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Going soft??????? Yep, finally seen the light. yippeeeeee! Keyboard Synthesizers
Old 27th March 2010
  #31
Gear Addict
 

I cannot even be bothered to read that. Your an idiot and have just showed the world that fact.
Old 27th March 2010
  #32
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Jetty's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kola View Post
I cannot even be bothered to read that. Your an idiot and have just showed the world that fact.
Take your angry pills, you're way out of line.
Old 27th March 2010
  #33
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kilon's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kola View Post
I can honestly not believe tyler.

He thinks VA synths like the Ti and the JP sound different to any VST and openly preaches this crap.
When someone looks at a hardware va and says "it nothing more than a software in a box" they are like children looking at the sun and saying "look mom a ball of fire" .

As I hobbist programmer, I can say to you that your above statement is plain wrong. Not even a single VST sound similar to another. The effort that the software developer put behind the programming is what counts more.

The truth about hardware synths is that there have been long enough here to see some of the best products come out.

On other hand you are right VSTs are plain better. Its that simple. They are cheap, they can sound as good as the best VAs out there , they are flexible and much more manageable.

So why I have chosen to follow the opossite direction and go all hardware ?

Its one of the reason you mentioned , how I feel about it.

Something inside me makes me hate mouse and the way VSTs operate, the hands on control in sort.

About analogues again I think 25% is too much , my andromeda sounds about 4% better than my best VST, Zebra 2. Worth to mention here that I worked with soft synths since before the era of soft VST synths , since 1997.

But the last 3 years I work 100% with hardware. I dont think that will ever change unless software is made 100% controlable by MIDI controllers with zero setup.

I dont think all trance sucks. For me Paul Oakenfold is one of the demi gods electronic musicians and his work on the soundtrack "SWORDFISH" is one of the best electronic music ever created. Also Psychedelic trance have been for many years pioneer in electronic music , even though my ear can no longer stand it, I have been influenced by ti deeply and some sound I heard in this genre never heard it in any other genre of music.

So yes VSTs are the best, and good luck to you, but for me is 100% hardware.

But I hope one day a MIDI surface will exist that with minimum setup I will be able to control my favorite Synthesizer of all time.

REAKTOR!
Old 27th March 2010
  #34
Gear Addict
 

@ Jetty - I have nothing further to say to you so dont reply any further.

@ Kilon - Ah, another person with a brain offering intelligent conversation. Thank you.

Some great points also. I too have been 100% hardware for all of my life. However lately I have noticed that hardware gets in the way of my productivity.

As said, im not saying hardware sucks. Im more saying why I am going to give software a true go. The reason I posted here and not o the software forum is because there everyone would just agree and I wanted intelligent conversation.

Cant believe how many fools get on here though. Yourself not included.
Old 27th March 2010
  #35
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kilon View Post
However the final final final straw came yesterday when I tried to get my JPs filter to be controlled from live. I put 6 hours into this. I gave up. Downloaded a demo of Vangaurd (an low budget soft synth) and within 5 minutes I had it sorted without any manual or socks and shoes off.
why couldn't you control the filter in live ? it cant be that hard

hardware is more enjoyable . thats why I like it . It may or may not be supersonically superior but I really don't care. it makes me happier
Old 27th March 2010
  #36
Gear Addict
 

[QUOTE]
I dont think that will ever change unless software is made 100% controlable by MIDI controllers with zero setup.
[/QUOTE


^^ Wouldn't that be a dream come true :]
Old 27th March 2010
  #37
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Jetty's Avatar
 

The last time you tried to have an intelligent conversation you got a warning from a moderator, Kola.
Old 27th March 2010
  #38
Gear Addict
 

Quote:

hardware is more enjoyable . thats why I like it . It may or may not be supersonically superior but I really don't care. it makes me happier
Great Arkon. Then stick with it buddy. But for me its time to move on.

WHatever gets the best end results I say
Old 27th March 2010
  #39
Gear Addict
 

Jetty - please go away
Old 27th March 2010
  #40
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Jetty's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kola View Post
Jetty - please go away
Actually, I am! Need to go downtown buy some clothes for my kiddo and make some measurement on Spider Pro to see if I can fit my stuff properly and as planned.
Old 27th March 2010
  #41
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flat's Avatar
I can offer maybe an tangible situation regarding Hardware over Software.

