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Music vs. sound? Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 8th April 2010
  #361
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Quote:
Originally Posted by droolmaster0 View Post
If you had some kind of human endeavor that had a deep structure similar to language, but was only used for something totally mundane (make something up here) you wouldn't call it a 'language'. It would have to DO what languages do, and my entire argument has been based on that - therefore you can't refute it by what you're doing - you're simply ignoring it.
a language is nothing more then a set generated by a grammar. A set of what you may ask? Depends on what kind of language we're talking about. I'm going abstract here, but it is very clear that there is a language of chairs, that of legs, flat surfaces, backs, materials, and a grammar of chairs that while having infinite possibilities at the end of the day always produces a chair. Either you agree with this concept of language and we move forward or you disagree and thats it.

Quote:
Sorry - but I don't defer to your education - it's like you're saying to trust you because
wise choice, nor would I!

Quote:
I asked you very simply what 'proving' a language means - and you again are telling me to research the field. Tell me what it is.
as mentioned before, to prove a language is to classify it. since language is THE alpha, it is the starting point; classification is the first step to understanding language properties, or rather, classifying grammars that implement a language. By understanding a language and a grammar, and proving that a grammar falls within the bounds of another grammar, and the language falls within the bounds of another language, we have proven a new language and grammar to be defined with the characteristics of a known grammar / language. We have proved the language.

consider the language of the tb 303. What kind is it? What kind of grammar implements the language of the tb 303?

Then take a step up...what kind of language describes the music of the tb 303? What is its grammar? Then take a step up...until you get to the universal language / universal grammar that describes exactly how man invented the tb 303, invented its sequencing system, invented a sequence and listened to the sequence and then *interpreted* the sequence.

Old 8th April 2010
  #362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crufty View Post
a language is nothing more then a set generated by a grammar. A set of what you may ask? Depends on what kind of language we're talking about. I'm going abstract here, but it is very clear that there is a language of chairs, that of legs, flat surfaces, backs, materials, and a grammar of chairs that while having infinite possibilities at the end of the day always produces a chair. Either you agree with this concept of language and we move forward or you disagree and thats it.
But there is a very deep mistake that you are making, which is that 'language' doesn't only have one meaning, and when people talk about music being a language in the general context that they are here - that's not what they mean. They don't mean that it is a 'set generated by a grammar'. You are talking about formal languages, and sorry - but that isn't the discussion. And besides all of that, I'd maintain that there is more going on with music than simply outcomes of grammars and rules.

And of course, I really doubt that anyone has proven that all possible musics are generated by a deep grammar (also unproven), and rules (where are they?)

So, what you are claiming is wrong conceptually (this isn't the notion of language that we're talking about - we are talking about them on a functional level), and total conjecture in any case.


Quote:
as mentioned before, to prove a language is to classify it. since language is THE alpha, it is the starting point; classification is the first step to understanding language properties, or rather, classifying grammars that implement a language. By understanding a language and a grammar, and proving that a grammar falls within the bounds of another grammar, and the language falls within the bounds of another language, we have proven a new language and grammar to be defined with the characteristics of a known grammar / language. We have proved the language.
But, even if you worked through this formal process somehow and 'proved' the structure of music, you wouldn't be proving that it functioned like a language, in that sense that most people consider a language, and it is being spoken about here. We are talking about a piece of music adhering to these formal deep structures and hence communicating specific things to listeners - and obviously, even if it somehow did the first, it doesn't do the latter. It does not function as a language.

The rest is silly.
Old 8th April 2010
  #363
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Plus, unlike English, for instance, there can be instances of music that don't follow any kind of conceivable rule generated by a deep grammar. I can record any sound at all, and in some contexts, it can be listened to as music. Unless anything goes (which certainly wouldn't be an instance of a 'language' constrained by a deep grammar and generative rules, music as we now understand it could not be an example of this.
Old 8th April 2010
  #364
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consider this true story:

yesterday, I was out to eat w/my family and our five yr old was telling us about his day. At the restaurant, a pop tune from 15 years ago or so came on, and our five year old started bobbing his head to the music. As he was telling us about what happened on the playground, he started wiggling his shoulders. soon he was on his knees on the chair wiggling in time to the music. Finally he was on his feet, dancing around his chair, eating his taco, telling us about his day.

the song ended he sat back down.

now...what happened here?
Old 8th April 2010
  #365
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crufty View Post
consider this true story:

yesterday, I was out to eat w/my family and our five yr old was telling us about his day. At the restaurant, a pop tune from 15 years ago or so came on, and our five year old started bobbing his head to the music. As he was telling us about what happened on the playground, he started wiggling his shoulders. soon he was on his knees on the chair wiggling in time to the music. Finally he was on his feet, dancing around his chair, eating his taco, telling us about his day.

