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Music vs. sound? Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 2nd April 2010
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
If he decides to go a different route in music he's already crippled.
What if he decides to go into techno?
Or ambient?
Or (god forbid!) noise?
Or learning classical indian sitar?

Your whole stance is that (western) theory is necessary to make good music (hence the brain and expert things you say you didn't say).

But it is quite possible to do many styles of music that do not require much theoretical knowledge beyond knowing how to tune your instrument (if you use an instrument in the first place...).

Wether this music gives you personally any listening pleasure is another subject, but don't deny that there are quite a few people out there capable of creating good music in many genres who have no more than rudimentary knowledge of any theory whatsoever.
Old 2nd April 2010
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
What if he decides to go into techno?
Or ambient?
Or (god forbid!) noise?
Or learning classical indian sitar?

Your whole stance is that (western) theory is necessary to make good music (hence the brain and expert things you say you didn't say).

But it is quite possible to do many styles of music that do not require much theoretical knowledge beyond knowing how to tune your instrument (if you use an instrument in the first place...).

Wether this music gives you personally any listening pleasure is another subject, but don't deny that there are quite a few people out there capable of creating good music in many genres who have no more than rudimentary knowledge of any theory whatsoever.
Absolutely. Listen, if you're trained, you can do techno, ambient, noise or whatever. If you're not you're limited to whatever you can ekk out on your keyboard or whatever.

Nothing in what I said, or intended to say, was directed at or against any STYLE of music. I'm talking about being trained so you can do whatever it is YOU decide to do. Music may go in a different direction. You may have an opportunity to play in some fantastic band, but you may feel intimidated and think you may not be up to speed. If you're trained you can do anything, with just a little bit of work.

I honestly don't know why you feel the need to attack me on this. I think you think I'm saying something I'm not because I must be a jazz snob, because you've known other jazzers who were snobs.

I say what I mean. Don't try to put words in my mouth to accommodate some preconception you have.

And I NEVER said western study is necessary to make good music. I said it's important for making a great musician. You can be a great player, and great writer but, in my estimation, a great musician is something else.
Old 2nd April 2010
  #93
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And I still don't know what you're talking about regarding "my stance" on experts and the brain.
Old 2nd April 2010
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sleestack View Post
My favorite melodies have been written by a bedroom musician with a synthesizer fetish. Richard D. James
this
Old 2nd April 2010
  #95
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No, I don't think all minds are equal. I don't think all have musical ability, but I think everyone CAN. It's just a language and anyone, providing they aren't handicapped in someway, can learn language. But I think some are born with knowledge of the language and others have to work harder to acquire it.
Old 2nd April 2010
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gremlin moon View Post
This is a big non-abstract issue for me because I'm trying to decide should I get my young kids (4 & 6) formal music lessons or not. Right now my strategy is to just play a lot of good music and go the osmosis route but I know it is easier (for the physical brain) to learn a language when you are younger and if they do end up wanting to pursue a carrer in music I don't want them at a disadvantage. OTH I don't want them stuck playing Greensleves and get turned off to music. Realization: I need to find a School of Rock type teacher! Of course wasnt "CC Deville" from Poison trained by Itzhak Perlman?
get a used upright piano off craigslist (a friend of mine got one for free that was in good shape but i've seen them for $100-$200) or something and put it in a place they will see it all the time and make sure they know they can get up and press the keys whenever they want. they'll find it themselves and develop their own interest. it helps if they see someone else playing it a few times week so they know what the thing is for.

every kid is different. some of them get right to it at an early age and some take a little longer to get into it. if they don't like the music playing then stick them in a bilingual preschool or something

i wish my parents would have thrown me into some music lessons when i was that young.
Old 2nd April 2010
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ignatius View Post
i wish my parents would have thrown me into some music lessons when i was that young.
Me too!
Old 2nd April 2010
  #98
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Lessons it is. . .

[IMG]http://api.ning.com/files/7M9WhHQz*FOQ0WNxwR4lQtrKXa1dltcixE37swqjabqMYoSymyiMbcNkcobYmp9isNU00xTMpDdcAd78MFe1KAePf0sAlTR4/larsschoolofrockblackboard.jpg[/IMG]


And perhaps one day they will knock this man off his product endorsement throne:

Old 2nd April 2010
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
Absolutely. Listen, if you're trained, you can do techno, ambient, noise or whatever.