About a year ago, I finally got to play a Minimoog. I spent a couple of hours exploring, reeling off (badly) Thomas Dolby solos, making the speakers shudder, and generally thoroughly enjoying myself. I have to say that was an experience for me.

Recently I got to play a Minimoog Softsynth, I was astonished how close it sounded, almost shocked and began playing with zest. This however was where it ended. None of the mystery, emotion of the orginal was there. I felt no 'link' or 'feel' with the software, Its quite hard to describe the exact word for it, but a hardware synth is more than just sound, without sounding pretentious, theres almost an aura/emotion surrounding some synths that add to its charactor.

There will always be hardware synths, analogue or VA, and they 'will' feel different to any software synth, no matter how close they sound imho.
Old 27th March 2010
  #42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetty View Post
The last time you tried to have an intelligent conversation you got a warning from a moderator, Kola.
and you're really close yourself. heh
chill everybody, and discuss some gear.
IMO hybrid, though latency of the DAW (macbookpro with trimmings) is really messing me up.
Old 27th March 2010
  #43
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kilon's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by flat earth View Post
Recently I got to play a Minimoog Softsynth, I was astonished how close it sounded, almost shocked and began playing with zest.

Is it true ? are we talking about Arturia's Minimoog ? cause their CS-80v really sucks ... if it is true then I must download this and try it.
Old 27th March 2010
  #44
ok i'm going to be a bit nasty. please don't take it personally, i'm sure you're a good guy. this is all just for argument sake

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kola View Post
Why I choose VSTs over hardware

1 – Face it, I love instant. Instant instant instant. What I cannot stand is learning curves. Each hardware synth requires a learning curve where if your all in the box you learn the DAW what you have to learn anyhow for the hardware and that’s it. You’re done. The technology never gets in the way..
this thinking is quite wrong.
i'm talking about learning curves here.
i've found hardware does not have to have a tough learning curve at all.






most hardwares are similar versions of each other. eg
  • FX. you know how one FX box works you know how they all work, there's just some variants in terminology and architecture but there all basically the same, some very deep true but on the whole i can master 90% of FX boxes within ten minutes.
  • compressors: once you know the theory of it they are all the same.
  • synths, same again. some are easier than others. but if you know your theory something like an SH09 = zero time to learn, you already know it before you've even touched the thing.
and to say software is always easier to learn is crazy.



Quote:
2 – Interested in a new plug in? Well trial it with a new demo version. Try trialing hardware. Buy the time you’d done the learning curve it would be time to take it back. That’s if it was even feasible to do this.
yes very true you can't demo hardware. if it's second hand though you shouldn't lose any money. if its vintage then you will make money by having one. so yea its just a time thing, the time it takes to get hold of what you *think* you want.

your point about by the time you've done the 'learning curve' it would be time to take it back. yes this would be true, if you're a ******.!

Quote:
3 – No need to learn wires or MIDI or have them hanging everywhere.
learn wires?
learn midi? one end goes in the other out. OH NO! there's a third option THRU! i'll have to get the text books out and study hard for that one.

if you have a serious point to make about 'learning wires' then you MUST be ***EDIT***. you telling me you can't put a jack plug in a socket?

Quote:
4 – Space saving. No need to fill up your room with huge hard synths.
very true

but if you're not making music in your girlfriends bedroom you probably have a dedicated space for this.

Quote:
5 – Electricity saving. Instead of having to turn on and boot up a tone of outboard you just switch on your DAW, DAC and Mons
.

yes you would save a few $ here. very true

Quote:
6 – No need for an expensive mixer or expensive multi in out soundcard as its already in the box.
again very true. if you were all software anyway. no need for this. i mean why would you have a mixer if you've got no hardware to plug into it.

espasially if you're to ***EDIT*** to plug it in. makes me wonder how such a person could grasp the use of a mouse though?


Quote:
7 – Instant recall of all your presets and settings.
yes true.
it takes me a whopping 3 seconds to press patch number 22 on my PRO5.

but seriously yes it is a pain to recreate a whole mix with hardware. first good point i think.

