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Going soft??????? Yep, finally seen the light. yippeeeeee! Keyboard Synthesizers
Old 28th March 2010
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Proton View Post
Just a very quick and non eq'd snapshot of the Pro 1 doing a simple bass.

The first bass part is 2 oscilators with a bit of hard sync. The second bass part is just a simple open filter 1 osc sawtooth, no programming needed it's as simple as it gets. It's not eq'd so is as is.

The bass line is very simple C octaves so you should be able to replicate it in any vsti synth. Have a go, upload the results.
Well the synth is one thing but the rapper on the end bit? heh

Report: Many Rappers May Suffer From Unrealistically High Self-Images | The Onion - America's Finest News Source
Old 28th March 2010
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flat earth View Post
Fantastic sound!thumbsup

Pro-One is a very ballsy bass machine. (Possibly the best imho).
Cheers dude

This is the first track I am working on with the new all analog setup, I almost think I have too many analogs with the 5 I now have (6 if you include the SVC 350 Vocoder).

I could write complete tunes with just the Pro 1 and Odyssey I reckon.

Another point, Vince Clarke went all soft and then.......HAVE YOU SEEN HIS NEW STUDIO! Sorry to shout but MAN!!! It's all analog for a reason he he.

But seriously Vsti analog guys, let's have a good old gear old shootout. Replicae the bass line with any soft synth.... no distortion plugins though... thats cheatin' This could be a really good, clean adult debate with audio examples....yes really....let's have some audio examples
Old 28th March 2010
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockmanrock View Post

Oh dude, you should hear the full song, it's not cheesy in the slightest although that clip does not do it any justice at all. The guy doing the vocals is ....well I wont say who he is....but the whole track is hilarious piss take on a Pole Dancer lover. Can't post anymore as I'm working on the track and doing a mix vs mix with my good friend Jazz Thieves who posts on this forum.

Think hard bouncy non pretentious early electro....trying to do something a bit different from the usual same old same old.
Old 28th March 2010
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Proton View Post
Oh dude, you should hear the full song, it's not cheesy in the slightest although that clip does not do it any justice at all. The guy doing the vocals is ....well I wont say who he is....but the whole track is hilarious piss take on a Pole Dancer lover. Can't post anymore as I'm working on the track and doing a mix vs mix with my good friend Jazz Thieves who posts on this forum.

Think hard bouncy non pretentious early electro....trying to do something a bit different from the usual same old same old.
No worries, I'm not a H8t0r
Old 28th March 2010
  #125
Gear Guru
 
Yoozer's Avatar
How's this for the sync part?

Since U-He ACE doesn't have a ramp generator, only sawtooth, I can't do the second bass properly. However, the waveform of your file suggests that there is a filter envelope enabled. I'll let DCAM give it a try.
Attached Files

proone.mp3 (555.8 KB, 168 views)

Old 28th March 2010
  #126
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Jetty's Avatar
 

Bands are now out, people making music together should restrict themselves to LAN-parties!

Well, I think Kola got one thing right. Hardware is hassle. But coming from 10 years in the box (started with trackers ) I can really say that sw is nothing like hassle free. This message has been embedded in my sarcasm, I hope someone saw it if they read the first page
Old 28th March 2010
  #127
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Much Cudos Yoozer for rising to the challenge.

I would class Uhe Ace as probably the closest analog emulation around...certainly for the filters.

Whilst you got close with the sync sound I still felt it was only close in texture but not in aggressive power and presence. Really don't want to sound like a snobby wine taster with my descriptions but the Pro 1 did win in sheer presence and prowess.

The second part of the bass line really does show where even on a very simple patch the analog bass still has the full none fuzzy aliasing sound that vsti's suffer with. You are right though, I remember riding the Envelop to filter knob a bit with that take. But it is totally a straight single osc sawtooth no resonance sound.

I feel the Pro 1 does win out enough to warrant the purchase and pain in the arse'ness of owning and purchasing an analog synth. What did you think though?

Hope you didn't take the above as any downer on your attempt, I do want to encourage audio examples 100% Top job for putting up
Old 28th March 2010
  #128
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Yoozer's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Proton View Post
Whilst you got close with the sync sound I still felt it was only close in texture but not in aggressive power and presence. Really don't want to sound like a snobby wine taster with my descriptions but the Pro 1 did win in sheer presence and prowess.
Well, the only excuses I have is that ACE's not really modeled on a Pro-1 and that I was auditioning through headphones. It is sort of genericized, just with an analogish-sounding implementation.

