyone can help, I'll be grateful.

I have Cubase Studio 5 with Native Instruments Komplete. Can I do this on software? Where do I begin? Thanks
Old 27th December 2010
  #2
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Some random thoughts:

* Korg Legacy Digital Collection (virtual instruments.)... probably a lot of producers at the time were using the synths that this collection emulates, and these plugs are pretty accurate reproductions.

* Resample; make a chord, render it to audio, re-import this sample into a sampler & stretch it over your keyboard range to then play parallel chords.
- also, try adding a small amount of white noise into this sound as you render it.
- also, try to render it an octave above where you want to play it, then pitch it back down in the sampler.

* D16 Decimort. Buy it.
Old 27th December 2010
  #3
stabs sounds like EMU rompler to my ears.
(which was popular at that moment)
Old 27th December 2010
  #4
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Record your stabs into a sampler with a bit of noise and perhaps lower samplerate and max 16 bit bitdepth (12 bit may sound better). Try messing with start point and amp envelope. Post your results.
Old 27th December 2010
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reptil View Post
stabs sounds like EMU rompler to my ears.
(which was popular at that moment)
+1 100% this is EMU Orbit 2 rompler also i have these sounds on many AKAI S-1000 cd's in my collection especially some library from E-Lab have big amount of these organ sounds
Old 27th December 2010
  #6
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Thanks for the advice.

I have just tried to play around with exporting a chord at a high octave and importing back into Cubase to play, and it sounds poor, so I am going to look up some of these emu synths and may even splash out on some more software (this hobby is really expensive!), and will post something a little more decent, if I can. By tonight or tomorrow, I hope to have something to show you.

Thanks so much for your advice, once again.
Old 28th December 2010
  #7
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I was thinking romplers as well.

EMU Vintage Keys, Proteus, Roland JV Series, Korg M1. Fortunately you can find many of these in Sample Library form.

The tip mentioned earlier where you play a chord an octave higher and pitch it down on your sampler is a good one, I used to do this on an akai s900 to get the character of the sampler.
Old 28th December 2010
  #8
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wherever you may find that dope organ sample, and it could come from many places, Re-Sample w/ a little bit o vinyl noise, transpose and add the tiniest bit of portamento. boom snabbity.
Old 28th December 2010
  #9
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https://www.gearslutz.com/board/attac...1&d=1293553282

Not even (trial) Decimort + some phase could help the situation. I really can't seem to even get close to the sounds I'm trying to replicate.
Attached Files

25DEC10test.mp3 (59.5 KB, 4207 views)

Old 28th December 2010
  #10
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The classic garage/2-step piano and organ sounds are both from the Korg M1. Find a multisample, or buy the Korg Legacy Edition of the M1 ($50usd).

Some romplers have similar sounds, but to my ears, the Korg M1 is what was used on the majority of those records (it's much clearer).

I think finding the right source (the M1 or a 90's rompler) is much more crucial than re-sampling, manipulating pitch, etc (although those are great advanced suggestions)
Old 28th December 2010
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by contakt321 View Post
The classic garage/2-step piano and organ sounds are both from the Korg M1. Find a multisample, or buy the Korg Legacy Edition of the M1 ($50usd).

Some romplers have similar sounds, but to my ears, the Korg M1 is what was used on the majority of those records (it's much clearer).

I think finding the right source (the M1 or a 90's rompler) is much more crucial than re-sampling, manipulating pitch, etc (although those are great advanced suggestions)
That's a great help, contakt. Why is the M1 organ sound so unique then? It seems as if the M1 is the only synth that makes this sound.

PS: If you play the first youtube video, and then press PLAY on the fourth video at the right time (cue it up, DJs), you can mix them together for a good 30 seconds. Something I realized while staring at this thread with disappointed frustration lol.
Old 28th December 2010
  #12
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Yoozer's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_agx View Post
That's a great help, contakt. Why is the M1 organ sound so unique then? It seems as if the M1 is the only synth that makes this sound.
No; both the 4- and 6-ops FM machines have similar sounds (after all, you're only hearing 2 sinewaves).