...
I honestly don't know why you feel the need to attack me on this.
The "need to attack" is probably because i get offended by your elitist (and closeminded) attitude.

...as shown in the statement above where you claim that "trained" people can do "whatever style of music they choose to".

That statement is plain wrong.
Or just meaningless - depends on which way you look at it.

Everybody can "do any style" of music - the interesting question is how good they are at it. (As in, if i wanted to do Mozart, i would just get a midi file with some of his works and go from there... heh)

And i have often found that artists that go outside their genre usually don't make interesting music when outside their comfort zone.
Just ask a classically trained pianist who does classical for a living to sit in on one of your jams and see how well she/he does...

And very often classical training or jazz training (we are still speaking of harmonic theory here) is simply not applicable to other forms of music and the artists are essentially newcomers to any other genres they might want to experiment with.
(Although they might fancy themselves wonderful at anything they try - after all, big egos are not uncommon amongst musicians)

And a practical example:
What use is your harmonic training (and for that matter knowledge of your instrument) when trying to create a techno groove that stays in the same key for 12 minutes and relies on textural changes for keeping the listeners interest?

I'd wager that a kid who throughout his teens has been into that music both listening and creating it can do techno much better (even without other theoretical knowledge than knowing his software well) than even the most accomplished jazz or classical musician...
Old 2nd April 2010
  #100
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Yeah, but the magic has never disappeared for me. There's a distraction when you learn, like anything else. It might take a minute to get back to all the magic of it all, but it comes. Too much thinking. But after awhile I find you can stop all that thinking, like when you were an innocent and just play with absolutely no thought to right/wrong or rules. That's like it supposed to be. But there ARE rules to everything. It's best no KNOW them, so you know what you're ignoring and why something works/doesn't work and how to get there from here
Old 2nd April 2010
  #101
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AARON COPLAND ON ELECTRONIC MUSIC ...

"Thus far I have tried to suggest the musician's concern wth the sonorous image; the endless variety of possible sound combinations; the changing situation with regard to sound media; and the limited use by composers of different sononorous potentials, either through lack of imagination or through inherited conceptions of desirable sound.

Now let us look a little more closely at the sonorous means at the disposal of the composer in terms of the single instrument. Here again the composer is far from being a free agent; he is hedged about with limitations -- limiations in the manufacture of the performing machine (for that is what an instrument is), and limitations in the technical proficiency of the performer who uses the machine.

Sometimes in moments of impatience such as every creator must have, I have imagined the sweeping away overnight of all our known instruments through the invention of new electronic devices that would end the constraints within which we work by providing us with instruments that would represent no problem of pitch, duration, intensity or speed.

As it is, we must always keep in mind that every string, every wood wind and brass can plan only so high and so low, only so fast and so so slow, only so loud and so soft; not forgetting the famous matter of "breath control" for the wind players that is defied at one's peril.

No wonder Beethoven is reported to have said, when he hears that his violinist friend Schuppanzigh was complaining about the unplayablity of his part: 'That he should think of his miserable fiddle, when the spirit is speaking in me!'"

From "Music and Imagination" by Aaron Copland, 1952




Here's another passage related to electronic music ...

"The sonorous image-ideal of the future -- even the immediate future -- seems highly conjectural. In a supersonic age the material of sound itself is likely to become less ethereal and ephermeral, more solidly tangible.

"Carlos Chavez once invisioned a collaboration of musicians and engineers that would produce, as he put it, "a material appropriate and practical for huge electronic musical performances." He goes on to imagine a perfect gradation of coloring through an incredible variety of timbres; and increased perspective of sound through more subtle intensities. The possibilities are endless; the probabilities are that something radical is in the making.

"The sound-wave instruments of Theremin and Martenot, the electronic organ, the ability to write music directly on film, the experimentations with noise as a musical ingredient in sound films and in the scores of the French composers of the new musique concréte -- all these and other similar manifestations see to point to wide horizons of new sound images. But just as in the past, it is perhaps comforting to remember, we, the composers, are the ones who must give meaning to whatever sonoroous mages the engineers can invent."


Aaron Copland on Electronic Music - Harmony Central Musician Community Forums
Old 2nd April 2010
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
But there ARE rules to everything. It's best KNOW them, so you know what you're ignoring and why something works/doesn't work and how to get there from here
Yes! Formal rules provide the road by which one jumps off the bridge.