the song ended he sat back down.

now...what happened here?
Just what you described. It does nothing to show that music is a language. You haven't listened to a word I've said, so I think that I will disengage from discussing this with you.
Old 8th April 2010
  #366
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Quote:
Originally Posted by droolmaster0 View Post
Plus, unlike English, for instance, there can be instances of music that don't follow any kind of conceivable rule generated by a deep grammar.
I agree we aren't getting anywhere...consider though, that deep grammar is in fact producing those improvisations, that might appear to both creator and listener as random, abstract sounds, barely meeting whatever personal criteria we have for music....and yet, the deep grammar has rules for it!

that is what blows my mind. almost like there really is a language of god that defines humanity, including our limitations as a species. It is right to try and deny this, for what a limiting perspective? Everything we do fits neatly within a box of finite dimensions but infinite space?

Old 8th April 2010
  #367
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Infinite trolls troll infinitely. (Nim Chimpsky)
Old 8th April 2010
  #368
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Whether music fits in to the strict academic definition of what a language is dosen't really matter as there will always be random people who'll protest and go against the grain if it does.

When I see one of the great jazz ensembles playing and watch the eye contact between the musicians in the zone as they trade phrases and feed off each other's playing... improvised lines that contain musical meaning in the scheme of a harmonic structure... I have no doubt that a dialogue is being held and that to me is one prime example of music as a language.... an one of the pinnacles of musical perfection.

Play the Debussy piano preludes to a random audience and without knowing what the titles are most people would write down words that come close if not nail the real titles of the preludes.

As has been said earlier it's very simple to sneak coded messages into music as morse code or binary... thats just as simple as putting in a hi hat line... or a banjo part .. ( as I did on a popular US kids TV series...shhhh! )

I think that there is so much evidence of the affect that music has on people to assume that music is a language... It's not as specific as some in some ways but it is so much more specific in others... the emotions it makes us feel and the energy to make people sing and dance... or cry or stun or stupefy

Without the right education tho... making music that speaks is very difficult.

Beer
Old 8th April 2010
  #369
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Quote:
Originally Posted by droolmaster0 View Post
Pretty close - not exactly what I'm saying, but much closer than the distortions that I'm hearing. In the case of music, a person may believe that he is communicating, and the listeners may believe that they are being communicated with, but yet they both derive something entirely different from it.
Yup. That's what happens in marriage heh

Actually I see the point you are trying to make - and I don't think it conflicts with the notion of expression.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crufty View Post
@grumph, babies usually don't start screaming by the way. That is a pattern we teach them
You obviously haven't watched a baby being born before.

Methinks you've been playing the P08 Pot Edition and that explains all that trippy talk you've been making...
Old 8th April 2010
  #370
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More irrelevancies, and more elitism. I'll engage in some myself. Without the 'right education' one can't understand arguments that are being made in a discussion, and winds up spouting the same irrelvancies over and over again. There - see what it feels like. Oh, and I'm not being elitist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beermaster View Post
Whether music fits in to the strict academic definition of what a language is dosen't really matter as there will always be random people who'll protest and go against the grain if it does.

When I see one of the great jazz ensembles playing and watch the eye contact between the musicians in the zone as they trade phrases and feed off each other's playing... improvised lines that contain musical meaning in the scheme of a harmonic structure... I have no doubt that a dialogue is being held and that to me is one prime example of music as a language.... an one of the pinnacles of musical perfection.

Listen to the Debussy piano preludes and without knowing what the titles most people would write down words that come close if not nail the real titles of the preludes.

As has been said earlier it's very simple to sneak coded messages into music as morse code or binary... thats just as simple as putting in a hi hat line... or a banjo part .. ( as I did on a popular US kids TV series...shhhh! )

I think that there is so much evidence of the affect that music has on people to assume that music is a language... It's not as specific as some in some ways but it is so much more specific in others... the emotions it makes us feel and the energy to make people sing and dance... or cry or stun or stupefy

Without the right education tho... making music that speaks is very difficult.

Beer
Old 8th April 2010
  #371
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Where is the elitism in that post ?
Old 8th April 2010
  #372
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I guess there's no elitism if all of us who disagree with you, really are as uneducated as you imply we are...
Old 8th April 2010
  #373
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Do people who are uneducated always feel that those with a better knowledge are by default elitist ?
Old 8th April 2010
  #374
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristianRock View Post
You obviously haven't watched a baby being born before.