It's just that the organ in the M1 got a bit more bite and special sauce over it that makes it nice.
Old 28th December 2010
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_agx View Post
That's a great help, contakt. Why is the M1 organ sound so unique then? It seems as if the M1 is the only synth that makes this sound.
It's not that it's unique... it's just what was used to make many of those tracks.

It was specifically the M1 I had in mind when I recommended the Korg Legacy Collection in the very first response: IIRC they are the biggest selling synth ever, and by the era you've specified, these things had started to become widely available on the second hand market & therefore affordable to the garage heads.
Old 28th December 2010
  #14
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Exactly! It's not THAT unique, but of all the other romplers (from that era) the M1 outshines on both the piano and the organ.

Also, what Simon says is exactly right, there were a lot of M1's out there and it was affordable. Looking back, most 2000-20005 synth based hip-hop was done on Korg Tritons, b/c it was THE synth for that genre for that era (like the 303 for the Acid era).

(PS: Sorry for not crediting that Simonator already mentioned it).
Old 28th December 2010
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by contakt321 View Post
Exactly! It's not THAT unique, but of all the other romplers (from that era) the M1 outshines on both the piano and the organ.

Also, what Simon says is exactly right, there were a lot of M1's out there and it was affordable. Looking back, most 2000-20005 synth based hip-hop was done on Korg Tritons, b/c it was THE synth for that genre for that era (like the 303 for the Acid era).

(PS: Sorry for not crediting that Simonator already mentioned it).
Ha... no need to apologise! My comment wasn't intended as a slight at you!
Old 28th December 2010
  #16
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Hello

Long time lurker, 1st time poster.

What has been said before is true, the M1 was used a lot for Organs and Pianos, plus the Yamaha DX7 has a nice preset called MagicOrgan that is a rather good contender to the M1 Organ. Also, consider the effects used, it was more than likely a low end external unit (Alesis Midiverb, Roland ect ) rather than top notch ITB plugins, as that was what was available at the time to the Bedroom/Underground Producer. I have tried to re create these ITB, but i find it sounds better (to me) if you just buy a couple of cheep FX units and run some tracks through em, old school vibes for not much cost thumbsup

To get you started (and anyone else) i have attached a Zip of Multisamples from the M1, all culled from a friends M1 years ago using Pro Tools and saved with note names for ease of use. Included are a couple of organs and the Piano, (if this is the wrong place then please move)

Hope you enjoy

Borai
Attached Files
File Type: zip M1 MultiSounds.zip (2.44 MB, 1052 views)
Old 28th December 2010
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simonator View Post
It's not that it's unique... it's just what was used to make many of those tracks.

It was specifically the M1 I had in mind when I recommended the Korg Legacy Collection in the very first response: IIRC they are the biggest selling synth ever, and by the era you've specified, these things had started to become widely available on the second hand market & therefore affordable to the garage heads.
[email protected] to the garage heads.

Simonator, I think, if my bank account will allow, I might pick up one of these Korg Legacy products. The things is, I have no way of testing how well it matches up to the real M1. i.e. in a music store, I won't be able to sample a chord, bounce to .wav and import back. So I really am going on blind faith here. :(
Old 28th December 2010
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simonator View Post
Ha... no need to apologise! My comment wasn't intended as a slight at you!
So it was intended as a slight at me?
Old 29th December 2010
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Borai View Post
Hello

Long time lurker, 1st time poster.

What has been said before is true, the M1 was used a lot for Organs and Pianos, plus the Yamaha DX7 has a nice preset called MagicOrgan that is a rather good contender to the M1 Organ. Also, consider the effects used, it was more than likely a low end external unit (Alesis Midiverb, Roland ect ) rather than top notch ITB plugins, as that was what was available at the time to the Bedroom/Underground Producer. I have tried to re create these ITB, but i find it sounds better (to me) if you just buy a couple of cheep FX units and run some tracks through em, old school vibes for not much cost thumbsup

To get you started (and anyone else) i have attached a Zip of Multisamples from the M1, all culled from a friends M1 years ago using Pro Tools and saved with note names for ease of use. Included are a couple of organs and the Piano, (if this is the wrong place then please move)

Hope you enjoy

Borai
Thanks Borai! I appreciate this. I'm going through the samples now. It seems you have sampled some C's, E,'s and G#'s. I think that just shoots a major triad into an augmented 5th?, so I can't do "normal" chords with this, but they're good to use as one shots on their own, and to let me know how the M1 sounds.

