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Going soft??????? Yep, finally seen the light. yippeeeeee! Keyboard Synthesizers
Old 29th March 2010
  #151
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kilon's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoozer View Post

And that'd be correct. The Sun is not much more remarkable than any other star in the universe; it's that ball of iron and water with an atmosphere orbiting at the right distance that is.
Well that is open to alot of discussion as well. But is far from remarkable, many planets similar to Earth have been found, and probably when technology evolves we will find out ,that our Planet is just another boring planet.

The sun on the other hand, is far from any other sun in the universe as the majority of star are much smaller than out sun. Unique no , but then the same can be said about Earth as well.

Actually with the latest discoveries water exists almost anywhere in our solar system .

As I said, when someone talks vaguely, then he is prone to mistakes. Me included of course.
Old 29th March 2010
  #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pechnatunk View Post
Yoozer and Captain Proton

I often wonder whether people - even all you slutz - could hear the difference in a blind test.

If you play me a well encoded MP3 I may or may not be able tell that it was an MP3 by listening to 1 song. But play me 3 MP3's in a row and I will tell for sure, because by the time song 3 comes on I will be restless and wanting to get up and do something else. They are fatigueing in the extreme, I don't get the problem at all with vinyl, CD's I can concentrate for maybe 5 songs, MP3's make me feel like I am standing next to a flourescent tube, I get restless and gnarly.

Perhaps that's why I don't like playing virtual instruments, they just don't sit with me sonically at all, even if they do sound like the real thing.
Old 29th March 2010
  #153
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rachel's Avatar
1) please come back when you learn to spell "summary".

2) You just can't hug the plug.


rachel
Old 29th March 2010
  #154
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Yoozer's Avatar
Would the Accelerator do better if they simply left out the motion sensor but included plush sidepanels, and a cute mascot just above the display?

I think I've seen a Minimoog with tiger print fur once. heh
Old 29th March 2010
  #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoozer View Post
I think I've seen a Minimoog with tiger print fur once. heh
Tiger print on a Minimoog. Who would do such a terrible thing? heh

Leopard on the other hand:
Old 29th March 2010
  #156
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Yoozer's Avatar
That was the one! Now, that's something you can hug, and it's warm by default.
Old 29th March 2010
  #157
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flat's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by seen-da-sizer View Post
Tiger print on a Minimoog. Who would do such a terrible thing? heh

Leopard on the other hand:
Hey, I heard these things could growl, but ..... heh
Old 29th March 2010
  #158
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tyler477's Avatar
haha it's funny this thread turned into a slutty showcase of synths ..

why don't you post some pics of some awesome GUI
Old 29th March 2010
  #159
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Kola is no more a gearslut. no gear itb!

poor Kola.
Old 29th March 2010
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tyler477 View Post
why don't you post some pics of some awesome GUI
Careful what you wish for! heh

Old 29th March 2010
  #161
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Ossicle's Avatar
+ 1 for hybrid.

I wouldn't want to make my world black and white. I cannot see how anyone, at least in the current state of the art, could live with only hw/sw without seriously limiting oneself.

For me it's approximately

70% hw: synths, drums and processing for lo-fi/old schlool grit, air, warmth, interesting mistakes and imperfections.

30% sw: sequencing, recording, mixing, general processing (subtle eq, efx) and mastering.

I can see myself going slowly more into software in the next years but never completely giving up hw.
Old 29th March 2010
  #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triez View Post
If you play me a well encoded MP3 I may or may not be able tell that it was an MP3 by listening to 1 song. But play me 3 MP3's in a row and I will tell for sure, because by the time song 3 comes on I will be restless and wanting to get up and do something else. They are fatigueing in the extreme, I don't get the problem at all with vinyl, CD's I can concentrate for maybe 5 songs, MP3's make me feel like I am standing next to a flourescent tube, I get restless and gnarly.

Perhaps that's why I don't like playing virtual instruments, they just don't sit with me sonically at all, even if they do sound like the real thing.
I watch the guys at work with the headphones and I do not know how they
can concentrate. I have tried MP3's and plugins and both leave me feeling
that I have frazzled ears. I know this to be true, because I need to get
my ears syringed out and certain audio formats actually make my ears buzz. Likewise, plugins just sound all the same after awhile - buzz buzz buzz..... .....or is there something wrong with my hearing?! Certainly
doesn't happen to the same extent with a nice warm analogue synth.....


rachel
Old 29th March 2010
  #163
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Yoozer's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by rachel View Post
I know this to be true, because I need to get
my ears syringed out and certain audio formats actually make my ears buzz.
What about FLAC? That -should- play exactly the same material back as the original song on a CD. If you still hear the same buzz, it could be your headphones/soundcard, too.