Methinks you've been playing the P08 Pot Edition and that explains all that trippy talk you've been making...
lol. yeah birth is pretty traumatic, but consider they are feeling air for the first time! I can't say I blame the little dudes.

anyway, when you start getting into decidability, which is where all this language/grammar crap is really meant to be used, things get very interesting. I took a final once a million years ago, and it described a math problem to solve and asked a single, solitary question:

1) Given a computer of infinite memory and speed, could it solve the above problem before the end of the universe? Why?

Thats why I say this stuff is mind expanding. The nature of genetics, language, environment, problem solving, eventually at some point you start decoding the human condition. It's like that book macroscope, which had a device that could build itself from radio waves, and then decode those same radio waves again to build other devices (teleportation gates), etc etc etc. That's science fiction, but at the end of the day...that's the goal right? We aren't going to get there if we keep banging rocks together and praying to the lightening god to provide fire.

Music/art and science, I don't see a separation. One goes hand in hand with the other: you don't get to the moon without the electric guitar.

Old 8th April 2010
  #375
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beermaster View Post
Do people who are uneducated always feel that those with a better knowledge are by default elitist ?
LOL. Perhaps it's just so ingrained in you that you simply don't see it.
Old 8th April 2010
  #376
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beermaster View Post
Whether music fits in to the strict academic definition of what a language is dosen't really matter as there will always be random people who'll protest and go against the grain if it does.

When I see one of the great jazz ensembles playing and watch the eye contact between the musicians in the zone as they trade phrases and feed off each other's playing... improvised lines that contain musical meaning in the scheme of a harmonic structure... I have no doubt that a dialogue is being held and that to me is one prime example of music as a language.... an one of the pinnacles of musical perfection.

Play the Debussy piano preludes to a random audience and without knowing what the titles are most people would write down words that come close if not nail the real titles of the preludes.

As has been said earlier it's very simple to sneak coded messages into music as morse code or binary... thats just as simple as putting in a hi hat line... or a banjo part .. ( as I did on a popular US kids TV series...shhhh! )

I think that there is so much evidence of the affect that music has on people to assume that music is a language... It's not as specific as some in some ways but it is so much more specific in others... the emotions it makes us feel and the energy to make people sing and dance... or cry or stun or stupefy

Without the right education tho... making music that speaks is very difficult.

Beer
The ignorance is strong with this one...
Old 8th April 2010
  #377
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Quite extraordinary how quickly some people are quick to throw stones and call everyone who differs from their view point elitist... your crying witch after one henry's calm and eloquent posts.. way back in this thread


Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
The "need to attack" is probably because i get offended by your elitist (and closeminded) attitude.

...as shown in the statement above where you claim that "trained" people can do "whatever style of music they choose to".
What do you call a person who names people elitist at the drop of a hat ?
Old 8th April 2010
  #378
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beermaster View Post
Whether music fits in to the strict academic definition of what a language is dosen't really matter as there will always be random people who'll protest and go against the grain if it does.

When I see one of the great jazz ensembles playing and watch the eye contact between the musicians in the zone as they trade phrases and feed off each other's playing... improvised lines that contain musical meaning in the scheme of a harmonic structure... I have no doubt that a dialogue is being held and that to me is one prime example of music as a language.... an one of the pinnacles of musical perfection.

Play the Debussy piano preludes to a random audience and without knowing what the titles are most people would write down words that come close if not nail the real titles of the preludes.

As has been said earlier it's very simple to sneak coded messages into music as morse code or binary... thats just as simple as putting in a hi hat line... or a banjo part .. ( as I did on a popular US kids TV series...shhhh! )

I think that there is so much evidence of the affect that music has on people to assume that music is a language... It's not as specific as some in some ways but it is so much more specific in others... the emotions it makes us feel and the energy to make people sing and dance... or cry or stun or stupefy

Without the right education tho... making music that speaks is very difficult.

Beer
Well.... there's no second guessing your passion for music and the acknowledement of the magic that it contains to move us in a ..... favorable way. I agree with alot of what you said, I DO understand the language you are speakin, especially the jazz example about eye contact and feeding off the energy and ideas of your bandmates.... I used to do that everynight.....

"Show starts at 8:00 pm" was the gig info. over the phone I'd bring in my 4 piece and just wait for music to start....I'd listen, then play. Afterwords I would get the names of the people I just played with over a beer at the bar. LOL!

BUT....you lost me with the last sentence:
"Without the right education tho... making music that speaks is very difficult."

I couldn't disagree more. A great example of this would be Brian Eno. Eno is a self confessed NON - Musician and has made some of the most interesting, non conventional, and intelligently thought out music without knowing a guitar chord. Essentially, when you don't know the rules.....you're not really breaking any, but creating new ones! heh

I been a jazz snob all my life (well, since I was 17), and the biggest reason I hardly listen to any new jazz or really just jazz in general is because the talent and education always seems to get in the way of making interesting / cool music.

cheers,
steelyfan
Old 8th April 2010
  #379
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
The ignorance is strong with this one...
It's HIS opinion....