There are knobs that determine the amount of crosstalk and oscillator slop, and those were used to get closer to your sound. I really like those kind of details on emulations - instead of forcing you to take claims of "perfect emulation" for granted just because they rendered the front panel in 3d , you get to tinker with some neat backdoors in the analog model. On "sterile" VAs (those that don't seek to emulate any character in particular or provide a Platonic, idealized model of a synthesizer) that would require a trip to the modulation matrix, or it's just flat out impossible.

Quote:
I feel the Pro 1 does win out enough to warrant the purchase and pain in the arse'ness of owning and purchasing an analog synth. What did you think though?
I think you're right. I just wish there were more of 'm and that they were more reliable, or that their respective parts were available in modular form.

If they can tackle a 303 with a x0xb0x, surely a Pro-One in 2U or 3U rack form shouldn't be completely impossible (just let it be that, or an Arp Odyssey, we've got enough Minimoogish ones now). As the x0xb0x project also demonstrates, it doesn't make much of a dent in the prices of the existing vintage population.
Old 28th March 2010
  #129
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True 100% I wish there were re issues of dedicated oscilators of vintage mono's in modular form.

The weird thing is looking at the Pro 1 mainboard there really isn't that much to it.

I think it's a reliable synth if you look after it, I've just done the knobs with Deoxit and it's like new. Wish I knew about that before I replaced all the Odysseys faders :(

Re capping the power supply should keep it going for a while as well.

A lot of reasons why the old synths sound better as well compared to modern analogs is that back in the day even in real terms i.e inflation adjusted.... they were damn expensive. So the build quality was that much more, although the build quality on the Pro 1 is pants.

Modern synths have to compete with dsp synths and usually have to cut corners like the SE-1X having digital envelopes and lfo's. It would just be too expensive to build it all analog. For a newby getting into analog synths I would say build a very basic modular and build it up slowly as you get to learn it.

The beauty of todays studio's is that you have unlimited tracks so you can keep bouncing your 1 analog synth ad infitinum where as before you would run out of tracks before parts.
Old 28th March 2010
  #130
Gear Guru
 
Yoozer's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Proton View Post
A lot of reasons why the old synths sound better as well compared to modern analogs is that back in the day even in real terms i.e inflation adjusted.... they were damn expensive.
Yeah, but an additional cause was having to be assembled by hand instead of letting a machine populate a PCB. You couldn't quickly fix any assembly runs, routing software was nonexistent so you couldn't find an optimal solution quickly so that means either lots of work or lots of separate PCBs. Which had two layers and that was it.

I wonder if SPICE has a setting so it can draw those curvy fat lines of solder instead of the thin angular ones heh
Old 28th March 2010
  #131
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Mr. Varaldo's Avatar
So I haven't seen his instruments on eBay yet... does anybody have a link to them?
Old 28th March 2010
  #132
Gear Head
 
jholmes's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by VCOrhubarb View Post
A real artist would immediately design and make their own synthesizer. Everybody uses those Rolands, Korgs and Moogs. Oh, where's the integrity?
heh
You should try this sometime. It can be quite fun. It's very revealing to see at first hand what makes the old analogs so special and sought after. I would even recommend it to the OP if he is worried about not having any nice hardware around to inspire him. No easy, "instant instant instant" process can make up for a rigorous, high quality education. And, these qualities will show through in your music.
Old 28th March 2010
  #133
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The biggest thing for me about software is that it becomes vintage every time there is an operating system update from Microsoft or Apple. And you have to keep buying it. Over and over. (Any Waves users here?) I have a crate of expensive, obsolete boxes/disks of VST instruments that cost a small fortune new, and now are useless. Steinberg are legendary for doing this. You constantly have to stay on top of updates, serial numbers, dongles, OS versions...

And, in the end, in 5-10 years time most VSTi's will be lost, obsolete or forgotten, just like all the other Apps that people spend so much money on, just like all of the lost digital photos, lost emails and all of the other things that have a habit of vanishing off hard drives.

I use plenty of software, mostly DAW's ( Nuendo, ProTools), but I don't use VSTi's as I find them fatiguing to use and to listen to. I completely accept that for a professional with deadlines for TV as an example that software is essential and a blessing, compact, total recall, massive sound libraries instantly, that is what software is great for. If you have no money, it is also wonderful that there are so many free or cheap virtual instruments out there that you can get creative with. Software has it's place.