Then the unknown can be explored and the rules used to finesse the abstract into consumable form for the masses.
Old 2nd April 2010
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crufty View Post
Yes! Formal rules provide the road by which one jumps off the bridge.

Then the unknown can be explored and the rules used to finesse the abstract into consumable form for the masses.
Rubbish heh

There are no rules in music.

So there is nothing to break. No jumping off bridges either.

But yeah, lots of unknown still out there.
Old 2nd April 2010
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
Rubbish heh

There are no rules in music.

So there is nothing to break. No jumping off bridges either.

But yeah, lots of unknown still out there.
Hm. There most certainly are rules. That's why it's so unsettling to end a song on a dominant chord. Joe Public has no idea what that is but he sure wants you to go to the tonic! Put an Eb in a C Major 7th chord or and F in the same and dude who doesn't know anything about music will perceive those as grossly wrong notes.

Now nobody is telling you you can't do these things. These aren't rules that will put you in jail. And if you actually know what you're doing it might be hip. If you don't know what you're doing it could just be stupid.

It's like having dinner with the queen. You could be a radical and pick your nose while grabbing the blood pudding, but if you have no idea that your actions are offensive and why you're immediately being escorted out, it's just stupidity.

Music is a fantastic thing. The rules seem to work across cultures. Those tones communicate in ways that seem universal. 12 tones with scales that have a wonderful balance within themselves. Each tone relates to every other in understandable ways. To pretend that they don't is silly.
Old 2nd April 2010
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
Hm. There most certainly are rules. That's why it's so unsettling to end a song on a dominant chord. Joe Public has no idea what that is but he sure wants you to go to the tonic! Put an Eb in a C Major 7th chord or and F in the same and dude who doesn't know anything about music will perceive those as grossly wrong notes.

Now nobody is telling you you can't do these things. These aren't rules that will put you in jail. And if you actually know what you're doing it might be hip. If you don't know what you're doing it could just be stupid.

It's like having dinner with the queen. You could be a radical and pick your nose while grabbing the blood pudding, but if you have no idea that your actions are offensive and why you're immediately being escorted out, it's just stupidity.

Music is a fantastic thing. The rules seem to work across cultures. Those tones communicate in ways that seem universal. 12 tones with scales that have a wonderful balance within themselves. Each tone relates to every other in understandable ways. To pretend that they don't is silly.
Hehehe, try translating those (erhemm) "universal" twelve tones to two separate gamelan orchestras that do not even play in the same pitch - and actually not necessarily have the same intervals between notes...

How about didgeridoos?
Not music?

As for your wonderful elaboration on tonal resolutions, i ask (again) how that applies to a techno piece that stays in one key and does not utilize tonal changes as its focal point?
Old 2nd April 2010
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ark View Post
Not only did J. S. Bach write some of the greatest music ever, but his music, as interpreted by Wendy (originally Walter) Carlos, sparked much of the subsequent interest in synthesizers as musical instruments. As a result, I am particularly fascinated by how much of today's electronic music has become virtually the opposite of Bach's ideal.

Every time I listen to Bach's music, I realize again that he cared more than anything else about what notes his instruments were playing. He rarely wrote chords as such; instead, what one might hear as a chord usually came about as a fleeting combination of several otherwise independent voices. On several occasions he took music that he had written for one instrument and reused it for another. Sometimes he did not even indicate what instrument or instruments he intended.

Most of the electronic music I hear today approaches its art from the opposite direction: Sound design comes first, then rhythm, and then the actual choice of notes. Rhythm and texture matter much more than melody or harmony.

At this point, some people might rant about how much better things were in the old days. Not me--I think that such things are a matter of taste, and you can't argue about taste. Well, you can, but such arguments are usually impossible to settle so there's not much point.

However, there is a question that I think is important, and that is why. What is it about the use of electronic instruments that has made the ideas of melody and harmony so much less important than they once were? Is it just that electronic instruments are so much more sonically flexible than acoustic ones that it impels people to use them? Is it that it is easier to mash fragments together if they are mostly rhythmic rather than melodic? Is there some other reason that I am missing?

I'd love to hear your thoughts.
I think that there are basicaly several answers to your assesment, however i would like to say that 2 of them are the most likely:

1) in the time of Bach you didnt have much choice over the sound, you had choice over the instrument but not on sound (the exception would be a church organ and so), and more so, we could make the assumption that almost all of the instruments had a good sound. Nowadays you can have a synthesized sound of something never heard before, so therefore you have to focus on how it sounds.

