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Music vs. sound? Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 6th April 2010
  #241
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grumphh's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beermaster View Post
Ha hA HA HA HA !!! superb..... very funny.



WAAAaaa Haaaa HA .... even better ! You're such a Joker grumph.

... problem is that part of me thinks that you might have been serious...?
History.

Hint, books about other subjects than music theory do exist.
Old 6th April 2010
  #242
Gear Guru
 
henryrobinett's Avatar
They discredited many things about us. None of it true. Why take music theory as your cause? Theory is in everything. You can't avoid it.

Listen, I'm not in a dialogue. I think you are a joke. You are in a debate. I am not. Therefore you have to win at the debate, regardless what is being said. This makes discussing anything impossible, so I can't read your posts. Sorry. If you want to talk, I'll talk. But if you're going to attack and have to BE RIGHT in all things, I'm not talking to you -- you know who.
Old 6th April 2010
  #243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beermaster View Post
I really find it bizarre that some people frown on learning.

Why has sound taken more of a front seat compared to the music ?

.. a lot of people are either too focused on the idea of 'fame' and being a 'producer' that they don't like to explore how to get there or admit that perhaps there is more to it than what they're doing or they simply don't know that they know nothing.
In certain genres its all about the production methods because its solely and purely about groove... There are a hundred different genres where melody/harmony/'music' primes, but those in which it doesnt really dont need to benefit from the emotional weight of melody's or harmonies. Again, if its melody and harmony someones after theyre easily provided for somewhere else... but the theory behind an incredible groove takes just as long to master as an instrument - in fact, in many of these genres people are unknowingly studying percussion theory and becoming pretty damn good engineers as a bonus.

imho there arent that many types of music that have a rhythmic structure as complicated as those found in some types of electronic music, with the only one really coming to mind being Jazz/Bossa and co. And thats an important point here - good electronic music sounds improvised, fresh and liberating - Techno to my ears is the Jazz of the electronic age. The musicians are electronically trained though, not musically (and im not talking about the 95% of bull**** thats being put out - its the 5% were focussing on). Two sides of the same coin, with the electronic producer being closer to an engineer and the jazzman being closer to an 'artiste'. Both could benefit from the huge amounts of knowledge both have.
Old 6th April 2010
  #244
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grumphh's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
Listen, I'm not in a dialogue. I think you are a joke.
Oohh. Personal attacks. Nice style.

Quote:
You are in a debate. I am not.
By posting you automatically participate.
Quote:
Therefore you have to win at the debate, regardless what is being said.
That may be your idea of a debate, not mine.
Quote:

This makes discussing anything impossible, so I can't read your posts. Sorry. If you want to talk, I'll talk. But if you're going to attack and have to BE RIGHT in all things, I'm not talking to you -- you know who.
Erm, the ones who attacked are still the theory proponents who for some reason can't accept that some of us reject their precious theory for our own musical purposes.

I mean, how would you feel if an indian classical musician came to you and said that you really are limited in what you do (and he would be right, you are limited, i mean, you don't even play pure intervals but use a tempered scale...) and that you need to see the light through high level studies of classical indian music?

Somewhat offensive?

Or would you just accept that his mastery of ancient theory is superior to yours and that you therefore must study classical indian music?

...yeah, sure - ooh so tolerant, eh? heh
Old 6th April 2010
  #245
Gear Nut
 

Some articles to further explore and a couple thoughts

Here's some articles to explore this subject further:

Wendy Carlos Resources
Wendy Carlos Resources
http://www.yourbrainonmusic.com/
The Yoga of Sound

In a long short ramble (you could write and people have written books about this):

Music is physics as perceived by our consciousness. Vibrations moving until they hit the person and our brains perceive the "sound". Our brains like to find patterns, so when "sounds" arrive in a pattern (a harmonic one, a time based one etc..) our brains might start labeling what we are hearing as "music".

There are purely physical harmonic relationships that cause the brain to ascertain the distinction of something being music quicker than others and this is completely dependent on context. Out of what is in essence a very large amount of harmonic relationships, humans throughout time have developed cultural training as to what harmonic relationships we find "musical".
And humans are not alone in this. Whales sing songs and learn each others songs and learn the "new" songs from other "whale cultures" so they can employ novelty to impress mates. - really this is crazy read up on it!

