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Music vs. sound? Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 8th April 2010
  #421
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[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
A good example of that is Beers attitude that says that it is more or less impossible to make "music that speaks" without knowing your theory
Well, I certainly don't agree with that, but I'm not taking sides, just responding to certain things folks are throwing out there.
Old 8th April 2010
  #422
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steelyfan View Post
That is the strangest thing I've ever read on a music forum.
My above post goes for you too.

I see that you are not familiar with communication studies either...
Old 8th April 2010
  #423
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monomer View Post
To truely understand philosophy you would need to understand the brain.
That's simply false. One might say that there are plenty of examples of pretty righteous philosophers who existed before we knew much about the brain. But you are so expertly dismissing them.

Quote:
A phylosophy of ethics is a prime example of brain output.
Brains are the only objects on earth that can make and judge phylosophy.
Phylosophy is ALL about our brains, maybe even more so than science.
Phylosophy is not a universal thing, it is a construct based on our brains experiecing the world around us.
You are very, very confused. And that's ok. But I just can't take this seriously.
Old 8th April 2010
  #424
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
Just how daft are you?

Just because we can artificially systemize sounds and order them logically it still does not attach any MEANING to them.

"This note should follow that note" and "this chord should follow that chord" does not have any meaning in itself... It is just a system to order the sounds.
You don't have to use sound as a language.
But most music actually strives to do this.
Old 8th April 2010
  #425
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
My above post goes for you too.

I see that you are not familiar with communication studies either...

Well, you certainly understood what I said. Where's the breakdown?
Old 8th April 2010
  #426
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Quote:
Originally Posted by droolmaster0 View Post
That's simply false. One might say that there are plenty of examples of pretty righteous philosophers who existed before we knew much about the brain. But you are so expertly dismissing them.
There were numerous righeous biologists and chemists before we found out that they were both a subset of physics.
Big picture and all that stuff..
Old 8th April 2010
  #427
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Wikipedia again

For those of you that don't get what meaning is:

The properties of language

Main article: semiotics
[edit] Arbitrary symbols

A key property of language is that its symbols are arbitrary.[5] Any concept or grammatical rule can be mapped onto a symbol. In other words, most languages make use of sound, but the combinations of sounds used do not have any necessary and inherent meaning; they are merely an agreed-upon convention to represent a certain thing by users of that language. For instance, the sound combination nada carries the meaning of "nothing" in the Spanish language and also the meaning "thread" in the Hindi language. There is nothing about the word nada itself that forces Hindi speakers to convey the idea of "thread", or the idea of "nothing" for Spanish speakers. Other sets of sounds (for example, the English words nothing and thread) could equally be used to represent the same concepts, but all Spanish and Hindi speakers have acquired or learned to correlate their own meanings for this particular sound pattern. Indeed, for speakers of Slovene and some other South Slavic languages, the sound combination carries the meaning of "hope", while in Indonesian, it means "tone".
This arbitrariness applies to words even with an onomatopoeticcuckoo, whip-poor-will, and katydid) are derived from sounds made by the respective animal, but these forms did not have to be chosen for these meanings. Non-onomatopoetic words can stand just as easily for the same meaning. For instance, the katydid is called a "bush cricket" in British English, a term that bears no relation to the sound made by the animal. In time, onomatopoetic words can also change in form, losing their mimetic status. Onomatopoetic words may have an inherent relation to their referent, but this meaning is not inherent; thus they do not violate arbitrariness. dimension (i.e. words that to some extent simulate the sound of the token referred to). For example, several animal names (e.g.
[edit] Related symbols

The meanings of signs may be arbitrary, but the process of assigning meaning is not; it is the activity of the entire society; individuals are not allowed to change them arbitrarily, even though they may contribute some new meanings. A continuous thread of socially recognized meaning requires that the allowed meanings of individual signs be related. The relatedness of signs was formally recognized by Charles W. Morris, who divided semiotics into three fields, based on "the three dimensions of semiosis:"[6]
"...syntactics studies the relation between a given sign vehicle and other sign vehicles, semantics studies the relations between sign vehicles and their designata, and pragmatics studies the relation between sign vehicles and their interpreters....
These types of relatedness allow a finite set of signs to be combined into a potentially infinite number of meaningful utterances.
Old 8th April 2010
  #428
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
...