2) The sound of the instruments wasnt translated into a digital medium onto which a lot is lost, the music was played live, and if it sounded bad you only had 2 choices, change the instrument or go to a different location, thats it.

In fact there are a lot of now considered "funny" practices that musicians back in the day used to do to make the audience happier. For example one time i asked a music teacher why did Beethoven in his 9nth symphony and other works repeated a big section from the beginning, for example after 15min of music his indications were "back to the beginning" and play everything all over again.

His answer made a lot of sense, he said "back in the day, ppl didnt had a CD player were you could hear the same song one more time, if you missed it, you missed it and you would have to wait for the next performance to get a grasp on it", so it was Beethoven's (and other composers) pollite way to say "ohhh you didnt get it?, here it goes again"
Old 2nd April 2010
  #107
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It's all music. My god man. I love gamelan. Lou Harrison adopted a lot of gamelan. Ketcak is one of the great pieces of music period. There are different kinds of rules in music. Not just one western set. Chinese Opera. African rhythms. Various aboriginal musics - all very potent and brilliant.

What are you trying to say? 12 tones is a brilliant system in western culture. The various Indian scales and ragas have a similar discipline of rules.

I don't know what you THINK I'm trying to say. Techno that drones on one chord or Miles or Coltrane who do same. So? What does that mean? I'm nit saying anything against the simplicity of music, or invalidating it or talking about styles or genres in the least. You got your panties in a bunch here about something else.
Old 2nd April 2010
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
Hehehe, try translating those (erhemm) "universal" twelve tones to two separate gamelan orchestras that do not even play in the same pitch - and actually not necessarily have the same intervals between notes...

How about didgeridoos?
Not music?

As for your wonderful elaboration on tonal resolutions, i ask (again) how that applies to a techno piece that stays in one key and does not utilize tonal changes as its focal point?
If a techno piece stays in one key, I bet there are some notes I could play against it that would make most people wince. The whole concept of key implies at least some formal training. Learning and knowing about traditional music and music theory is being deemphasized here sometimes in a way that I don't think is justified. The western twelve tone system and the music developed within it ( I am including jazz) constitute a huge part of musical history. It's not everything, but it's not nothing either.

Best,
John
Old 2nd April 2010
  #109
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SYM-BI-O-SIS


Birds in a tree, creating many sounds used in communication...but taken in from a far become the "music of the skys". This music of the sky from a far, intrigues the listener to "get in alil closer" ... once under the tree... is surrounded by a plethora of sound.

without You, i simply do not make any sense
without Me, you simply do not make any sense

Labels and technique are for a "self-created safe environment" much like when the first cave dweller expressed Fire as "bad to touch"...they labelled it as such and hence forth our need to create safe environments.

a note...

How did i sound? were the listeners into it? ~ ehhh, was ok ..but wow, did you ever soar through that " Look-At Me-Atonic scale though. Bravo.
Old 2nd April 2010
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBadJohn View Post
If a techno piece stays in one key, I bet there are some notes I could play against it that would make most people wince. The whole concept of key implies at least some formal training. Learning and knowing about traditional music and music theory is being deemphasized here sometimes in a way that I don't think is justified. The western twelve tone system and the music developed within it ( I am including jazz) constitute a huge part of musical history. It's not everything, but it's not nothing either.

Best,
John
Ermmm the monotony and volume of most techno is enough to make many people wince heh

And no, finding a note (or when getting excessive several notes) on a PC keyboard (ever tried a program called Buzz?) and then repeating them ad nauseam with incremental timbral changes does not really require a foundation in western musical theory.
I mean, in the end it could also be samples without discernible tonality - metallic clangs and the like...

And yes, obviously the twelve tone system is what we are brought up on so that is what we "know" (and it is fairly versatile and useful for a lot of things) - but the point is that i believe that you* can make great music even without knowledge of the theory behind it and that lots of music does exist that does not need that theory...

Otoh, you can also have great knowledge of theory and master an instrument and make it sound really boring - many shred guitar players fall squarely into that category.
(Note, i didn't mention young jazzers who think they have something to prove by playing even faster and more "out" than their predecessors heh)



*if you have talent, of course.
Old 2nd April 2010
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
The "need to attack" is probably because i get offended by your elitist (and closeminded) attitude.

...as shown in the statement above where you claim that "trained" people can do "whatever style of music they choose to".