Quote:
8 – Facility to be able to back up the above instant recalls and sets to a disk.
err milking this a little aren’t we? if you couldn't do point 8 then you couldn't do point 7 either.

point 8 is redundant

Quote:
9 – Price. In 1990 as £250,000 is now available on a Mac for well under 5 grand. (and then some)
£250,000 of what?
mixing desk? the same one today second hand? let me educate you: about 20% of its original cost, if that. i had a mixer that was £25,000 in 1995. last year's second hand value was ~£4000 mint.

FX? my yamaha spx1000 was £1,000 new in the 90s, now i cant sell the thing.

I sold my roland R8m for £75, cost me £250 (second hand) 10 years ago.

but yes i get your point: bang for buck new vs new a computer wins

Quote:
Ok, so what does hardware do better?

1 – Cant beat the hands on feel of a dedicated synth with dedicated knobs. How Id wish they would make dedicated controllers for soft synths.
yep.

so you can fill your room up with controllers?


Quote:
2 – Hardware looks way cooler towards other geeks. Face it, no girls are exactly going to swoon over a guy with a large keyboard collection, infact quite the opposite. You may as well mention your into stamp collecting.
Guess im a geek as I think hardware looks superb. My wife and her friends see it all as irritating clutter.
this is a moot point. i see hardware as tools.
you know much women who get turned on by spanners?

i don't want to insult your wife or friends here.
i'll just say they could be a little more supportive?


Quote:
3 – ermm – ok scraping here, sentimental reasons. I grew up in the early 90’s and hardware was a big thing back then. Suppose you’re a product of you environment. This is hardly a plus but I cant think of anything else.
yes why bother saying that

Quote:
4 – Hardware sounds better. Hmmm, not the VA stuff or anything digital anymore. Certainly 10 years ago but now the gap is 1% at best. I will say Analogues still should better, but in my circles music has pushed forward in directions now different to analogue probably because of this. Early 90’s you couldn’t move for the 101 and Juno 106. These days I struggle to find how to older classic stuff these days (I make trance predominantly.)
Give me Predator and a Vangaurd and Ill give you trance. Give me a 60/106 and a 101 that costs twice as much and ill give you something very limited.
this says more about you then hardware.

what sounds better or worse is to some extent subjective, wouldn't you say?

Quote:
To compare with an Andy A6 and a Voyager is more a fair comparison. In this respect I totally agree the hardware sounds better but then again at £5000 for just two instruments it should blow my macbook pro out of the park. It doesn’t. Its 25% better at absolute best. For the 5 grand I have a macbook pro, Focal Twins, Apogee DAC, Room Treatment, Logic Pro, Piano action controller, etc etc. For 25%?
yes bang for buck software wins.

opinion is not fact though. someone could easily say that their Andy is 100% better than a soft synth and they'd be just as right.



Quote:
Summery:-

As much as the above is wrote from a Software lovers point of view I am actually a hardcore synth addict for the days of acid and techno.

Quote:

However the final final final straw came yesterday when I tried to get my JPs filter to be controlled from live. I put 6 hours into this. I gave up. Downloaded a demo of Vangaurd (an low budget soft synth) and within 5 minutes I had it sorted without any manual or socks and shoes off.
funny cause it took me about 5 minutes to build a control panel for my JP8 in cubase. even less to assign my novation nocturn. and even less to move my pitch bend! just assign pitch bend to VCF on the JP and you're done.

you really do sound ***EDIT*** here for not being able to figure out such a simple operation. i'm sure you're not. no offence

Quote:
As such I have to acknowledge my sentimentality is getting isn the way of my productions. I sooooooooooooo don’t want this to be true.
i don't have much sentimentality mine. if they couldn't do the job i wanted, they'd be out and exchanged for something better for me.

Quote:
As such if anyone wants to buy my Ti, 60, JP, MOTU 24, Kenton Pro 2000 give me a shout. I know where im putting my money.
good luck sir! ps what JP?

edit: in short i don't have a problem with music made however you like. i'm half in half otb myself.
my problem is with your argument, which i would describe as ********!
Old 27th March 2010
  #45
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kola View Post
Great Arkon. Then stick with it buddy. But for me its time to move on.

