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synthesis: Reaktor vs Max/Msp vs Max for Live: differences, pros and cons?
Old 11th June 2010
  #1
Gear Nut
 

synthesis: Reaktor vs Max/Msp vs Max for Live: differences, pros and cons?

I recently read an article on Sound on Sound praising Max for Live as the ultimate tool for synthesis and disregarding Max/Msp as a cumbersome obsolete piece of software just good for academic geeks. I am recently getting more and more interested in synthesis and would like to know what you would recommend as a program to stretch the boundaries of sound. I am not looking for a program to use live - only in the studio and I am not scared of long programming scripts, since I spend several years programming in Matlab and C (in another field of science). But of course time is gold and if any of the three softwares presents major advantages on the other ones I'd like to know.
What is your personal opinion on Reaktor/Max Msp/Max for Live and what would you recommend? what are the pros and the cons?

Thanks in advance!
Old 11th June 2010
  #2
Lives for gear
 

you'll find some good info here (also, a lot already posted. use the search function)

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/elect...d-modular.html

edit:

also, to use max4live and get the most out of it you'll need to know max/msp right? unless you are just gonna download ready made max4live objects.

max msp is super powerful as is reaktor. whichever interface you are comfortable with is the one to go for. they are very different. both sound great adn do lot's of amazing things.
Old 11th June 2010
  #3
Gear Maniac
It sounds like a pretty stupid article, since to get any benefit out of Max for Live as opposed to vanilla Live you'll need to know Max/MSP.
Unless, as said, you plan to use other peoples patches/devices.
I haven't used reactor much, but my impression is that it's components are more pre-made musical devices in a modular environment, whereas Max/MSP is more on a mathematical/programming level - with of course musical abstractions in there too.
If you can program C the learning curve will not have as bigger impact - if you know about DSP as well. Basically I think Reactor will have more instant gratification but Max/MSP will in the long run be able to open more doors and be more versatile.

Max for Live - means there's no more tinkering creating stuff from scratch. But yes to use it well you'd need to know Max/MSP.
I could say you can do most things in Max for Live that you can in Max/MSP but that a lot of processing wasted if you're not using the Live aspect.
Old 11th June 2010
  #4
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ignatius View Post
you'll find some good info here (also, a lot already posted. use the search function)

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/elect...d-modular.html

edit:

also, to use max4live and get the most out of it you'll need to know max/msp right? unless you are just gonna download ready made max4live objects.

max msp is super powerful as is reaktor. whichever interface you are comfortable with is the one to go for. they are very different. both sound great adn do lot's of amazing things.

Thanks a lot for the reply and for the link, I'll search the forum for other posts! I know Kyma is excellent, but it's way beyond my budget unfortunately :-(
I don't know the difference between Max Msp and max for live but I assume you do not need to know Max Msp to use Max for Live (at least the SOS article seemed to suggest Max for Live is much easier to use and powerful at the same time, but maybe this is true if you limit yourself to ready made objects).
I am installing Reaktor right now, so I guess I'll stick to this one for the moment

cheers
Val
Old 11th June 2010
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doublethumb View Post
Thanks a lot for the reply and for the link, I'll search the forum for other posts! I know Kyma is excellent, but it's way beyond my budget unfortunately :-(
I don't know the difference between Max Msp and max for live but I assume you do not need to know Max Msp to use Max for Live (at least the SOS article seemed to suggest Max for Live is much easier to use and powerful at the same time, but maybe this is true if you limit yourself to ready made objects).
I am installing Reaktor right now, so I guess I'll stick to this one for the moment
wasn't suggesting you get kyma.. i posted the link to the kyma comparison thread because max/msp/reaktor etc all get brought up and discussed.

max4live is max/msp.. they are the same thing.. max4live is just integrated into live so you can edit your max patches from w/in live. but it is really elegantly done and works really well but it is no different that max msp except w/max4live you are tied to live and w/regular max/msp you are not and you can make all the stand lone apps you want etc.