But whales, humans etc.. all are employing harmonic relationships in some sort of time based pattern (which does include people like cage trying to deliberately not be cyclical or not have a "pattern"). I think you can learn a whole lot about the nature of harmonic relationships (read the Carlos articles above, written by an amazing electronic musician who did Bach, and then did "what happens if I divide the octave by 68 steps? why 12?"

I don't really have a point, but wanted to share this opinion that you cannot really avoid the pure physics of vibrations moving through time as they are perceived, ie. sound. An Octave is an Octave regardless of cultural training etc.. You can break the octave up into how ever many steps your culture wants, but fundamentally the relationship stays the same and humans perceive this. Knowing the various ways to divide the octave and the various harmonic relationships does have purpose as the relationships are there. They are physically real and our brains do perceive them, whether we consciously choose to concoct them or not.
If the relationships are not there in a direct harmonic sense (like the helicopters) then we can also just explore that but in general you have to be told that is the case, it's like reading numbers from PI, no pattern but interesting to glance at for a bit. If I showed you a random sequence from PI and did not tell you what they were, you would not recognize it as number sequence from PI. I don't think anyone watches helicopters and goes "hmm that's music, and I mean music!!" but if we are told it's music well then... ok. Whatever.
Pattern does have to come into it at some point, even the choice to "not have pattern, LOL.." Sound waves are pattern and that is because of the physics involved. The physics of sound, and the physics of how our consciousness arises and perceives dictate this to a very very large extent. We can learn the physics, using some sort of system, and as everyone has been debating, this can be or not be of worth. Generally knowledge is power. For instance, why do many musicians use oscilloscopes? Information can be very helpful. Our brains are great at filtering out too much information so we can stay sane. Music is a great reminder of this.
So, lastly, this is a great gift. That we can consciously derive meaning through our perception of vibrations arriving at us through time. Wow.
Old 6th April 2010
  #246
Gear Nut
 

Short cut to wendy article, she definitely has opinions on what is discussed here.
So to save some time for you:

http://www.wendycarlos.com/other/PDF...Interview*.pdf
Old 6th April 2010
  #247
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Wolfenstadt's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by in a blue field View Post
nah yer right my bad, when i mentioned the superstar bit i was mixing them up with the other writing group from that niche of the world that locks out with us, Espionage... dunno how long Espen has been a "superstar" or if he's even considered one, or if it's been a long time, but some of those videos of his, man, sure do look like they were made at the same time as like Ace Of Base. tho i did see him once on a norwegian awards show performing, it was just him playing the ukelele and a chick with a kick drum. i thought it was pretty cool, it was refreshing, i figure you had to be something of a "superstar" in your own country to be allowed to get up there and break the guitar-bass-drums mold
Oh yeah that makes sense, Espen Lind was a star of sorts here some years ago. I think it's been a while since he released anything though? He actually was a bit of fresh air when he first got known - I think he's a pretty solid songwriter and although his music isn't really my cup of tea, he is good at what he does.

How was it working with these guys btw? Any production secrets worth mentioning?
Old 6th April 2010
  #248
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steelyfan's Avatar
 

Strange where this thread has turned up.

Sounds more like a religion debate, and we all know that no matter what part of the world your're from...... YOUR god is the REAL god.heh

We need a chilldown session for a bit. It would be just terrible to know everything (boring, no learning curve) and man.... if everyone believed in the same thing that would be such a drag. We wouldn't even need to talk.......just exist!

YIKES!
Old 6th April 2010
  #249
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Beermaster's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
Erm, the ones who attacked are still the theory proponents who for some reason can't accept that some of us reject their precious theory for our own musical purposes.
I don't think that anyone has attacked you but I do see why some people could be offended by your bizarre argument about race issues and their connection with the subject in hand.

I do believe from your responses that you are very insecure about your own abilities musically and that you'd rather blame anything and everything but the true cause of your inadequacy.... not learning more about music.


Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
I mean, how would you feel if an indian classical musician came to you and said that you really are limited in what you do (and he would be right, you are limited, i mean, you don't even play pure intervals but use a tempered scale...) and that you need to see the light through high level studies of classical indian music?

Somewhat offensive?

Or would you just accept that his mastery of ancient theory is superior to yours and that you therefore must study classical indian music?

...yeah, sure - ooh so tolerant, eh? heh
Well as someone who has studied Indian music and worked, played and recorded with some of London's finest Asian musicians it wouldn't be such a surprise ( but hey you already assumed that we're stuck in baroque erea counterpoint anyway ! ) and in no way would It offend me. But you know, here in lies your problem grumph... you still suppose that being faced with a musician with greater abilities than ourselves that we would be offended - beacuse clearly you feel threatened. It's anything but that it's the opposite and this is what we're talking about.. Learning ! !
Old 6th April 2010
  #250
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crufty's Avatar
@grumph, if someone told me I could benefit from study in another area I would always weigh the results vs time commitment.

@royjeebiv accessibility is probably it, but maybe its the reverse: the electronic genre tends to be secretive.

listen to Van Halen. Hey man, far out! what's next?
Quick Licks: Van Halen "Hot for Teacher" - Guitar World


Listen to...anybody in the electronic music genre. Hey man, far out! What's next?
*crickets*


the great irony is because EM is midi, everything *could* be laid out quite easily.
Old 6th April 2010
  #251
Old 7th April 2010
  #252
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by golden beers View Post

Sounded more like 3 octaves to me. His fingers played a little higher, but his voice never made it consistently above the c above middle c.

John
Old 7th April 2010
  #253
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Derp's Avatar
Okay, I've tried my damnedest to stay out of this clusterf*ck of a thread.

Not taking sides.

Not engaging anybody.

Just gonna throw this out there:

I went through a phase about a year ago of learning all I could in regards to music theory. Even got into a conversation with Mr. Robinett about how when I was a kid, I learned to idolize the Deftones when they had first came out. Their guitarist had stated in an interview that he thought that there should be no classes taught on music because you can learn just as well on your own. Then, a few years later, one of his songs was tabbed by Andy Aledort for Guitar World when they were still doing a little blurb before the guitar tabs, and Mr. Aledort went into how the song being presented ("My Own Summer") relied on a D harmonic minor scale, and I realized that even though he had no formal training in music theory, Stephen Carpenter was still unconsciously utilizing theory concepts. Thus I drew the line that I could work faster if I learned theory.

Well, the past year of my music has been some of the dullest most uninspired crap I've ever had the displeasure of putting my name on. Everything started to sound too calculated. I was essentially writing pop music at this point. I spent some time recently trying to 'unlearn' everything I read about, and my songwriting has only recently gotten back on par to what I was doing before I took the time to study theory. My songwriting is much more simplistic again, but it's back to being something that I'm proud to call my own.

So in my most humble opinion, learning theory works great for some people in some genres, but for some of us, it can be a hell of a hindrance.

That's my two cents, and now I'm leaving this thread before somebody says something about Hitler.

Old 7th April 2010
  #254
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henryrobinett's Avatar
Yup. Did I mention somewhere that it's a process? I have this with some of my students right now. It's a PROCESS that takes time. It's uncomfortable for about a couple of years, until you get the stuff internalized, to the point where you no longer have to THINK ABOUT IT. Until then it's like learning to walk all over again. You're uncoordinated and feel stupid and uninspired and nothing goes right -- UNTIL -- BANG! You got it.
Old 7th April 2010
  #255
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grumphh's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beermaster View Post
I don't think that anyone has attacked you but I do see why some people could be offended by your bizarre argument about race issues and their connection with the subject in hand.
What you call a "race issue" was a simple analogy, comparing the stance of the educated white musicians towards the uneducated black musicians many years ago to the stance of todays educated musicians of all colours towards the huge number of uneducated amateurs that make music.



Quote:

I do believe from your responses that you are very insecure about your own abilities musically and that you'd rather blame anything and everything but the true cause of your inadequacy.... not learning more about music.
So you call me insecure and inadequate? heh
Nice try, but it doesn't work that way.
I am happy about what i do musically and feel no need to compete with anyone with regards to theoretic knowlegde.

