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Music vs. sound? Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 8th April 2010
  #391
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monomer View Post
And how is philosophy and linguistics not a brain science?
Next thing you will tell us is that biology and chemistry has nothing to do with physics, right?
uh - philosophy is not in fact science. PLEASE (and I'd love to hear this) explain to me how philosophy is science in a sense other than metaphorical. And in addition - philosophy is not a study of the brain. A philosophy of ethics is not a book about the brain. It is not correct to say that since philosophy uses the mind, or talks about people's behavior, or analyzes language, etc, all things which have some relationship to the brain, that it is therefore ABOUT the brain.

But go ahead - it's amusing to read people who are both ignorant AND condescending.
Old 8th April 2010
  #392
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristianRock View Post
I talked about the concept of art being an expression rather than a language (basically feeding off of what Drool was saying), but I guess nobody paid attention.

I didn't know I had "score", btw.
How can you express yourself without a language?
Who will hear you?
Old 8th April 2010
  #393
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monomer View Post
How can you express yourself without a language?
Who will hear you?
Does it matter if anyone hears as long as I'm happy expressing myself?
Old 8th April 2010
  #394
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Here is an interesting research tidbit from a John Hopkins research study on jazz improvisation using MRI's, worthwhile reading to be sure: THIS IS YOUR BRAIN ON JAZZ: RESEARCHERS USE MRI TO STUDY SPONTANEITY, CREATIVITY

I think when we talk about "the elite" an archetypal response is always that the "diamond-in-the-rough" can surpass them. The following scene from MIB illustrates this: YouTube - The Best of The Best

The movie Amadeus I think gets at these issues perhaps in a more profound manner.

This is Gearslutz, where there is an 8000 page thread on Michael Jackson's Dangerous album that has been active for almost a year! Any elitism here is elite-lite. Did that sound elitist?
Old 8th April 2010
  #395
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
I have not thrown any stones but a sentence like this "Without the right education tho... making music that speaks is very difficult." certainly makes you (and others who think like that) an elitist.
You'd probably agree that to become a brain surgeon you'd need to have studied and practiced for twenty years to get to a level where your skill are up to the job?

You'd probably agree that to become a great painter you'd also have to spend much of your life learning your art

So why does it surprise you that to become an accomplished musician or composer and to be able to communicate properly with your music it also takes years and years of study and practice ?
Old 8th April 2010
  #396
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Quote:
Originally Posted by droolmaster0 View Post
uh - philosophy is not in fact a science. PLEASE (and I'd love to hear this) explain to me how philosophy is science in a sense other than metaphorical. And in addition - philosophy is not a study of the brain. A philosophy of ethics is not a book about the brain. It is not correct to say that since philosophy uses the mind, or talks about people's behavior, or analyzes language, etc, all things which have some relationship to the brain, that it is therefore ABOUT the brain.

But go ahead - it's amusing to read people who are both ignorant AND condescending.
To truely understand philosophy you would need to understand the brain.

A phylosophy of ethics is a prime example of brain output.
Brains are the only objects on earth that can make and judge phylosophy.
Phylosophy is ALL about our brains, maybe even more so than science.
Phylosophy is not a universal thing, it is a construct based on our brains experiecing the world around us.
Old 8th April 2010
  #397
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monomer View Post
How can you express yourself without a language?
Who will hear you?
Bloody easy methinks:

I can scream, and people will get that i am angry about something (if i scream in the right way). I could also just turn up one of my amps to its full 100+ W output and hit the strings on my guitar.
Expressive enough for you?

However, as opposed to language no one will ever know why i screamed (or played the guitar entirely too loud unless i resort to telling them the reason for my anger using language.

Now you try telling people that you are frustrated because you instead of getting a tax return have to pay extra because your accountant made a mistake.
But do so with notes.

...i'll be waiting for an mp3 file.
Old 8th April 2010
  #398
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristianRock View Post
Does it matter if anyone hears as long as I'm happy expressing myself?
Why do you think that you have this need to express yourself then? heh
Is it some magical thing?
Is it just random jibberish?
No!
Evolution provided for it to give you the ability to communicate to other higher animals.
Of course, you can practice it at home alone.
But that's not why you have this ability.
Old 8th April 2010
  #399
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[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beermaster View Post
Eno didn't randomly suddenly out of the blue book a studio and start recording with no prior experience... He's worked with countless bands and studio projects.. writing and performing ... He's was as 'educated' as he needed to be.[/QUOTE
But he DID!

Eno's first gig was making noise on a synthisizer he learned to play while making music with his first band Roxy Music. (AFAIK)

He made two records with them, quit, and then started making his own music with Robert Fripp in his own home studio. At this point, he was @ 19-23 (or something) and still didn't know 3 chords on a piano. No music school, plenty of intellectual thoughts but ONLY a visial arts degree, and running on his own ambitions to create his IDEAS, not extend his education chops. He learned to do what he does on his own, and embellished the flaws and short comings of his tallent..... they're concepts, you can't learn concept (you can steal them though).
He's a mind flexer, not a schooled or educated musician, but a free thinker
and a very smart man.