btw - there is a userlibrary for max4live devices.. very cool.

www.maxforlive.com - The Free Max for Live Device Library



Old 11th June 2010
  #6
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pechnatunk View Post
my impression is that it's components are more pre-made musical devices in a modular environment, whereas Max/MSP is more on a mathematical/programming level - with of course musical abstractions in there too.
If you can program C the learning curve will not have as bigger impact - if you know about DSP as well. Basically I think Reactor will have more instant gratification but Max/MSP will in the long run be able to open more doors and be more versatile.
This was probably more true circa Reaktor 4, but since Reaktor introduced the core level it is every bit as capable as Max/MSP, and in some cases allows for even lower level programming than Max. Of course, max has the advantage of dealing with encapsulated java script, as well as providing the ability to code your own objects in C -but at this point you're not really in the max environment anymore anyway. In terms of what you can build using the supplied modules, Reaktor now provides direct access to very low level memory functions etc., and is much more powerful than people give it credit for. Max got a foothold in the academic arena early on, but I think at least for synthesis it has been surpassed now.

Reaktor also has the benefit of an audio engine that actually sounds decent. This is of course a matter of taste, but I really dislike Max's sound. The "MSP" portion of max was added almost as an afterthought at some point in the 80's, and hasn't really been revised since then. From the start Max was intended as a data processing application primarily (it initially handled only numbers with no audio support at all, basically functioning as a very complex midi tool), whereas Reaktor was designed for audio from the ground up. Especially if you're interested in simulating anything analog, Reaktor can get you there pretty quick but Max is like pulling teeth.

That said, if you want to do anything involving video, interactive applications, or especially interfacing with external hardware via micro controllers etc., Max is definitely the way to go. But I really think Reaktor is the better choice for synthesis these days.

EDIT: for the record I own and use both applications frequently, and have had extensive formal training in both. One of my favorite things to do is actually use them synergistically -I'll often do my algorithmic work in Max, and then pipe the numbers via midi or osc into Reaktor for the synthesis. I wasn't trying to knock Max; I say learn both
Old 11th June 2010
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbartee View Post
Reaktor also has the benefit of an audio engine that actually sounds decent. This is of course a matter of taste, but I really dislike Max's sound.
Yeah, there are lots of details in Reaktor that correspond to how the best soft synths work (not surprisingly, coming from NI). For example, it has a big collection of very good envelopes with nice exponential curves, and similarly for filters: a bunch of good ones that are just what you'd expect to find in a commercial synth. It has built-in support for bandlimited wavetables. It makes stuff you program sound "expensive" right off the bat.

The core level in Reaktor is very nicely done but I find it to be too time-consuming to program there. Of course, you don't have to very often. The interaction between the core and macro levels is pretty awkward in some ways. 'course, Max has its own share of similar problems, mostly in terms of evaluation order and some timing difficulties.

I was really surprised at how stable Reaktor was. I still can't get my head around the idea that it's more stable than some of their much simpler products.

M4L though contains a whole area of functionality that Reaktor simply can't replicate, namely, control over Live via an API. It also permits communication between patches that are running under Live. Between those two things I've been able to put together some really nice control objects that have made working in Live a lot faster for me. This stuff is all out of bounds for Reaktor, which is confined to synthesis.

I think if you're mostly into control (MIDI, OSC, Live's API, etc.) then M4L is the way to go. If mostly into synthesis, ... tough call. For more standard stuff, Reaktor; for really wacky experimental stuff, maybe Max.

-synthoid
Old 11th June 2010
  #8
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by synthoid View Post
The interaction between the core and macro levels is pretty awkward in some ways.
Completely agree here. Interfacing core with macro couldn't be more obtuse. Once you get the hang of it and commit some of the idiosyncrasies to muscle memory it gets a little easier, but I'm really hoping (naively ) for Reaktor 6 to improve some of these workflow issues.