However - apparently you feel the need to belittle me - and i wonder where that comes from?

Quote:
you still suppose that being faced with a musician with greater abilities than ourselves that we would be offended - beacuse clearly you feel threatened. It's anything but that it's the opposite and this is what we're talking about.. Learning ! !
No i was merely making a point that if you are happy about what you do, you don't need to learn more - otherwise every musician worth his salt obviously would have to spend 5 years (not just a couple of weeks) of his time in India getting their theory and practice down.


....


It is still you people that do know theory that belittle us without that knowledge, not the other way around.

...and i really don't understand your need for it?

We do what we do, and you do what you do - why on earth do you feel a need to tell us that we are limited by our lack of knowledge.

Just because musical education works in your favour it doesn't mean that it works in everybodys favour.

Look, this thread started as a complaint about the lack of harmonic diverseness in electronic music - and then quite a few people chimed in and explained that harmony simply is not what lots of electronic music is about so that there is no need to learn about it.
And instead of just accepting that answer (and thereby recognizing that different genres require different approaches) you educated guys go in and start telling us that we are limited and should get education and so forth.

That is a condescending attitude, mainly showing a total lack of understanding for other peoples creative efforts and also showing that you cannot accept any other form of musical expression than the one you are used to.

Again, if you want to spend your time playing complex soli over extremely difficult harmonic structures that is fine with me, and i recognize the need for theoretic knowlege in that field.

So if i can be openminded about your need for theoretic knowledge why can't you be openminded about the fact that for some other styles of music that knowledge is not needed?

Who is the truly intolerant here?

The one who says: Do what you want to do, or the guy saying: You should do what i do?
Old 7th April 2010
  #256
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBadJohn View Post
Sounded more like 3 octaves to me. His fingers played a little higher, but his voice never made it consistently above the c above middle c.

John

you think?
Old 7th April 2010
  #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crufty View Post
@grumph, if someone told me I could benefit from study in another area I would always weigh the results vs time commitment.
Right you are, and if i considered playing any style of music where extensive theoretic knowledge is required i would find out where to acquire the knowledge needed for that.

But if all i want to do is to string a bunch of samples and weird synth noises together for a dance track that is meant to get people moving on the dancefloor i have no need to learn the circle of fifths.

Or you could even omit the synths and samples altogether...

...but in the eyes of our formally trained friends the video below is probably not music anyway... heh
(Just like blues music wasn't music in the eyes of the american establishment not even 100 years ago ;-) )

Old 7th April 2010
  #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golden beers View Post
Ha ha ! bloody classic.

He actually sung less than three octaves... he couldn't pitch the first or second notes at all and at the end he's only three octaves away from the first sung note.

What a talent !
Old 7th April 2010
  #259
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Wolfenstadt's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beermaster View Post
Ha ha ! bloody classic.

He actually sung less than three octaves... he couldn't pitch the first or second notes at all and at the end he's only three octaves away from the first sung note.

What a talent !
Ah, but who cares about octaves anyways?! It's all just music dude!! heh

Old 7th April 2010
  #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstadt View Post
Ah, but who cares about octaves anyways?! It's all just music dude!! heh


So true
Old 7th April 2010
  #261
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grumphh's Avatar
 

Yeah, obviously he should take some theory lessons to improve his singing heh
Old 7th April 2010
  #262
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Simonator's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
Yeah, obviously he should take some theory lessons to improve his singing heh
I think you might be on for a record number of pages by which you've led a thread astray here!

Bravo sir!

Old 7th April 2010
  #263
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Wolfenstadt's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
Yeah, obviously he should take some theory lessons to improve his singing heh
NO!! That would ruin EVERYTHING! Shane would feel totally trapped in, unable to express himself in his own artistic style! Don't be so elitist, man!!

heh
Old 7th April 2010
  #264
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grumphh's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by simonator View Post
I think you might be on for a record number of pages by which you've led a thread astray here!

Bravo sir!