Point is though, he's the opposite of your theory.(and that's OK).
No one who knew what they were doing would have made music that sounded like his first 3 records.heh

And that's the beauty of it all.
Old 8th April 2010
  #400
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
Bloody easy methinks:

I can scream, and people will get that i am angry about something (if i scream in the right way). I could also just turn up one of my amps to its full 100+ W output and hit the strings on my guitar.
Expressive enough for you?

However, as opposed to language no one will ever know why i screamed (or played the guitar entirely too loud unless i resort to telling them the reason for my anger using language.

Now you try telling people that you are frustrated because you instead of getting a tax return have to pay extra because your accountant made a mistake.
But do so with notes.

...i'll be waiting for an mp3 file.
The fact that you did not communicate WHY you were angry doesnt take away the fact that you managed to communicate THAT you were angry.
It even might hint people to look for the cause if you make it sound a little painfull
Old 8th April 2010
  #401
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beermaster View Post
You'd probably agree that to become a brain surgeon you'd need to have studied and practiced for twenty years to get to a level where your skill are up to the job?

You'd probably agree that to become a great painter you'd also have to spend much of your life learning your art

So why does it surprise you that to become an accomplished musician or composer and to be able to communicate properly with your music it also takes years and years of study and practice ?
Of course to the first two paragraphs - but now we are discussing communication (and that is what i have studied and spent a great deal of my life on) and i can say with as much certainty as you could that i am not a jazz guitar player, that you have no idea what communication is about.
Old 8th April 2010
  #402
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monomer View Post
Why do you think that you have this need to express yourself then? heh
Is it some magical thing?
Is it just random jibberish?
No!
Evolution provided for it to give you the ability to communicate to other higher animals.
Of course, you can practice it at home alone.
But that's not why you have this ability.
Does not compute.
So am I not allowed to play music just because I like to play? To relax for example, after a long day at work?
Is there a law that says that unless I play for other people, I can't play at all?
Old 8th April 2010
  #403
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
Of course to the first two paragraphs - but now we are discussing communication (and that is what i have studied and spent a great deal of my life on) and i can say with as much certainty as you could that i am not a jazz guitar player, that you have no idea what communication is about.
So, what is communication about?
Old 8th April 2010
  #404
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monomer View Post
The fact that you did not communicate WHY you were angry doesnt take away the fact that you managed to communicate THAT you were angry.
It even might hint people to look for the cause if you make it sound a little painfull
Just because an action can be used for communicative purposes that action is not a language.

There are many other forms of communication besides languages. Common to them all is though that these forms of communication are not able to express the senders intention with the communication as precisely as languages do.
Old 8th April 2010
  #405
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monomer View Post
So, what is communication about?
Communicating of course. heh

Wikipedia sums it up nicely:
Communication is a process of transferring information from one entity to another. Communication processes are sign-mediated interactions between at least two agents which share a repertoire of signs and semiotic rules. Communication is commonly defined as "the imparting or interchange of thoughts, opinions, or information by speech, writing, or signs". Although there is such a thing as one-way communication, communication can be perceived better as a two-way process in which there is an exchange and progression of thoughts, feelings or ideas[1] (energy) towards a mutually accepted goal or direction (information).


By the way, the discussion is about wether music is a language or not - not wether it is a form of communication.
Old 8th April 2010
  #406
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
Just because an action can be used for communicative purposes that action is not a language.
As soon as you start to attach symbols (of which certain behaviours like showing emotion can be part) to meaning then you have language...
Old 8th April 2010
  #407
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
By the way, the discussion is about wether music is a language or not - not wether it is a form of communication.
Al language is communication...
Old 8th April 2010
  #408
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
No, of course i am not always right - but i do have an education, and i can see when others do not have that education.

What we are discussing right now is beyond the scope of Beers knowledge, how ever well versed he might be in harmonic theory...


...oohh, education is such a wonderful hammer to hit others over the head with heh
That's an interesting collection of statements. They translate in an unflattering type of way however. Where were you on the Steelydan hate thread?! LOL.

Anyhow, being a smart guy is about teaching someone something without making them feel insecure or dumb, like you're sharing knowledge and it's a mutual conversation. Feeling superior AND flexing a ridiculous vocabulary is a sure sign of a putzzzz...... (not refeferring to you BTW, just in general).

Education as a hammer?

I believe that statement sorta sums up alot of the responses you've gotten from other post, it just doesn't read well.
Old 8th April 2010
  #409
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monomer View Post
As soon as you start to attach symbols (of which certain behaviours like showing emotion can be part) to meaning then you have language...
And just where in music do you find these attached meanings?