Quote:
M4L though contains a whole area of functionality that Reaktor simply can't replicate, namely, control over Live via an API. It also permits communication between patches that are running under Live. Between those two things I've been able to put together some really nice control objects that have made working in Live a lot faster for me. This stuff is all out of bounds for Reaktor, which is confined to synthesis.

I think if you're mostly into control (MIDI, OSC, Live's API, etc.) then M4L is the way to go. If mostly into synthesis, ... tough call. For more standard stuff, Reaktor; for really wacky experimental stuff, maybe Max.
I'm not a Live user, so I'll take your word for it; it sounds like a pretty sweet setup really.

To the OP though: since you are not interested in live use, I wouldn't bother working with Live. All it will do is add a lot of overhead for stuff you probably don't need.

Another thing to consider is SuperCollider. If you have a background in matlab and C you should be able to pick it up really quick, and it can honestly be much more efficient than Max or Reaktor for certain things, since a few lines of code can get you the equivalent of 20 boxes tediously hooked together with lines. It also sounds pretty good, better than Max I'd say.
Old 11th June 2010
  #9
Gear Nut
 

But how do i learn how to use them? Goodness, I have a degree in physics and have been into music for the past 6 years (so it's a relatively new field for me) and I found it easier to find information (and learn) about quantum field theory than about audio processing, sound engineering etc etc
I looked for some tutorials on max msp and they're pretty dreadful. All they show is how to connect "visually" oscillators ?! like drawing arrows from one box to another one...I was laughing at the video.
C and matlab? but you got thick books to learn from...there's a whole logic behind them and there's a theory. once you get that it's quite straightforward. it takes time to build and test a complex routine in C, but you know where to find the information.
I am not saying things don't have to be intuitive, since I make my own music and art should be an intuitive and inspirational thing first of all, but when it comes to software you cannot really learn it "empirically" right? somebody here mentioned "formal training" in max msp. where do you get that?
Old 11th June 2010
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doublethumb View Post
But how do i learn how to use them? Goodness, I have a degree in physics and have been into music for the past 6 years (so it's a relatively new field for me) and I found it easier to find information (and learn) about quantum field theory than about audio processing, sound engineering etc etc
I looked for some tutorials on max msp and they're pretty dreadful. All they show is how to connect "visually" oscillators ?! like drawing arrows from one box to another one...I was laughing at the video.
C and matlab? but you got thick books to learn from...there's a whole logic behind them and there's a theory. once you get that it's quite straightforward. it takes time to build and test a complex routine in C, but you know where to find the information.
I am not saying things don't have to be intuitive, since I make my own music and art should be an intuitive and inspirational thing first of all, but when it comes to software you cannot really learn it "empirically" right? somebody here mentioned "formal training" in max msp. where do you get that?
Well, in my case the training was all hands on, learning from the masters so to speak.

I got my Bachelor's degree in electro-acoustic composition at the Oberlin Conservatory. The program there was heavily max-centric, and I studied under Tom Lopez and Gary Lee Nelson. I can't even remember how many classes I took focusing on various aspects of Max programming, but it was a lot.

I did my masters at Cal Arts where I had the pleasure of working with Martijn Zwartjes, part of the NI team that worked on Reaktor 5. His understanding of DSP and of course Reaktor was truly astounding. I feel like I only absorbed 1/1000th of what he had to offer, but them's the breaks I guess.

Currently I'm working on my Ph.D. at Brown University, where I'm studying with Todd Winkler and Joseph Rovan, who have both been using Max since the very early days of its initial release.

There's no substitute for a structured education imo. If you're really serious about it you could look into computer music / new media programs at universities. Some places offer master classes and such without having to enroll for a degree etc., but of course they cost.

Obviously this isn't entirely necessary though. You are right that there's a profound lack of good texts covering these softwares, but they do have very active user communities in the form of the NI and Cycling 74 user forums. These are invaluable.