Your attitude really tells the tale here. Why is your "opinion" superior to his?

Ohh, because your're always right?

That's a hard way to ever learn anything..

tist tist...
Old 8th April 2010
  #380
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steelyfan View Post
It's HIS opinion....

Your attitude really tells the tale here. Why is your "opinion" superior to his?

Ohh, because your're always right?

That's a hard way to ever learn anything..

tist tist...
Are you even paying attention to what Beermaster is saying? In case you aren't, here's one of his posts:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beermaster View Post
Do people who are uneducated always feel that those with a better knowledge are by default elitist ?
Old 8th April 2010
  #381
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristianRock View Post
So here we now have one guy who's trolling his butt off, that or he's stoned out of his mind ("duuuuuude... a powerful computer could solve all this before the end of the universe... whoa duuuuude"). Then we have another one who thinks he's Marie Antoniette ("oh they stink, these uneducated peasants").
This thread is turning pretty classic.
your own score isn't too stellar to be honest. I stand by what I said as sober and accurate. but, whatever floats your boat! what's your take? I can't recall reading it.
Old 8th April 2010
  #382
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steelyfan View Post

BUT....you lost me with the last sentence:
"Without the right education tho... making music that speaks is very difficult."
What I meant is knowing what you're doing with experience and 'education' that being time spent to learn your thing... what ever method that may be... Eno didn't randomly suddenly out of the blue book a studio and start recording with no prior experience... He's worked with countless bands and studio projects.. writing and performing ... He's was as 'educated' as he needed to be.
Old 8th April 2010
  #383
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Quote:
Originally Posted by droolmaster0 View Post
I don't see how it could settle anything. How could that work?This is a philosophical/linguistic issue, not a brain science issue. Scientists reduce phenomena into tidy little bundles that they can quantify.
And how is philosophy and linguistics not a brain science?
Next thing you will tell us is that biology and chemistry has nothing to do with physics, right?
Old 8th April 2010
  #384
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristianRock View Post
Are you even paying attention to what Beermaster is saying? In case you aren't, here's one of his posts:

Cleverly taken out of context. well done.
Old 8th April 2010
  #385
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beermaster View Post
Quite extraordinary how quickly some people are quick to throw stones and call everyone who differs from their view point elitist... your crying witch after one henry's calm and eloquent posts.. way back in this thread




What do you call a person who names people elitist at the drop of a hat ?
heh Again you try to turn the table, labeling me "stonethrower" when all i did (along with a few others) was to point out that theory is not necessary in order to make good music.

I have not thrown any stones but a sentence like this "Without the right education tho... making music that speaks is very difficult." certainly makes you (and others who think like that) an elitist.

Calling you an elitist is just stating a fact.

And btw, there is nothing wrong with being an elitist - if you can remain humble about the fact that you actually know better than most others...

Unfortunately you seem to be an elitist who is not humble and thereby shows that he cannot even think out of the box he has created for himself...
Old 8th April 2010
  #386
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How was that out of context when it was a pretty self-contained post (and an entire post by itself)?
Anyway, it's here on this page, so people can just go up a few posts and read it and see if it's been misrepresented.
Old 8th April 2010
  #387
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Quote:
Originally Posted by droolmaster0 View Post
Just what you described. It does nothing to show that music is a language. You haven't listened to a word I've said, so I think that I will disengage from discussing this with you.
Do you know Shostakovich?
That guy described the complete flow of WWII in one of his works in minute detail, even some small battles that most of history forgot about.
But i guess that that's not communication or anything...
Old 8th April 2010
  #388
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crufty View Post
your own score isn't too stellar to be honest. I stand by what I said as sober and accurate. but, whatever floats your boat! what's your take? I can't recall reading it.
I talked about the concept of art being an expression rather than a language (basically feeding off of what Drool was saying), but I guess nobody paid attention.

I didn't know I had "score", btw.
Old 8th April 2010
  #389
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristianRock View Post
Are you even paying attention to what Beermaster is saying? In case you aren't, here's one of his posts:

Of course. But that's not the quote or opinion I'm responding to.
Old 8th April 2010
  #390
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steelyfan View Post
It's HIS opinion....

Your attitude really tells the tale here. Why is your "opinion" superior to his?

Ohh, because your're always right?

That's a hard way to ever learn anything..

tist tist...
No, of course i am not always right - but i do have an education, and i can see when others do not have that education.

What we are discussing right now is beyond the scope of Beers knowledge, how ever well versed he might be in harmonic theory...


...oohh, education is such a wonderful hammer to hit others over the head with heh
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