By the way, the discussion is about wether music is a language or not - not wether it is a form of communication.
Actually, it's been about both. And it isn't a form of communication, which I thought that we both agreed on.
Old 8th April 2010
  #429
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
Kiddie voice: They started it, wahhh! heh

...read the first few pages of this thread and see how much contempt (hidden and not so hidden) some of the people with musical education show towards us that do not have that education.
Read from page 3 onwards where whenever anyone ( and there are quite a few well meaning and experienced posters ) comments on education being neglected and more experience being a big help... grumph calls the 'elitist' - card ( and this strange race issue kept coming up too that I think upset quite a few people )

Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
A good example of that is Beers attitude that says that it is more or less impossible to make "music that speaks" without knowing your theory - .
Nice miss quote grumph - the word 'theory' wasn't used but experience and education were.
Old 8th April 2010
  #430
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steelyfan View Post
Well, you certainly understood what I said. Where's the breakdown?
heh the breakdown is in the fact that i see your lack of knowledge on this subject as clearly as you would hear my lack of knowledge if i tried to sit in on a jam session with you.
Old 8th April 2010
  #431
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
And just where in music do you find these attached meanings?
It's in the lyric sheet, man...
Old 8th April 2010
  #432
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
heh the breakdown is in the fact that i see your lack of knowledge on this subject as clearly as you would hear my lack of knowledge if i tried to sit in on a jam session with you.

Funny.
Old 8th April 2010
  #433
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
Wikipedia again

For those of you that don't get what meaning is:

The properties of language

Main article: semiotics
[edit] Arbitrary symbols

A key property of language is that its symbols are arbitrary.[5] Any concept or grammatical rule can be mapped onto a symbol. In other words, most languages make use of sound, but the combinations of sounds used do not have any necessary and inherent meaning; they are merely an agreed-upon convention to represent a certain thing by users of that language. For instance, the sound combination nada carries the meaning of "nothing" in the Spanish language and also the meaning "thread" in the Hindi language. There is nothing about the word nada itself that forces Hindi speakers to convey the idea of "thread", or the idea of "nothing" for Spanish speakers. Other sets of sounds (for example, the English words nothing and thread) could equally be used to represent the same concepts, but all Spanish and Hindi speakers have acquired or learned to correlate their own meanings for this particular sound pattern. Indeed, for speakers of Slovene and some other South Slavic languages, the sound combination carries the meaning of "hope", while in Indonesian, it means "tone".
This arbitrariness applies to words even with an onomatopoeticcuckoo, whip-poor-will, and katydid) are derived from sounds made by the respective animal, but these forms did not have to be chosen for these meanings. Non-onomatopoetic words can stand just as easily for the same meaning. For instance, the katydid is called a "bush cricket" in British English, a term that bears no relation to the sound made by the animal. In time, onomatopoetic words can also change in form, losing their mimetic status. Onomatopoetic words may have an inherent relation to their referent, but this meaning is not inherent; thus they do not violate arbitrariness. dimension (i.e. words that to some extent simulate the sound of the token referred to). For example, several animal names (e.g.
[edit] Related symbols

The meanings of signs may be arbitrary, but the process of assigning meaning is not; it is the activity of the entire society; individuals are not allowed to change them arbitrarily, even though they may contribute some new meanings. A continuous thread of socially recognized meaning requires that the allowed meanings of individual signs be related. The relatedness of signs was formally recognized by Charles W. Morris, who divided semiotics into three fields, based on "the three dimensions of semiosis:"[6]
"...syntactics studies the relation between a given sign vehicle and other sign vehicles, semantics studies the relations between sign vehicles and their designata, and pragmatics studies the relation between sign vehicles and their interpreters....
These types of relatedness allow a finite set of signs to be combined into a potentially infinite number of meaningful utterances.
If you would have read more carefully then you would have noticed that this paragraph is about natural language, the one that geneticly developed in humans.
There are more general definitions, altho i suspect that music is also a form of natural language.
Old 8th April 2010
  #434
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Quote:
Originally Posted by droolmaster0 View Post
Actually, it's been about both. And it isn't a form of communication, which I thought that we both agreed on.
So how come people communicate with music?
Old 8th April 2010
  #435
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beermaster View Post
Read from page 3 onwards where whenever anyone ( and there are quite a few well meaning and experienced posters ) comments on education being neglected and more experience being a big help... grumph calls the 'elitist' - card ( and this strange race issue kept coming up too that I think upset quite a few people )