Quote:
Likewise, plugins just sound all the same after awhile - buzz buzz buzz..... .....or is there something wrong with my hearing?!
At what bitrate and frequency do you use them?
Old 29th March 2010
  #164
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crufty's Avatar
Is goood yess...sell your synths....they are no good, they are worthless! Give them up. buy more software....

can sw do this?
Attached Files

777 snare.mp3 (1.58 MB, 122 views)

Old 29th March 2010
  #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rachel View Post
I watch the guys at work with the headphones and I do not know how they
can concentrate. I have tried MP3's and plugins and both leave me feeling
that I have frazzled ears. I know this to be true, because I need to get
my ears syringed out and certain audio formats actually make my ears buzz. Likewise, plugins just sound all the same after awhile - buzz buzz buzz..... .....or is there something wrong with my hearing?! Certainly
doesn't happen to the same extent with a nice warm analogue synth.....
So in other words you can only listen to analog synths directly or analog synths recorded on and played back from an analog medium?

Wow that sucks.
Old 29th March 2010
  #166
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zerocrossing's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by flat earth View Post
Recently I got to play a Minimoog Softsynth, I was astonished how close it sounded, almost shocked and began playing with zest. This however was where it ended. None of the mystery, emotion of the orginal was there. I felt no 'link' or 'feel' with the software, Its quite hard to describe the exact word for it, but a hardware synth is more than just sound, without sounding pretentious, theres almost an aura/emotion surrounding some synths that add to its charactor.

There will always be hardware synths, analogue or VA, and they 'will' feel different to any software synth, no matter how close they sound imho.
I might have written something like this a year ago, but I've learned a lot recently. I had an all VA/Digital hardware based studio for years and when I made the move to software it was easy and fun. The software sounded great, cost 1/10th the price and took up no physical space in my studio. I'm still of the mind that VA is VA and there are good and bad, but neither is inherently better. In my mind it all sounded just like the old vintage hardware it was meant to replace because the last time I played with that gear was probably the 80s and a little with my friend's Concertmate minimoog in the 90s.

Then the MoPho came out and I thought, "I wonder if there's something to this "analog magic" thing. There is. You can call it 4% better, and I agree that with some types of sounds the VA can emulate it almost perfectly, but for the types of sounds that it can't, the analog is 100% better. Anything with a fairly drastic filter sweep points at the issue with VA in a pretty harsh light. All this with the MoPho, which is totally a low end bargain basement analog with a DCO and non discrete filters. I'm not saying you should like the MoPho (I really do) but please don't tell me that any software can get that juicy bounce or that fuzzy squeal of an overdriven feedback riddled filter. Again, if you never use those types of sounds you're probably better off with minimonsta.

Speaking of, I started reading that DCOs and chips ala IC don't have the same characteristics as a good VCO with discrete circuitry based filter designs. I shrugged it off but I couldn't deny that I was wrong about the MoPho... so when I came across a Studio Electronics ATC-1 (a more modern moog style synth) at a cheaper price I figured it couldn't hurt to try as they seem to hold their value pretty well.

Well, it's not going to make me sell my MoPho or Prophet '08, but man that thing sounds great. It does have a velvety sweetness that the DSI synths don't have and that juicy filter... delicious.

So the moral to my story is, if you're making a comparison from memory your software will seem just as good, but that lack of aura/emotion/feel has nothing to do with some sort of juju Bob Moog sprinkled on his instruments. It's all due to the fact that they just simply sound a lot better for some types of sounds and somewhat better all around for those classic analog synth tones. It's not going to get me to sell all my VSTs. Zebra can run rings around my hardware for flexibility and lots of types of sounds. Sawer's got a character that none of my hardware has. Absynth can do magical things to an audio file. So there's no "right" tool. The right tool is the one you use to make music, but to those who think software like miniMonsta nails it, you're plain and simply wrong.
Old 29th March 2010
  #167
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Just wanted to point out that most synths today are digital anyway. The only difference it's that the signal is converted to analog in the output....

I say work in digital in the box, then process with hardware when doing the mix to get a different sound.
Old 29th March 2010
  #168
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kilon's Avatar
 

I think the secret about VA is CPU consumption... in short if you want digital analogueness that would make your moog embarassed, it wont come cheap. And I am not talking money here.