That statement is plain wrong.
Or just meaningless - depends on which way you look at it.

Everybody can "do any style" of music - the interesting question is how good they are at it. (As in, if i wanted to do Mozart, i would just get a midi file with some of his works and go from there... heh)

And i have often found that artists that go outside their genre usually don't make interesting music when outside their comfort zone.
Just ask a classically trained pianist who does classical for a living to sit in on one of your jams and see how well she/he does...

And very often classical training or jazz training (we are still speaking of harmonic theory here) is simply not applicable to other forms of music and the artists are essentially newcomers to any other genres they might want to experiment with.
(Although they might fancy themselves wonderful at anything they try - after all, big egos are not uncommon amongst musicians)

And a practical example:
What use is your harmonic training (and for that matter knowledge of your instrument) when trying to create a techno groove that stays in the same key for 12 minutes and relies on textural changes for keeping the listeners interest?

I'd wager that a kid who throughout his teens has been into that music both listening and creating it can do techno much better (even without other theoretical knowledge than knowing his software well) than even the most accomplished jazz or classical musician...
Ha! I never saw this post. I just think you're barking up the wrong tree regarding elitism, but oh well.

I've played in punk bands. I've played in funk bands. I've played in modal jazz bands that only played one chord. I've played ambient new age music. I've played pop music and rock music and classical music and techno music, and house music and hip hop, and country and bluegrass, bebop, avant-garde. I've toured Europe, and Japan. I've had a blast playing music because I can. Anybody can. There's nothing elitist about it.

Anyone is only as good as they are. Mingus told me, "You can only do what you can do." Training gives you the knowledge of music. Style is different. You study the style of the genre, like anyone else. If you're trained it can generally go faster. Most classical musicians aren't trained in a way that opens the door to improvisation or playing with a jazz group or funk band or the like. They're trained to read and interpret what's in front of them. Conversely Ive seen a lot of jazz guys just die trying to play a rock or funk rhythm. But they'd get it a hell of a lot faster than a typical rock/techno dude trying to learn how to play Cherokee or Giant Steps.

I think you're arguing with someone else you argued with over this subject a long time ago. I don't think you're arguing with me. I'm not your jazz snob.
Old 3rd April 2010
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
Ermmm the monotony and volume of most techno is enough to make many people wince heh

And no, finding a note (or when getting excessive several notes) on a PC keyboard (ever tried a program called Buzz?) and then repeating them ad nauseam with incremental timbral changes does not really require a foundation in western musical theory.
I mean, in the end it could also be samples without discernible tonality - metallic clangs and the like...

And yes, obviously the twelve tone system is what we are brought up on so that is what we "know" (and it is fairly versatile and useful for a lot of things) - but the point is that i believe that you* can make great music even without knowledge of the theory behind it and that lots of music does exist that does not need that theory...

Otoh, you can also have great knowledge of theory and master an instrument and make it sound really boring - many shred guitar players fall squarely into that category.
(Note, i didn't mention young jazzers who think they have something to prove by playing even faster and more "out" than their predecessors heh)



*if you have talent, of course.
Instrumental virtuosity can be a beautiful thing, I think. Of course It's no guarantee of creativity. But something good can come out of submitting yourself to any rigorous discipline. Freedom means more in a context of discipline. In the hands of a great jazz musician for example, virtuosity, to me is very beautiful. I also admire say Frank Zappa, who used his great technical skill to play the guitar expressively. Also. if you really want to make your own sounds (not from a precooked program or synth presets) there's also a whole lot of stuff to learn and study. I'd always rather listen to the work of someone who has put in the work at WHATEVER he does to reach his highest potential.

Best,

John
Old 3rd April 2010
  #113
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crufty's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
There are no rules in music.
for there to be no rules there must be rules first. otherwise we just have sound and not music.

I can setup a random lfo, attach to pitch and cutoff, lean on a key and sweep lfo speeds up and down. Do I have music?