But for me as a musician I want an instrument to play that doesn't arrive on a CD ROM and is played with a mouse. I hate playing with latency. And when the virtual Prophet 5 and virtual Jupiter 8 are abandonware that won't work under the current OS, I don't want to have to buy them all again just so that I can play the brittle, laggy, fatiguing MP3 version of a real instrument.

To play for enjoyment I have never found a Software instrument that was nice to play in the way a real instrument is. If I was working to a deadline on a big project, or had a TV score to bring in every week, then I would go virtual all the way, because that is where virtual instruments shine.

Just my 2 cents, in the end it is only an opinion ;-) And, of course I would be biased, I am lucky in that I get to be around the real thing all the time, so I get to see the real difference in sound quality and playability in a unique way. People do make great tracks using virtuals every day, no doubt, so it all depends on your own experience and mindset in the end.
Old 28th March 2010
  #134
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nofi's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoozer View Post
If they can tackle a 303 with a x0xb0x, surely a Pro-One in 2U or 3U rack form shouldn't be completely impossible
it'd be very simple..... but it'd use a bunch of very hard to get and expensive ICs. and the price of them would go up even further as a result.

off the top of my head, a pro one contains:
3 x SEM3340 VCOs (ok, minimum 2. you could probably live with a substitute design for the LFO, maybe?)
2 x CEM 3310 ENVs
1 x CEM3320 VCF
not sure about the VCA? I think it's something relatively simple.

still.. an expensive exercise to clone this little plastic fella.
Old 28th March 2010
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nofi View Post
it'd be very simple..... but it'd use a bunch of very hard to get and expensive ICs. and the price of them would go up even further as a result.

off the top of my head, a pro one contains:
3 x SEM3340 VCOs (ok, minimum 2. you could probably live with a substitute design for the LFO, maybe?)
2 x CEM 3310 ENVs
1 x CEM3320 VCF
not sure about the VCA? I think it's something relatively simple.

still.. an expensive exercise to clone this little plastic fella.
From memory the VCA is a CA3280, same as in the P5. Still obtainable but AFAIK out of production.
Old 29th March 2010
  #136
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Derp's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JEBEQ View Post
I sold all my Hardware at one point because all my music friends were jealous at what i had and they convinced me to just work out of the box. What a HUGE mistake that was. it lasted a couple months and then I was just jonesing for all my hardware.
That's a weird situation, isn't it? I've got a friend that swears up and down by pirated warez and thinks that hardware is a waste of money. He's constantly trying to sell me on the idea of dumping it all and using Cubase as my main instrument. It almost sounds tempting, but then I listen to his music and realize that not only is it all Omnisphere presets, but it was also mixed on a pair of PC speakers.
Old 29th March 2010
  #137
there's some good (and bad) points made so far. yet another variation on the same theme thats popped up countless times.. anyways here's my go:

"seen the light. yippeeee" is an inflamatory statement, especially in a predominantly hardware obsessed community like gearslutz. try doing a search and find a thread in a similar vein and contribute to it. if you're not looking to start a **** fight maybe you're looking for some kind of validation for your choices (much?) then the interwebz is not ideal as these communities tend to focus on specific mutually-reinforcing norms/values and aren't representative of the larger body, even of something specific like electronic music composers.

ok, now that thats out of the way when it comes to hands-on control of software i use an m-audio keystation pro 88. "pants" is a major understatement the build quality is more like but there's 24 knobs and assignment in logic is handled in under 30 seconds (and can be recalled). i also use ni komplete and kore, which is very conveniently mapped out, searchable, etc and is customizable & recallable with custom tags, etc etc

many tools are better itb like samplers (& romplers), drums imo, etc. you might not be able to get exactly the same patches as say a vx 5080 but there are enough easy substitutions its kind of a mute point for many of us. fm doesn't sound the same itb (i use a tx7 with dx7 librarian in osx) but fm8 is also very useable. eps & organs aren't 100% either but there are many adequate sample libraries that cover my needs.

where a lot of people have beef seems to be with analog osc, filters, vca vs dca, etc. i'm going to go out on a limb and say the entire tonal pallet possible with these tools is kinda limited. i have a couple soft synths that i use to get me most of the way there. they don't sound like my voyager rme or super jupiter did but having $4000 tied up in these synths just didn't make sense to me (as a student in a recession). they were very cool and fun to play but in the end luxury items and unnecessary for me personally.

this summer i'm considering getting omnisphere and trillian (analog and other bass) then that will be the final nail in the coffin for analog gear lust methinks. i think for assigning controls to plug-ins stuff like novation automap and nocturn make a good solution. plus i'm hoping they release touch screen drivers for osx so i can buy a couple $300 dell touch screen monitors and put them behind my keystation pro. then i can "touch" my plug ins although its not the same tactile experience i think its going to be awesome if/when its implemented well. something like a snappy iphone/ipad response with redesigned gui for touch... my 3c
Old 29th March 2010
  #138
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Derp's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by plaid_emu View Post
I generally don't use the TI much for bread and butter analog sounds either.