Thanks for this.
Old 29th December 2010
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_agx View Post
[email protected] to the garage heads.
Ha... you know what I mean! Let's be real, most of this music was made by young guys in London, not in fully tricked out high-end studios.

That's certainly no bad thing- you could say the same about virtually ALL the music I like.

I love a bit of garage btw :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by the_agx View Post
I might pick up one of these Korg Legacy products. The things is, I have no way of testing how well it matches up to the real M1.
General consensus seems to be that they are absolutely spot on accurate.

I've never owned the originals, and only had a few go's on the M1 back in the day when I was at music-tech college... but to me, the 'Digital' side of the Korg Legacy collection sounds great (the 'Analogue' collection, not so much.).


Quote:
Originally Posted by the_agx View Post
So it was intended as a slight at me?
Ha... whoa now... I'm not slighting anyone... it was just a statement, since I didn't explicitly say it first time... but my first thought was 'M1', which is why I recommended that software as my first point.


Jeeeeeeez you garage heads are tetchy!!!! heh

... Takes be right back to the garage scene of '99; 'Wot you lookin at??'

Ha
Old 29th December 2010
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simonator View Post
... Takes be right back to the garage scene of '99; 'Wot you lookin at??'

Ha
lol!!!

yeah, I know what you mean re: M1 affordable to garage heads by the late 90s.

So you say the analogue patches aren't as good in the Korg Legacy bundle. What do the organ and rhodes fall under? Are they digital reconstructions? Or samples with some "analogueness"heh involved?
Old 29th December 2010
  #22
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you'll find alot of classic presets/samples in what was the free proteus X download just looked couldn't find it at emu othewise I would have included alink .. the M1 is a definite and such a deal for $49, I know that Grant Nelson used it a lot and possibly for his Bump and Flex "2 step" tracks

I used to tinker round from about 98 and back then it was all about resampling to the EMU's and Akais because we had no ADAT's or HD's I think a fair few of the underground garage tracks were created this way...memory, input and output shortages, if you were short on memory you either bounced again or cut sampling resolution so that you can get more time/memory and thereby giving samples some extra grunge.

You might be able to find an emu proteus, ESI, Utra etc and get access to the libraries in ebay if you can't find the Protues X that was once free.
Old 29th December 2010
  #23
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Yoozer's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_agx View Post
So you say the analogue patches aren't as good in the Korg Legacy bundle.
The bundles have two versions: Korg Legacy Analog and Korg Legacy Digital. One's the MS20, Polysix and Mono/Poly, the other's the Wavestation and the M1.

Quote:
What do the organ and rhodes fall under?
They come from the M1, which is very much digital. They're samples.

If all you want is the M1, you don't need to buy the entire bundle; just by itself it's only $50. See KORG USER NET :: SHOP :: KORG Legacy Collection

M1s are kind of desirable (they've got a beautiful design); the follow-up (Korg T-series) contains much of the same sample material but has more, and for some odd reason it can be had for less money. Even later modules (N-series, X-series) have quite a bit of the M1's samples in there still, and virtually all of 'm have that particular piano and organ sound, so if you insist on hardware but your wallet doesn't, try that.
Old 29th December 2010
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoozer View Post
The bundles have two versions: Korg Legacy Analog and Korg Legacy Digital. One's the MS20, Polysix and Mono/Poly, the other's the Wavestation and the M1.
thumbsup


@agx, most people seem to agree that the digital collection is pretty much indistinguishable from the synths they emulate.

Conversely, the majority opinion is that the analogue collection do not sound identical to the synths that they are based on.
... People are generally divided into two camps:
- They don't sound like the hardware, but are good in their own right.
- They don't sound like the hardware, and are plain rubbish.
... BUT, it must be said, I've read opinions from people who own the real hardware, saying that when they've matched the settings between the hardware & software, in many cases it is actually very close.