Nice miss quote grumph - the word 'theory' wasn't used but experience and education were.
So what is musical education then, if not theory - i mean just a few pages ago you people tried to tell me that just by learning the basic form of the blues i learned theory heh

I am all for playing and experiencing music - but that can be done nicely without formal education - or theory lessons...
Old 8th April 2010
  #436
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steelyfan View Post
That is the strangest thing I've ever read on a music forum.
actually what he's saying is quite correct. But logic and facts, and an understanding of the way that language works (I'm talking about the one we speak and what we're talking about), don't seem to matter much here. Some of the stuff I'm hearing is just unbelievably asinine.
Old 8th April 2010
  #437
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monomer View Post
So you're saying that words are the only way to express a language?
Or that if you are presented with a text in a language that you do not know yet you should automaticly be able to understand it?
Hilarious indeed...
I didn't say either of those things, but again - facts and logic don't matter, do they?
Old 8th April 2010
  #438
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
heh the breakdown is in the fact that i see your lack of knowledge on this subject as clearly as you would hear my lack of knowledge if i tried to sit in on a jam session with you.

Wait!........ we're jammin NOW!

Yet. yet... we're are both educated in different facets of life, and speaking two different languages to "communicate" to one another

H O w c o u ld t h i s be ? ? ?


heh
Old 8th April 2010
  #439
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
Wikipedia again
And if you scroll down to the See Also section you will find a link to Musivisual Language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ,amongst other interesting forms of language...
Old 8th April 2010
  #440
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beermaster View Post
You're just so literal aren't you Droolz. Check the work out and listen to it up loud in a darkened room... Amazing stuff !
You know, I quite don't like you. You simply ooze condescension in so many ways - you'll misspell their name as a dig (first there was 'Drools', and now it's 'Droolz'), you deny that you're an elitist, but you spout the same elitist garbage over and over again. You also proudly ignore or simply don't understand any of the counter arguments that are made, which really belies this arrogance you have about your education.
Old 8th April 2010
  #441
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[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by droolmaster0 View Post
an understanding of the way that language works
That's just it right there. Some people have read about how it's supposed to work, and some just understand.
Old 8th April 2010
  #442
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monomer View Post
You don't have to use sound as a language.
But most music actually strives to do this.
Oh, so now music has volition?!
Old 8th April 2010
  #443
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steelyfan View Post
Funny.
Funny but true.

I do actually respect knowledge and would not even dare getting into an actual discussion about applying harmonic theory with you, simply because i know that you know infinitely more about the subject than i do.

But when we are talking languages and communication please respect that the books and papers i have read as part of my studies also represent a lot of knowledge that you simply don't have.

That doesn't make any of us a better person than the other AT ALL - but there can be no doubt that we have different areas of expertise.

geddit?
Old 8th April 2010
  #444
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[QUOTE=steelyfan;5287427]
Quote:


That's just it right there. Some people have read about how it's supposed to work, and some just understand.
That's just it right there. Some people have read about how music is supposed to work, and some just understand.
Old 8th April 2010
  #445
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Quote:
Originally Posted by droolmaster0 View Post
I didn't say either of those things, but again - facts and logic don't matter, do they?
You found it hilarious that the work can communicate events without spoken words or you actually automaticly understanding what it ment.

If not then please explain what you did mean.
Old 8th April 2010
  #446
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Hey, it's 4:30... I'm off work and leaving for the day. I'll catch up later.



cheers,
Steelyfan

thumbsup
Old 8th April 2010
  #447
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monomer View Post
There were numerous righeous biologists and chemists before we found out that they were both a subset of physics.
Big picture and all that stuff..
Your claim is that to understand philosophy one must understand the brain. But that is not true.One can be a pretty good biologist, I suspect, while having nowhere near a degree in physics. Why are you here? Really?
Old 8th April 2010
  #448
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Quote:
Originally Posted by droolmaster0 View Post
Oh, so now music has volition?!
It would all be random if it hadn't.
Old 8th April 2010
  #449
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monomer View Post
So how come people communicate with music?
Read my ****ing posts. I've already addressed this, and you are not paying any attention anyway.
Old 8th April 2010
  #450
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Quote:
Originally Posted by droolmaster0 View Post
Your claim is that to understand philosophy one must understand the brain. But that is not true.One can be a pretty good biologist, I suspect, while having nowhere near a degree in physics. Why are you here? Really?
If you think that you can be a good biologist without knowlege of physics these days they you are decades behind my friend.
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