Actually the contrary - i have kept it on track. heh

The original question still was how harmony relates to electronic music and why there isn't more harmonic knowledge in it, and when the answer was that harmony very often isn't necessary all the theory proponents came crawling out of the woodwork claiming that their way is the only correct way to create music...
Old 7th April 2010
  #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
Actually the contrary - i have kept it on track. heh

The original question still was how harmony relates to electronic music and why there isn't more harmonic knowledge in it, and when the answer was that harmony very often isn't necessary all the theory proponents came crawling out of the woodwork claiming that their way is the only correct way to create music...

Mate, I totally with you; let's stoke them up together, I reckon we can easily get this to 15 pages-

Music theory is totally irrelevant to composing music.
Anyone who says differently is a racist **** pedophile.

Yeah!!
heh
Old 7th April 2010
  #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
The original question still was how harmony relates to electronic music and why there isn't more harmonic knowledge in it, and when the answer was that harmony very often isn't necessary all the theory proponents came crawling out of the woodwork claiming that their way is the only correct way to create music...
Actually, the statement that "harmony very often isn't necessary" doesn't really answer the question I originally asked.

It is obvious that if you are creating music that relies almost entirely on percussion, then harmony isn't an issue. What is not obvious is why electronic music has gone in a direction that relies so heavily on percussion--or, more generally, why sound design has become such a major component that it often seems to crowd out everything else.

It is logical that sound design should become important as a result of its becoming possible :-) Again, what is not obvious--at least not to me--is why sound design should crowd out melody and harmony as important elements of music, rather than sharing the stage with them.

That's the question for which I'm trying to get an answer. Please note that the whole theory/non-theory debate is answering a separate question entirely, because sound design has its own theory that one can choose to study--or not.
Old 7th April 2010
  #267
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Quote:
why sound design should crowd out melody and harmony as important elements of music, rather than sharing the stage with them.
In the absolute, it should not.

No more than in orchestral music, harmony is not the only important things.

But why not for some music ?

I think inversely, for a lot of people who find harmony so important, sometime they do not think of the spectrum evolution as a part of the music.

This is really strange for me.

To each is own.
Old 7th April 2010
  #268
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I think that saying that music is 'a language' is somewhat of a cliche. One can make analogies to a language, but I don't think that it is one, unless one claims trivially that the cliche has now become part of the language by constant use.

This whole debate has become quite silly, and I don't see the 'theory people' quite getting what grumphh is saying. It seems that what he's saying is quite mild, actually. First of all, what I've seen confused several times in the interpretations is that he is distinguishing between a formal study of the theory behind specific types of music, and the knowledge that one gains by listening and doing. It would be absurd to claim that one could be a blues master the first time that one picks up the guitar, and he's not doing that. I don't have the will to go back and reread the countless posts in this thread, but it sure seemed to me that one of the themes was that some kind of formal theory (as opposed to experience) would necessarily make one's music better, no matter the style...and then perhaps the milder form of this, which is that the formal theory couldn't hurt, and that therefore since it could help, would necessarily be a good thing. But I don't even see that second form as true - I've certainly seen people whose theory didn't help them, and that made it harder for them to break rules - and certainly the claim has been made here that one needs to know a rule in order to break it, which is just downright false.

The thing is about this debate that there really aren't any 'rules' to this. Depending on the music you're trying to play, formal theory might help, and it might help immensely. Then again, it might help one person much more than another, and obviously, depending on the type of music, hurt someone also.


Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
I've stayed out of this debate because I think it's silly. I haven't read much of anything since I last posted, but I get little snippets from email.

First of all theory is simply the mind behind how something is done. There is a WAY to play the blues. What, do you think some of those old black (not "negro" or "colored" - those are offensive terms) sharecroppers put their hands on mammy's guitar and it just played? There was and is a way to play it. This is the theory of playing blues. I - IV - V chords, blues SCALES, arpeggiated lines, growls, bends, 12 bar structure, looser in the early days.

There is a way, or ways to play gamelan and there are ways not to. There's ways to play or not play country, bluegrass, hip hop. All of these fall into their theoretical boundaries of their particular domains. There's ways to play jazz or classical music. Sometimes the theory dove tails into other domains, sometimes they don't or are less applicable.