... blah blah blah... the point is that you don't need to worry with the digital collection. It sounds proper.
Old 29th December 2010
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_agx View Post
Thanks Borai! I appreciate this. I'm going through the samples now. It seems you have sampled some C's, E,'s and G#'s. I think that just shoots a major triad into an augmented 5th?, so I can't do "normal" chords with this, but they're good to use as one shots on their own, and to let me know how the M1 sounds.

Thanks for this.
Yeah sorry i forgot to mention that,
they were recorded back in the days when samplers had small amounts of memory, i just stretched them over the keyboard (easy to do in Kontakt or something), and lived with the results, you could also tweek the release and loop points if needed. But nowadays i use the Plug in rather than these, they where just sitting on an old drive and thought they could be a nice starting point as you say, but if you can get the Korg M1 plugin for 50 bucks then i reckon go for it. I think the main diffrence is the AD conversion on the Keyboard itself and the way you interface with it, i find the Plugin can sound a little too perfect (this is where the old FX boxes come in handy) But the keyboard is digital and uses samples, so it makes sense that if a Plugin is going to sound anything like the original machine its based on then the M1 would be a good place to start.

Borai
Old 29th December 2010
  #26
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AGX.

All of these sounds almost definitely came only from hardware & samples. I would say most sampling. You're not going to get anywhere close with the NI stuff. The people who make it have probably never even heard of garage.

The korg legacy digital stuff is great. I used them on my productions all the time. However that's not to say that most of your sounds are going to come from there though... this music simply isn't made with much synthesis.

People apparently don't like to hear it, but most of the underground techno/uk stuff isn't done with synths, but is based around work with samples. Aside from brostep of course. That's all massive.
Difference between people like burial and the dubstep hoards is that it's not synth work but sampling.

Anyway in terms of positive thing to say... use D16s stuff, sounds great (decimort etc). Get repitching, sampling dirty sections of etc.
Old 29th December 2010
  #27
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oh...for fk sake, you guys!!! heh

too much wealth of information here, I am kinda unsure whether the Korg Legacy software will do it for me now. The thing is, I can't test it in the store. I just have to pay and see.

So you are saying that (well, Yoozer is) all I need is the Korg Legy Clxn M1? If that's so, 50 bucks is prob like £35 so that's affordable. I jus hope it does the job. I will see if Digital Village has it (hard/software music store).

thanks for all the support, guys.

EDIT: Bedtime now. I will check out that Korg User site that Yoozer linked me to. It seems kinda...bootleg?? but 50 bucks??!! As long as they aren't Nigerian credit card fraudsters!!!
Old 29th December 2010
  #28
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All you really need are the samples that someone posted earlier in the thread. Toss them into a sampler and transpose across the keys. This is likely how a good portion of people in that era were working.

OR

Find those free Proteus samples someone mentioned

OR

Buy the Korg Legacy Edition for $50

OR

Buy an actual M1 or M1R for $200-300.

More importantly, just get working. It sounds like you are trying to capture that spirit (which is great!), part of that spirit is just using what you have and making it happen.
Old 29th December 2010
  #29
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my fav. style

i joined just to say thank you for the M1 multisamples.

i literally have been looking for ages, literally.

theses are great, and if anyone has anymore I am sure I have some drum samples or something that would be of value. Not going to post in this thread tho to keep it on track.

THANK YOU
Old 29th December 2010
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_agx View Post
oh...for fk sake, you guys!!! heh

too much wealth of information here, I am kinda unsure whether the Korg Legacy software will do it for me now. The thing is, I can't test it in the store. I just have to pay and see.

So you are saying that (well, Yoozer is) all I need is the Korg Legy Clxn M1? If that's so, 50 bucks is prob like £35 so that's affordable. I jus hope it does the job. I will see if Digital Village has it (hard/software music store).

thanks for all the support, guys.

EDIT: Bedtime now. I will check out that Korg User site that Yoozer linked me to. It seems kinda...bootleg?? but 50 bucks??!! As long as they aren't Nigerian credit card fraudsters!!!

the korg site is totally legit and the only place you will find those plugs to buy in the uk.. AFAIK dv247 will not have any of the KL collections any more.
resampling chords is a must and if you own something like Kontakt you can blend up and stack organs/elec pianos in the K4 library with different filters and pitch tunings to get garagey/deep house keys and chords def another one worth tryingthumbsup
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