FWIW, Todd wrote a book back in the day about Max programming. It's somewhat Jitter focused and a little dated now, but it's still worth reading in my opinion: Amazon.com: Composing Interactive Music: Techniques and Ideas…

Also, if you can download the Max evaluation demo, the best way to learn imo is to jump into Cycling 74's extensive collection of tutorials that are included in all copies of Max. A combination of these tutorials, Todd's book, posing questions to the forums, empirical experimentation, and deconstructing user patches will get you pretty far.
Old 11th June 2010
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doublethumb View Post
there's a whole logic behind them and there's a theory. once you get that it's quite straightforward.
Same thing with Max/MSP, etc.

I use PureData (Pd) myself, which is a freely distributable Max/MSP clone made by, Miller S. Puckette, the original Max developer. He also has a very good book (freely available) on computer music theory with all examples given as Pd patches:

The Theory and Technique of Electronic Music

It's a great way to start, IMO.
Old 11th June 2010
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowfac View Post
Same thing with Max/MSP, etc.

I use PureData (Pd) myself, which is a freely distributable Max/MSP clone made by, Miller S. Puckette, the original Max developer. He also has a very good book (freely available) on computer music theory with all examples given as Pd patches:

The Theory and Technique of Electronic Music

It's a great way to start, IMO.
I COMPLETELY forgot about this. Puckette's book is definitely a good way to go. And, as you said, it's completely free, which is just awesome.

I have several colleagues who swear by Pd. I never got into it myself, but the important thing here is that most everything in Puckette's book (and stuff built in Pd in general) is easily transferable to Max, if you're set on using Max.
Old 11th June 2010
  #13
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synthoid's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doublethumb View Post
But how do i learn how to use them? Goodness, I have a degree in physics and have been into music for the past 6 years (so it's a relatively new field for me) and I found it easier to find information (and learn) about quantum field theory than about audio processing, sound engineering etc etc
The best book I know of on the subject is Curtis Road's "The Computer Music Tutorial". It's a fairly exhaustive treatment of synthesis techniques, and the notation that he uses throughout the book to specify each technique corresponds pretty directly to a patching language like Max/MSP or Kyma, so that it's easy to imagine how to go from what's in the book to those languages. Given a physics background, this stuff will be easy for you. The most difficult part is a bit of not very advanced signal processing; the rest is just learning what the synthesis techniques are and what they sound like.

-synthoid
Old 11th June 2010
  #14
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there are tutorials built in to Max/Msp. basic stuff like building an FM synth, a sample player etc etc. to get the hang of it.. then you can maybe download other people's patches and take them apart and see what's going on.

there is a big learning curve (especially if you aren't familiar w/any kind of programming) if you are going to build your own app.. and depending on what your goal is it may take you a year or so to figure out, build it, modify it, improve it etc to get it to where you have the execution = your concept.

but if you want to build a bunch of small devices like plug ins you might have an easier time reaching your goal...

w/reaktor.. keep in mind there are 1000's of amazing ensembles in the user library already and lot's of starting places... i think reaktor is maybe a little easier to get going on than max but i'm sure some people will disagree w/that.

back to max/msp - do you want to build stuff like these pics? you should hunt down Twerk's max/msp patches as well to get an idea of the stuff you can build. the filters in camel toe, burnt toast are friggin amazing.. drool string ukelele is nuts as well.

here's a link actually:

Software



Attached Thumbnails
synthesis: Reaktor vs Max/Msp vs Max for Live: differences, pros and cons?-ae.jpg   synthesis: Reaktor vs Max/Msp vs Max for Live: differences, pros and cons?-ae2.jpg  
Old 11th June 2010
  #15
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbartee View Post
Well, in my case the training was all hands on, learning from the masters so to speak.

I got my Bachelor's degree in electro-acoustic composition at the Oberlin Conservatory. The program there was heavily max-centric, and I studied under Tom Lopez and Gary Lee Nelson. I can't even remember how many classes I took focusing on various aspects of Max programming, but it was a lot.

I did my masters at Cal Arts where I had the pleasure of working with Martijn Zwartjes, part of the NI team that worked on Reaktor 5. His understanding of DSP and of course Reaktor was truly astounding. I feel like I only absorbed 1/1000th of what he had to offer, but them's the breaks I guess.