Now as far as what I've seen, I haven't seen this snobbism and elitism that you MUST know theory or your music simply sucks. What I've seen is the elitism of those who criticize those who DO know their theory. And I've seen this increasingly for years now. The pot calling the kettle black thing.


The uneducated want comfort in numbers and to tear down the educated. There's absolutely nothing wrong with knowing what you're doing in anything, least of all music.

Music is great, but it's not all the same. Jazz is different and has different requirements. Techno is great and has different requirements. If I'm going to play jazz, which I do for a living, I have to have a highly train set of skill sets grounded in theory and in many cases reading. In techno I'd need to leave 95% of all the behind. Minimalist. But a chord is still a chord, last I checked. Sometimes there ARE chords, if but one. Ambient structures may still have harmonic content.

Listen, I don't want everyone to be the same. I'm not criticizing others for what they do. I absolutely adore what I do and the music I do. I was just doing some mixes of a concert I played and recorded with the jazz great Bobby Hutcherson a few months ago. There are few guitarists anywhere who can do what I can do and I'm proud of that, but mainly it's evidence of hard work, not talent. I wouldn't trade this experience for anything in the world. I'm sure others feel similarly about what they do. Nobody is trying to take anything away from you. You experience music the way you like to. Just don't try to cheapen it or take it away from anyone else, which is exactly what I'm seeing.

For many, like myself, music is a profession. I do what is required for the gig. Mostly for what I do, good sight reading is required. Instant chord analysis and soloing, with no prep, over difficult and often fast moving chord changes. This is not required in all music. But I get called to play anything in any style, -- acoustic guitar, electric guitar, clean, distorted, finger picking, pop, rock, funk, modern trashy, blues. It's fun. I LOVE it.

Nothing better than feeling competent. Someone might not like what I play or come up with, but there's no question I can play it. I don't have that worried, hunted feeling hoping I won't be put in a situation where I might be asked to play xxx.

Music is a simple language, but it IS a language. There's the base language common to MOST western musics, and then there's the other specific language endemic to the style and function of each genre. I never, to my knowledge, mentioned the word theory early when I was in discussion in this thread. I wasn't even THINKING theory. I was thinking MUSIC. The two are not necessarily the same, but yes, theory is part of music. Even if you don't know what the words are you know the concepts. You know because you can tell more correct notes form less correct notes. You can hear and mistake when it happens. There are reasons for that.

I'll leave it at that.

I'm out. Have at it.
Old 7th April 2010
  #269
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Quote:
it sure seemed to me that one of the themes was that some kind of formal theory (as opposed to experience) would necessarily make one's music better, no matter the style...and then perhaps the milder form of this, which is that the formal theory couldn't hurt, and that therefore since it could help, would necessarily be a good thing. But I don't even see that second form as true - I've certainly seen people whose theory didn't help them, and that made it harder for them to break rules - and certainly the claim has been made here that one needs to know a rule in order to break it, which is just downright false.
+10000

This is what I was trying to say about the potential disadvantage of theory.
Old 7th April 2010
  #270
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I generally find the 'psychology card' to be more offensive than anything that grumphh has said. You are misinterpreting much of what he's said, and attacking him, and then you have the audacity to suggest that he must be saying what he is because of feelings of inadequacy. And then you deny that you are posting in an elitist manner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beermaster View Post
I don't think that anyone has attacked you but I do see why some people could be offended by your bizarre argument about race issues and their connection with the subject in hand.

I do believe from your responses that you are very insecure about your own abilities musically and that you'd rather blame anything and everything but the true cause of your inadequacy.... not learning more about music.




Well as someone who has studied Indian music and worked, played and recorded with some of London's finest Asian musicians it wouldn't be such a surprise ( but hey you already assumed that we're stuck in baroque erea counterpoint anyway ! ) and in no way would It offend me. But you know, here in lies your problem grumph... you still suppose that being faced with a musician with greater abilities than ourselves that we would be offended - beacuse clearly you feel threatened. It's anything but that it's the opposite and this is what we're talking about.. Learning ! !
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