I am talking all about the complexity of the analogue sound that comes as "fat" to our ears. Soft synths that are good emulations pop up like mushrooms nowdays, they are not a majority but they becoming one.

The key diffirence nowdays is Dual Cores, Quad Cores and the the incoming Eight Cores. Obviously some of us have the privilidge to work on even 16 cores, but most VSt plugin are made to behave well on Dual Cores. I used to remember absynth taking 15% on my Pentium 4 1Ghz , but zebra 2 on my dual core eats up a 15% as well. Of course the diifrence between those 2 15% are tripple the amount.

I think that a software emulatio of an analogue is actually quite feasible but it could easily reach a 90% on a Dual Core a 50% on quad and that could make loads of people unhappy , because , most people love to make 100 track songs. At least most pros work like this. So CPU consumptio is an issue.

In the distant past when VSTs first came out 6-12 track was acceptable, so that is why that even a 20% CPU consumption from a single VST was acceptable. But now days if you want to cram in 20-30 tracks even a 15% is unacceptable, and even frozing/bounching tracks is always a valid option, is not a preferrable option becauseit decreases the "ease of use".

Personally I have done some crazy experiments with Reaktor, adding , slight delays, microchoruses and screwing abit with the processing of the signal inside the syths to make it abit more, chaotic and thus natural, it certainly made my sound fattier than a mad cow, but reassured me that my CPU was not really happy with it .

And that is the beauty with your hardware , that you can keep your CPU to 0% freeing up resources for mixing and all the audio candy.

But I dont doubt now that Cores are multiplying like gremelings in a swimming pool , that it is matter of time , till analogue synths look like vinyl .... obsolete ... but classic none the less.
Old 29th March 2010
  #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pier View Post
Just wanted to point out that most synths today are digital anyway. The only difference it's that the signal is converted to analog in the output....
Except for all the stuff from Analogue Solutions, DSI, Future Retro, Jomox, Mfb, Moog, Spectral Audio, Studio Electronics, Vermona... not to mention all the modular stuff like Analogue Systems, Cwejman, Doepfer, Blacet, Flame, Flight of Harmony, Harvestman, Livewire, Macbeth, Metasonix, MOTM, Tiptop, etc...
Old 29th March 2010
  #170
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Yoozer's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing View Post
Well, it's not going to make me sell my MoPho or Prophet '08, but man that thing sounds great. It does have a velvety sweetness that the DSI synths don't have and that juicy filter... delicious.
I got an SE1x especially because I didn't like any of the given Mini-like emulators (they're pretty ugly and I refuse to spend money on a company that tries to hook me on a dongle), and while the ASB was an option, it'd cost not much less than an SE1x; I got lucky and found one in great condition for 850 euros which is relatively cheap.

Quote:
So the moral to my story is, if you're making a comparison from memory your software will seem just as good, but that lack of aura/emotion/feel has nothing to do with some sort of juju Bob Moog sprinkled on his instruments. It's all due to the fact that they just simply sound a lot better for some types of sounds and somewhat better all around for those classic analog synth tones.
Well - part of the aura and juju is that there's simply no way whatsoever to kid yourself into thinking that you're playing a synthesizer when you're looking at the screen. The fact that a VA comes in its own separate box already helps with the suspension of disbelief.

The issue is - that box is easy to recreate and doesn't matter much in the grand scheme of things (as long as it's a box, with no wizard of Oz behind it). The sound is not; but if you can hear that filter squeal just as nicely after you've recorded it ITB, it's no longer a matter of "if" but of "when"
Old 29th March 2010
  #171
Quote:
Originally Posted by crufty View Post
Is goood yess...sell your synths....they are no good, they are worthless! Give them up. buy more software....

can sw do this?
and this?
Attached Files

arp.mp3 (1.04 MB, 112 views)

Old 29th March 2010
  #172
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Jetty's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by golden beers View Post
and this?
The worst thing is that in another "can you spot the difference" thread I actually thought the VST was the real one because it was JP8V It's not that bad an emulation when you do basic stuff.