Since Access implemented OS 3 + 4... the Virus is really shaping up to be the king of Swiss Army synths.
My TI2 has become a bit of a workhorse lately. I've been having trouble with focusing lately, so what I've been doing is making my music with just the TI2, the MPC1000 for drums, and a guitar. I think this is the true strength of the TI2 is that it can fill so many rolls and do them all simultaneously because of that huge polyphony count. Once I've got a few songs together, I'm going to be going back and replacing parts with analog synths, but what I love about the Virus is that because of the awesome things it can do, there's a lot of those parts that aren't going to need replacing because while there's things analogs can do that the Virus can't, there's a whole lot that the Virus can do that the analogs can't. 'Best of both worlds' indeed!
Old 29th March 2010
  #139
one more issue: cost
when it comes to recouping the cost of software it ain't happening! its your money and you should research the company you're buying from. what's their track record for support? (i'm looking at you steinburg and motu) are all of the updates paid? (waves) etc. if so, don't give them your money, simple. you can't always know this in advance but researching and sites like this helps soo much. also, itb you don't need the latest os, latest copy of live, etc. they make one every year its pretty much the same ****. if you have a set up that works great! don't fix it if it ain't broken.

for people that have a bazilion options and whatnot you're either a pirate or spent a lot of money on redundant softwr. stick to some players that have an excellent reputation for support & updates and learn them before buying the next big thing. i usually wait like a year after something like omni is released to see if its still the bomb (and yes eric is still the king). nobody's mentioned losing a couple hundred dollars on some hardware purchases?! (like my virus c sold it after the ti2 came out). buying new synths totally don't keep their value...

Last edited by gregwar; 29th March 2010 at 02:35 AM.. Reason: spellings
Old 29th March 2010
  #140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kola View Post
no one any serious points?

Van burrin mixes totally within the box. Suppose trance sucks because of him too?

Just to clarify a point, even Van Buuren has a fair amount of hardware that he uses, esp the voyager, you can see it all in the FM article that was quoted before. Mixing itb, which I also do, is not the same as using just vst's. I won't comment on modern trance since I have nothing god to say about it.

The regular debate over which is better? Alex P and Entrainer both explained it well.

@soultrane - sadly you are right, since music is not my main source of income, I try and refuse to follow this "race to the bottom". But generally that is where we are going.

@ sameal - nanoloop is great fun, go for it man.


One thing I have learned from GS and close friends with many years in the business is that you can't be serious about your work if you don't pay for what you use. It says a lot about the mindset and approach of many people in edm these days.


.
Old 29th March 2010
  #141
Gear Head
 

well, i'll just add some thoughts to the clusterf*** here...

I have a good amount of hardware and lots of software, and have made music on both, and have made a lot of different kinds of music. I think some of my best music i've ever made was done on an old computer, all in the box except for a cheap microphone and a minidisc recorder... out straight into the onboard 1/8" mic input.

I just got some of my first real income from music, got paid a few thousand bucks, and it was the music I made with that very same setup. This was AFTER I had spent all that money on gear

Anyway, I love working in hardware, I think some of it certainly does sound better than the software equivalent (like distortions, reverbs), but I think the history of music has always been about musicians being creative with the tools they have, and I think the hard/soft analog/digital dichotomy is very dumb. Saying one is inherently superior to the other is especially dumb.

I was just reading this book
Tape Op: The Book About Creative Music Recording
and it reminded me I need to be wayy more humble about music equipment . This is Gearslutz though I guess .
Old 29th March 2010
  #142
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PeteJames's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by soultrane View Post
nowadays, the BEST we can hope for is that a few thousand people will RIP OFF your music via mp3, or access it on youtube or whatever, and that will increase your name recognition and you'll be able to go do live shows and sell t shirts with your logo on them.
So true. Makes me feel like The less money artists make the more likely they are to steal software and music too as they can't afford to feed their addiction. The music industry may eat itself.
Old 29th March 2010
  #143
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Derp's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by VCOrhubarb View Post
Everybody uses those Rolands, Korgs and Moogs. Oh, where's the integrity?
heh
My rig is a bit weird in that I don't have any synths from the Big 3. Only big name synth gear I have is the Andromeda, a couple pieces from Sequential, the MPC, and a Virtuoso 2000. Everything else is boutique guys like MFB, Analogue Solutions and Spectral Audio. It ended up this way by accident, but it's still a pretty neat little studio aesthetic to have.
Old 29th March 2010
  #144
Gear Maniac
Yoozer and Captain Proton

Hell Yeah!!