Code:
Should these words
   be apart,
gone is my
   poetic fart.
just because it rhymes doesn't make it poetry.
Old 3rd April 2010
  #114
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I was dating a girl that knew more about music theory than me and it kind of intimidated me. She was really condescending about it, too. I was upset by it, but then I realized, she is a dork. She likes dorky ****ty music. No matter how much she knows its going to come out dorky. Brian Eno didnt know **** about theory but he still wrote An Ending (Ascent). GOOD TASTE is as important as theory and musical dexterity. Yes, it is a subjective element of music, but who cares. Celine Dion is technically a good singer but I hate her voice anyway
Old 3rd April 2010
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sleestack View Post
I was dating a girl that knew more about music theory than me and it kind of intimidated me. She was really condescending about it, too. I was upset by it, but then I realized, she is a dork. She likes dorky ****ty music. No matter how much she knows its going to come out dorky. Brian Eno didnt know **** about theory but he still wrote An Ending (Ascent). GOOD TASTE is as important as theory and musical dexterity. Yes, it is a subjective element of music, but who cares. Celine Dion is technically a good singer but I hate her voice anyway

I'm not sure I see a connection between being dorky and knowing theory, but then again I didn't know your friend. I am having a really hard time understanding the anti-theory, anti-intellectual vibe that I am seeing sometimes on this thread. Not knowing about theory might not hold back a really talented individual from finding his own way, and making great music, but I don't think it's anything to be proud of either.

Best,
John
Old 3rd April 2010
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synthoid View Post
As much as I love jazz, it seems to me that many jazz recordings neglect the "sound" and even the arrangement dimensions of music in favor of a near-exclusive emphasis on harmony and melody / improvised line. Nothing wrong with that, all music makes choices of where to place emphasis. But some really great composition has been done that emphasizes sound over the other elements. John Cage comes to mind.

(Some great Jazz recordings have placed a big emphasis on sound and arrangement too; Sketches of Spain is a good example.)

Electronic music almost has no choice but to place a heavy emphasis on sound. After all, the thing that distinguishes it is that it uses electronic sounds. But it's not easy to put together electronic sounds that are really good arrangement elements, and so if you set about to do it seriously, there's necessarily a lot of work on the sounds. IMO.

-synthoid
Yes. I agree. Miles' "In a Silent Way" is also kind of interesting as a kind of really early ambient-type music. As you said, designing your sounds is a huge commitment, and fitting them into an arrangement or a piece of music is not so easy. BTW, synthoid are you still a Kyma user? I think I remember reading something you wrote on GS before I bought mine.

Best,
John
Old 3rd April 2010
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
I'd wager that a kid who throughout his teens has been into that music both listening and creating it can do techno much better (even without other theoretical knowledge than knowing his software well) than even the most accomplished jazz or classical musician...
Interesting wager, but unfortunately it depends on the definition of "better."

For many people, "better" will mean "more familiar," and if you use that definition, then of course someone who has spent a lot of time in a particular community will produce music that is "better" from the viewpoint of members of that community. The trouble is that the definition implicitly argues against change or growth in musical styles. Change, after all, always implies unfamiliarity, at least for a while.

This fact leads to a seeming paradox: What is "best" from the viewpoint of a community's taste may not be "best" for the community's success or even, ultimately, its survival. A community that is too eager to reject the unfamiliar may find itself unable to attract new members as the people around it move on to other things.

So although you are probably right to suggest that a kid who has been immersed in a particular style of music can do a fine job of producing more music in exactly that style, I wonder if a skilled, talented outsider might nevertheless be able to product music that is more important to the community in the long run.
Old 3rd April 2010
  #118
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I want to know theory better. Trust me, I'm not anti-intellectual, but knowing theory inside out while also being a virtuoso instrument player wont give you the ability to make great music if you are a dork with ****ty taste.
Old 3rd April 2010
  #119
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
Most jazz musicians don't have the capital to spend on great gobs of gear. Plus the environment is pretty damned conservative when it comes to accepting the new, even though they NOW admire all the innovators. I remember years ago playing Donna Lee, Oleo and the like with moderate distortion, delay, chorus and you'd have thought I set an old lady's hair on fire. It's an uphill battle. It's a big risk offending the small audience you have with the prospect of not picking up anything much new.

Gigs are small, budgets are beyond tight. Audiences are tiny. It's an ART form done for the love of the art. Certainly not for making money.
Wow man. Good analysis of the jazz scene. Most people don't realize just how conservative jazz can be. Bands like Weather Report and Electric Miles were kind of guilty pleasures when I was in school in NY in the 80's. That's funny about the old lady's hair!

Best,
John
Old 3rd April 2010
  #120
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sleestack View Post
Trust me, I'm not anti-intellectual, but knowing theory inside out while also being a virtuoso instrument player wont give you the ability to make great music if you are a dork with ****ty taste.
Agreed!!!

John
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