Currently I'm working on my Ph.D. at Brown University, where I'm studying with Todd Winkler and Joseph Rovan, who have both been using Max since the very early days of its initial release.

There's no substitute for a structured education imo. If you're really serious about it you could look into computer music / new media programs at universities. Some places offer master classes and such without having to enroll for a degree etc., but of course they cost.

Obviously this isn't entirely necessary though. You are right that there's a profound lack of good texts covering these softwares, but they do have very active user communities in the form of the NI and Cycling 74 user forums. These are invaluable.

FWIW, Todd wrote a book back in the day about Max programming. It's somewhat Jitter focused and a little dated now, but it's still worth reading in my opinion: Amazon.com: Composing Interactive Music: Techniques and Ideas…

Also, if you can download the Max evaluation demo, the best way to learn imo is to jump into Cycling 74's extensive collection of tutorials that are included in all copies of Max. A combination of these tutorials, Todd's book, posing questions to the forums, empirical experimentation, and deconstructing user patches will get you pretty far.
Lucky you....that sounds like a marvellous training. yes, I know that learning from the masters is the best thing. I had to carry on a research project after my degree and collaborated with a post-doctoral student and I learnt so much from him in a few months! No book could have taught me all that information in such a short time. Unfortunately I do not think I cannot enroll on any course without having to pay a lot of money since I already have a degree in another subject, but the information you give here is precious.

I looked at Pure Data as well and at the Miller-Puckett book...don't know how better or worse that program is compared to Max Msp, but the book is certainly better than the tutorials I saw online on Max Msp.

Thanks!
Val
Old 11th June 2010
  #16
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doublethumb View Post
Lucky you....that sounds like a marvellous training. yes, I know that learning from the masters is the best thing. I had to carry on a research project after my degree and collaborated with a post-doctoral student and I learnt so much from him in a few months! No book could have taught me all that information in such a short time. Unfortunately I do not think I cannot enroll on any course without having to pay a lot of money since I already have a degree in another subject, but the information you give here is precious.

I looked at Pure Data as well and at the Miller-Puckett book...don't know how better or worse that program is compared to Max Msp, but the book is certainly better than the tutorials I saw online on Max Msp.

Thanks!
Val
I think it's a double edged sword. Learning from the masters is great for those of us lucky enough to be able to, but the situation we have now is like some kind of weird apprentice-based system in which only a privileged few have access to good information. All this does is create unnecessary entrance barriers for people who might otherwise learn a lot and produce wonderful things.

The few books that exist on the subject seem to have been almost self conscious attempts to alleviate this problem by collecting what was previously available only in disparate, fragmented forms, or direct from the horse's mouth, into integrated, readily available documents. I think there needs to be a lot more of this. I have a huge amount of respect for Puckett making his recent work freely available as well.

You can't really go wrong with Pd -I've heard arguments that it's actually better than Max in some respects. It's certainly more modern (architecturally - the GUI is pretty horrendous imo).
Old 11th June 2010
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ignatius View Post
back to max/msp - do you want to build stuff like these pics?
Are these the Autechre patches?
Old 11th June 2010
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbartee View Post
Are these the Autechre patches?
yeah. i named them "ae" and "ae2".. i think there are more of them on line some place.. also there's some pics of crazy ones at richard devine's site in the gallery section. there's lot's of crazy ones if you google for pics.