That is exactly why music is not a language - because there is no meaning attached to individual notes, chords, rythms or whole songs.
Old 8th April 2010
  #410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monomer View Post
Do you know Shostakovich?
That guy described the complete flow of WWII in one of his works in minute detail, even some small battles that most of history forgot about.
But i guess that that's not communication or anything...
So, if there are no vocals in the work, and you know nothing about it at all, you can listen to it and determine which battles are being 'described'? This is really rather hilarious.
Old 8th April 2010
  #411
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monomer View Post
How can you express yourself without a language?
Who will hear you?
Now surely you're not claiming that nothing can make sound without a language. That's obviously absurd. So, you're point seems to be that by definition, any sonic expression a human makes is language. Well, man, if you want to declare it so by definition, then there is no arguing the point. It's true because you declare it so. But that is precisely what we're arguing about, and you are not understanding the arguments. Obviously.
Old 8th April 2010
  #412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
And just where in music do you find these attached meanings?

That is exactly why music is not a language - because there is no meaning attached to individual notes, chords, rythms or whole songs.
Oh, but you are very mistaken here.
Maybe not individual noted or chords, but chord progressions, interactions, melody and certainly whole songs/works are an example of language.
Now, you may not actually speak or understand that language, but some education goes a long way.
Old 8th April 2010
  #413
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
Just because an action can be used for communicative purposes that action is not a language.

There are many other forms of communication besides languages. Common to them all is though that these forms of communication are not able to express the senders intention with the communication as precisely as languages do.

???
HUh?

In my group of friends, a look says more than a mouth can.

You should come by for tea, LOTS of conversations without talking.
You'd have a blast, you might even learn something new.

Old 8th April 2010
  #414
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Quote:
Originally Posted by droolmaster0 View Post
Now surely you're not claiming that nothing can make sound without a language.
No, i'm not, which makes the rest of your post silly.

Quote:
That's obviously absurd. So, you're point seems to be that by definition, any sonic expression a human makes is language. Well, man, if you want to declare it so by definition, then there is no arguing the point. It's true because you declare it so. But that is precisely what we're arguing about, and you are not understanding the arguments. Obviously.
Old 8th April 2010
  #415
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steelyfan View Post
Feeling superior AND flexing a ridiculous vocabulary is a sure sign of a putzzzz...... (not refeferring to you BTW, just in general).
Kiddie voice: They started it, wahhh! heh

...read the first few pages of this thread and see how much contempt (hidden and not so hidden) some of the people with musical education show towards us that do not have that education.

A good example of that is Beers attitude that says that it is more or less impossible to make "music that speaks" without knowing your theory - basically implying that a huge percentage of people on these boards make **** music.
Because from what i have seen and heard on these boards so far, not many do have an actual musical education...
Old 8th April 2010
  #416
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
And just where in music do you find these attached meanings?

That is exactly why music is not a language - because there is no meaning attached to individual notes, chords, rythms or whole songs.

That is the strangest thing I've ever read on a music forum.
Old 8th April 2010
  #417
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Quote:
Originally Posted by droolmaster0 View Post
So, if there are no vocals in the work, and you know nothing about it at all, you can listen to it and determine which battles are being 'described'? This is really rather hilarious.
So you're saying that words are the only way to express a language?
Or that if you are presented with a text in a language that you do not know yet you should automaticly be able to understand it?
Hilarious indeed...
Old 8th April 2010
  #418
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Quote:
Originally Posted by droolmaster0 View Post
So, if there are no vocals in the work, and you know nothing about it at all, you can listen to it and determine which battles are being 'described'? This is really rather hilarious.
You're just so literal aren't you Droolz. Check the work out and listen to it up loud in a darkened room... Amazing stuff !
Old 8th April 2010
  #419
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monomer View Post
Oh, but you are very mistaken here.
Maybe not individual noted or chords, but chord progressions, interactions, melody and certainly whole songs/works are an example of language.
Now, you may not actually speak or understand that language, but some education goes a long way.
Just how daft are you?

Just because we can artificially systemize sounds and order them logically it still does not attach any MEANING to them.

"This note should follow that note" and "this chord should follow that chord" does not have any meaning in itself... It is just a system to order the sounds.
Old 8th April 2010
  #420
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beermaster View Post
You'd probably agree that to become a brain surgeon you'd need to have studied and practiced for twenty years to get to a level where your skill are up to the job?

You'd probably agree that to become a great painter you'd also have to spend much of your life learning your art

So why does it surprise you that to become an accomplished musician or composer and to be able to communicate properly with your music it also takes years and years of study and practice ?
Because one needs to know a very large set of facts about the brain and about medicine and the human body, and it takes a long time to learn these things. Even if someone had great potential in the field, we wouldn't want them operating on our brain without this....

however quite obviously talent can overcome a lack of long study and experience depending on the musical form. I mean, this has pretty much been established here, and now you're falling back on your elitist view again - in order to be very good at music, one needs years of study. Well, probably to write a symphony, but probably not to do various forms of electronic music, and it's all good. It depends, and your analogy is just silly.


And that's the thing - no one here has disagreed with that, and I'm sure Grumpph would agree that to write certain forms of music would take lots of study. So, who exactly are you arguing with?
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