Did you use crossmod on this sound? Or sync and pwm perhaps? Argh, got to listen again to see if I hear it
Old 29th March 2010
  #173
Quote:
Originally Posted by nofi View Post
it'd be very simple..... but it'd use a bunch of very hard to get and expensive ICs. and the price of them would go up even further as a result.

off the top of my head, a pro one contains:
3 x SEM3340 VCOs (ok, minimum 2. you could probably live with a substitute design for the LFO, maybe?)
2 x CEM 3310 ENVs
1 x CEM3320 VCF
not sure about the VCA? I think it's something relatively simple.

still.. an expensive exercise to clone this little plastic fella.
I got some of that in modules, but it doesn't sound much like a Pro-One.
(I wish...)
Old 29th March 2010
  #174
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alexp's Avatar
Quote:
Its all personal taste guys, just because many of the people here dont like trance, does not say much about the artists themselves .

This should be stickied, to everyone who gets involved with threads about gear, and offers nothing, except how much the artist or style of music the OP wants to create, is, in their eyes, ****. And eff me if there isnt a lot of that going on in this thread.


alexP
Old 29th March 2010
  #175
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Jetty's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexp View Post
This should be stickied, to everyone who gets involved with threads about gear, and offers nothing, except how much the artist or style of music the OP wants to create, is, in their eyes, ****. And eff me if there isnt a lot of that going on in this thread.


alexP
I also tried to provide friendly hints

Hey, let's not be so sensitive about this. Everyone has likes and dislikes, nobody really cares. Go on, diss everything I like, it really couldn't have bothered me less. I like it because I like it, not because someone else does or tells me to. Right?
Old 29th March 2010
  #176
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crufty's Avatar
i think the one message is, before the op sells off all his stuff, stick it in a closet for a year. If after a year the op pulls it out, fires it up, and is still good w/all sw, sell it then...otherwise there might be regret.

@gbeers, verry nice.

i sometimes wonder if there is a real, solid difference in otb va vs itb va. more then actual dsp code, intel could handle math differently then say arm / motorola / texas insts etc. dsp math is probably two pieces, one, being whatever kind of math operations a given chipset offers, and two, whatever library / compiler implements the math. So maybe its more then just chipset.

So there really could be a different sound for a given formula applied in different places.

*wanders off to stare into the sunset*
Old 30th March 2010
  #177
As a DJ, when I play Armin van Buuren ft Sharon den Adel - In and Out of Love in the clubs, people go nuts. If it was done either with a VST or hardware, I couldn't give two (you know what), just as long as the people are dancing (especially the hot girls), that's all I really care about. It's a great song by the way.
Old 30th March 2010
  #178
Gear Addict
 

You get to a point... you know... and I think we are there now... well... this is the part of the thread where people have stopped debating about the issue and are just going off about random stuff like they are above and beyond it all...
Thread goes downhill from this point on...
Old 30th March 2010
  #179
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There are pros and cons to everything, here I will simply list what I think can be some pros on the hardware side / reasons analog mixer and external synth / fx setup can be nice :

Reliability : The computer does not necessarily have to be turned on, less software centric setup means less installation hassle and upgrade path worry and less demand on computer so perhaps better reliability. [con wires break]

Availability : A hardware control surface is usually available in a dedicated spot, usually resulting in fewer onscreen window locations to navigate through and manage. Sometimes hardware can be very fast. [con if setup is not right can be slow]

Fine control : Analog controls do not have limited digital resolution, making it easier / possible to dial in the really groovy settings, especially for ducking compressors and things requiring very fine control. Some hardware just works better, such as reverb and compressors, better sound quality from dedicated resources, stability / reliability not dependent on host. [con settings not save-able, can force spontaneity though ]

Live jamming : It may be easier to create a setup where several people jamming at once in the same room, each with their own external synths/samplers/controllers plugged into a hardware mixer, than to create a similar setup in a DAW with multiple soft-sampler instances all have individual controllers at once (just guessing but the routing may be a pain).

Ergonomics : controlling everything with a mouse sitting in one exact position is too strenuous on the arm, varying arm / body positions in healthy ways in the studio is good, hardware can add variety. [cons, poorly positioned hardware can be a problem]

Routing options : hardware mixer and patchbay can be more immediate and less confusing than some situations when internal routing in and between software applications. Complex routing in software often needs big CPU.

Most people that have hardware use software as well so its not an either or choice so much as just another layer of options which may be good in certain situations.

More cons of hardware, takes up space, wires break, generates heat, expensive, strange little operating systems and procedures, delicate, can be cumbersome to work with etc, etc..

Probably not the most balanced or complete view, but ..
Old 30th March 2010
  #180
Gear Maniac
BORING...





More synth battles I say.
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