Richard _ Devine . >

i messed w/max/msp a long time ago and wasn't my thing (maybe i'm lazy and stupid) so i gave up on it. but when i see the pics of the GUI's of these patches i just imagine they are so specific to the builder's needs and i imagine that is comforting.
Old 12th June 2010
  #19
Gear Nut
 

OMG, thanks for the link!! :-)


Quote:
Originally Posted by ignatius View Post
there are tutorials built in to Max/Msp. basic stuff like building an FM synth, a sample player etc etc. to get the hang of it.. then you can maybe download other people's patches and take them apart and see what's going on.

there is a big learning curve (especially if you aren't familiar w/any kind of programming) if you are going to build your own app.. and depending on what your goal is it may take you a year or so to figure out, build it, modify it, improve it etc to get it to where you have the execution = your concept.

but if you want to build a bunch of small devices like plug ins you might have an easier time reaching your goal...

w/reaktor.. keep in mind there are 1000's of amazing ensembles in the user library already and lot's of starting places... i think reaktor is maybe a little easier to get going on than max but i'm sure some people will disagree w/that.

back to max/msp - do you want to build stuff like these pics? you should hunt down Twerk's max/msp patches as well to get an idea of the stuff you can build. the filters in camel toe, burnt toast are friggin amazing.. drool string ukelele is nuts as well.

here's a link actually:

Software



Old 16th June 2010
  #20
Gear Guru
 
Muser's Avatar
Synth Edit and Synth Maker look good too.
I have heard people doing very good work on those. but I use a Mac.

I got interested in the potential of PD for building a Midi central control station for midi equipment. like a cross between and advance Midi router and a Zyklus system. but I'm not sure how easy or hard it will be to do.. or how hard it will be to make additions as I go along.

I think I am going to use an old PC version of Logic instead, because I would know how to do that in Logic already..

I don't know if I could justify investing the time in learning the other systems.
but I would like to. :-)

oh well.. so little time and so many rabbit holes. o O o
Old 16th June 2010
  #21
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OurDarkness's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doublethumb View Post
I recently read an article on Sound on Sound praising Max for Live as the ultimate tool for synthesis and disregarding Max/Msp as a cumbersome obsolete piece of software just good for academic geeks. I am recently getting more and more interested in synthesis and would like to know what you would recommend as a program to stretch the boundaries of sound. I am not looking for a program to use live - only in the studio and I am not scared of long programming scripts, since I spend several years programming in Matlab and C (in another field of science). But of course time is gold and if any of the three softwares presents major advantages on the other ones I'd like to know.
What is your personal opinion on Reaktor/Max Msp/Max for Live and what would you recommend? what are the pros and the cons?

Thanks in advance!
Since you are familiar with C, I suggest that you take a look in CSound.
Old 16th June 2010
  #22
Gear Nut
 

i use both, prefer reaktor just cause ive used it forever... in the end most of the ensembles, max patches are all just small variations of the same **** which is why i try not to get caught up in the academia of building patches from scratch. although i find editing patches in max to be a bit easier on the eyes from the interface... honestly though, max4 live is great but most of the tools ive seen with it have been around in reaktor forever. for me one of the main advantages of max integration in ableton is the ability to control other external technology in new ways
Old 16th June 2010
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muser View Post
Synth Edit and Synth Maker look good too.
every, and i mean EVERY, single synthedit plug in i've ever tried to use worked for like 20 minutes then "broke" and just stopped working forever. i gave up on all those long ago because they are almost always crap. max/msp - reaktor plugs/instruments are usually more "serious" and robust
Old 17th June 2010
  #24
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Muser's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ignatius View Post
every, and i mean EVERY, single synthedit plug in i've ever tried to use worked for like 20 minutes then "broke" and just stopped working forever. i gave up on all those long ago because they are almost always crap. max/msp - reaktor plugs/instruments are usually more "serious" and robust
oh dear, that would be pretty tiresome. I haven't tried them but some are very good work. in sonic terms. It would be a shame if they broke that easily.
Old 17th June 2010
  #25
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doublethumb View Post
I recently read an article on Sound on Sound praising Max for Live as the ultimate tool for synthesis and disregarding Max/Msp as a cumbersome obsolete piece of software just good for academic geeks. I am recently getting more and more interested in synthesis and would like to know what you would recommend as a program to stretch the boundaries of sound.
Could you post a link to the SoundOnSound article you refer to, or better still (given that the SOS site is pay-for-view) quote the bit where this is said ?