That's what I wanna see - actual tests and some real competition not just hearsay and 2 cents.

I often wonder whether people - even all you slutz - could hear the difference in a blind test.

To be fair - hardware users could take it easy on the tweaking and include a midi file.

Anyway...
continue.
Old 29th March 2010
  #145
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Acid Hazard's Avatar
I've gone partly soft now. I've gotten a laptop, and with the endorsement from D16, i figured it's time to check out Ableton. I got a Novation Launch Pad and it came with Ableton "Launch Pad Version". Which is basically a crippled but still very usable version. So now i have a 606 and a 909, sort of =o] While not as instant gratification as the real things, they sound practically indistinguishable from the real things. Especially in a mix. And with the way Ableton works, it's exactly how i want to work. Pattern based and on the fly. I can use the L.P. to change patterns, control plug in parameters, and mixer volumes. I use the Remote Zero SL to control all the parameters on Drumazon and Nithonat.

Is this the same as having the real things? No. Is it good enough? You bet. Will i ditch my hardware and bow down to the software god? Fuk no! All this siftyware will be obsolete in a few short years. My 303, 101, 707, x0xb0x etc... will still be right here and viable.

Sounds like the OP is straight up lazy. Too bad there isn't a "Moar Gooder" button eh?
Old 29th March 2010
  #146
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Derp's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acid Hazard View Post
Sounds like the OP is straight up lazy. Too bad there isn't a "Moar Gooder" button eh?
I think this is what he needs:

Old 29th March 2010
  #147
Gear Guru
 
Yoozer's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by pechnatunk View Post
I often wonder whether people - even all you slutz - could hear the difference in a blind test.
An ideal blind test would have 3 synthesizers next to eachother; 2 of slightly different revisions (so they'd differ in sound anyway, even a little bit) and the third containing no analog guts - but a silenced computer running the plugin or DSP, with all the knobs hooked up in such a way that there's no significant difference in scaling. All with matched levels, of course.

If someone -then- can't find a difference (or enjoys playing the fake one just as much as the real ones) then you have reliable test results.

The question is if such a test isn't way more of a hassle than simply redoing the original circuitry - even with rare ICs (how expensive would it be to build more?).

I'll give DCAM a workout tonight to see if I can match the second bassline It's a tricky one - it sounds a bit more like a square wave than a saw wave, even though the waveform looks like a ramp - but not quite.
Old 29th March 2010
  #148
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So has this thread uncovered any new ground on the software vs hardware debate?
Old 29th March 2010
  #149
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kola View Post

Music to sell cars to.
Old 29th March 2010
  #150
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kilon's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteJames View Post
I know, I've just been reading it

Armin's Pearls of Wisdom:

"I make what they call underground dance music"

"DJs won’t play your record if it doesn’t sound enough like the other records"

" A little while ago you had Deadmau5, with his sound, then you had people copying Deadmau5. We were listening to Deadmau5 as well, so our sound was a little influenced by that."

"I try to follow the trends as well"

"all my biggest tracks were written in under two hours”

"I don’t even hear the difference between a 192kbps and a 320kbps MP3"

"I know it’s really boring, but read some articles or buy a book about synthesis."

"You’ve got to try and make a little difference, even if 90 percent of it is copies of other people’s ideas.”

So In Summary We Have Learned:

Copy everyone else, mostly
Try to sound like everybody else especially if they are popular
Following trends is crucial
Don't put much time into your tracks
Listen to tracks on expensive monitors with low bit rates
Try to learn synthesis even though learning synthesis sucks
I know that may appears to you that this guy gives wrong advice but he actually gives the best advice I would give to anyone.

I agree with the above 1.000.000%

an d especially what he says about mp3, I dont get all the fuss about them as well, and all the audiophile hysterial. Anything beyond 192 sounds excellent and the same to my ears.

I also love Ambient music and find that Brian Eno sucks . What does this say about Brian Eno ?

Its all personal taste guys, just because many of the people here dont like trance, does not say much about the artists themselves .
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