I find it hard to believe that SOS would publish something so self-evidently absurd ... I think you have probably just misread and/or misunderstood it ...

In any case the 'product review' of MaxForLive in February SOS (at least from what I could read in the free online part of the article) certainly doesn't appear to say that at all ... and for good reason .. as has already been stated here :
M4L _IS_ Max/MSP !!!

If you just want to use other people's creations you just buy MaxForLive, if you want to modify them or roll your own you need a Max/MSP license which allows you to open and modify existing MaxForLive patches or program your own from scratch inside Live or inside stand alone Max/MSP. This is a very, very wonderful thing.

As for the second part of your question, the main question you have to ask is : do you want to create synthesisers, or do you want to create music ?

If the former, there are many programs for this, as has already been discussed here ... Reaktor is fantastic (though NI's real commitment to developing it seems somewhat unclear at present, which is very worrying) and there are a wealth of other choices depending on what you want to do ... Max/MSP is one of those choices, though if you want to "just" do the actual pure synthesis bit, and are not concerned with making music with this synthesis, then it is probably not the best choice (but even there, again it depends on what sort of synthesis you want to do)

If you want to create music, having control over 'low level' sound elements and 'high level' control and compositional elements, then, without a doubt MaxForLive+Max/MSP is the way to go.

The wonderful thing about MaxForLive from a Max/MSP programming perspective is that it allows Live to become the framework for routing &, if needed, the timeline, for Max/MSP elements ... this both _enormously_ simplifies, and makes more powerful, Max/MSP programming ... especially when you are starting out

You can take a few extremely simple little M4L patches (for example from the maxforlive.com library) and string them together in a Live Effects chain to see what they are doing, then start opening them up and modifying them, cutting and pasting bits from one to another, and very soon you are making your own patches ... and (and this is all-important) _within_ a framework that is generating music in realtime with all the softsynths & plug-ins that you want ...

That is the beauty of MaxForLive ... you can start out making an abstract composition within Live that is uniquely using MaxForLive granular synthesis, then use state of the art EQ, compression and reverb plug-ins to sculpt it, then decide that your electro-acoustic masterpiece needs a funky drummer, call up Toontrack or whatever and play your drums with an algorithmic rhythm MIDI generator that you whip up inside M4L on the fly.

IMNSHO nothing has ever come close to this sort of flexibility and power for 'open form' music making, building from the 'atoms' of the sound up to the 'cityscapes' of the compositional structure and everything in between ... M4L is THE ****

... and, if you are heavily into synthesis, M4L + Reaktor is just _ridiculously_ creatively inspiring ...
Old 17th June 2010
  #26
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbartee View Post
Some places offer master classes and such without having to enroll for a degree etc., but of course they cost.
Do you have any reccomendations?

Thanks!
Old 17th June 2010
  #27
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by disco judas View Post
Do you have any reccomendations?

Thanks!
Well I don't know about recommending any of them because I haven't taken them! But I can certainly point you towards some links:

Max/MSP/Jitter Full Week Intensive Course

Monday, July 20 2009 | CNMAT

WWW Ircam: This Month

These are all completed already or booked, but keep an eye on these places for next year's sessions.
Old 1st July 2010
  #28
Quote:
Originally Posted by OurDarkness View Post
Since you are familiar with C, I suggest that you take a look in CSound.
CSound and C are completely different languages. it is not called CSound because it would be similar to C. it is not.

i would suggest supercollider to someone familiar with C ...
Old 1st July 2010
  #29
Lives for gear
 
kilon's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by clorax hurd View Post
CSound and C are completely different languages. it is not called CSound because it would be similar to C. it is not.

i would suggest supercollider to someone familiar with C ...
why mess with c syntax ? python works perfectly with csound if you want to bring and ultra powerful programming language which is extremely easy to use to CSOUND.

Not to exclude that there are gazillion more presets for CSOUND than there are for supercollider. The good thing about supercollider is that is real time though, but there are real time GUIs for CSOUND as well.
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