WHatever gets the best end results I say
what do you like better ?

music as an artform is as much a process as it is an end product . if you dont enjoy what your doing what does it matter what the amount of output is?

no one is saying you have to sell all your hardware and go totally software. you can use them sparingly , occasionally and not suffer much of productivity loss if its that important to get a song per minute ratio going.

on the hand if your not enjoying grabbing knobs , crazy piles of cables , keyboards stacked against walls because theres no space then go for it
Old 27th March 2010
  #46
Gear Nut
 

Any good VSTi classical guitars? My real Admira Malaga is getting in the way of my productivity. And it's got a learning curve. It can sound up to 25% worse but I want instant, no learning curve. heh
Old 27th March 2010
  #47
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mike vee's Avatar
pointless post, but the music you reference does really suck.

But a good mix of both is key.
Old 27th March 2010
  #48
Gear Maniac
 

i'd propose everybody relax a bit, hmmm?!

what's wrong when somebody chooses an approach he likes? why do others feel immediately like they have to attack him and let him know how wrong and far away he is from the "one, only, proven, universal thruth"?!

i'm glad that not everybody uses the same tools... so everybody comes up with different results in the end. is that sooo bad?
Old 27th March 2010
  #49
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metrosonus's Avatar
 

without rehashing subjective arguments.. the reason I dont use software (except for Live) is I find it to be too passive of an experience.

When I use my hardware, I feel it's an active experience in that I use my brain more to spatially map out the inner workings of the synth and how to get there through the menu. It's an active experience that leads me to think more and sometimes make mistakes that leads me to learn and experiment more. It's a positive feedback loop.

Software on the other hand, I can't barely hardly make it past the presets because I get too bored with the point, click, point click..

For some rebuttal..

  • I"m happily married.
  • I have three synths that were payed in full years ago.
  • They don't leave my 3 tier stand, so they stay hooked up with no issues.
  • They are on a power conditioner, so it's instant on and instant off for all of them at the same time.
Old 27th March 2010
  #50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kola View Post
He thinks VA synths like the Ti and the JP sound different to any VST and openly preaches this crap.
I'm into both hardware and software, digital and analog. Don't get me wrong, I love Reaktor and I don't think I could ever go without it but I've yet to hear a soft synth with the same presence and mystique as the TI. The analog stuff I own obviously is different and I almost sold the TI just because I was trying to focus more on productions than messing about with various hardware. I just couldn't find a soft synth that was as inspiring as the Virus so I kept it. It's my only digital hardware synth (aside from my Gamboy with Nanoloop).
Old 27th March 2010
  #51
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Entrainer's Avatar
 

Hey. Good for you, Kola. Do whatever makes
you happy and productive.

I know many artists who have albums out and
play festivals, and those artists were 90-100%
ITB.

I grew up hardware, went mostly soft for a few
years, now I'm back to mostly hardware.

I like drum programming in the computer, using
samples.

In fact, my computer is now one big sampler/
recorder. There's some great huge libraries of
samples that just wouldn't be possible in hardware.

Nothing in the computer sounds as good as the hardware
I've chosen...

but-

I would encourage you to look into (if you haven't
already) several programs.

Nebula (EQs)
Guru (Drums)
U-He ACE
Omnisphere
UAD Card (Fatso, Massive Passive, RE-201, 33609,
EMT250)
SoundToys Native Bundle

I would also encourage to dedicate your computer
to recording and producing, using another computer
to do anything else.

Don't demo, borrow, steal a bunch of plugins and
have a computer filled with crap. I know people
who've done this and they are very unproductive.

The productive producers I know who work ITB have
a very limited range of the best tools. Everything
else is clutter and gets deleted.

Best of luck-
Old 27th March 2010
  #52
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PeteJames's Avatar
Why not just enjoy both? No one has to polarize on the issues. It's not a case of seeing the light or denying the existence of the light. Sometimes I like a plug, sometimes I like a good hardware synth. We all know what's better about hardware and we all know what is better about software. It's so obvious why even debate it? Do what you like & don't forget to enjoy yourself.
Old 27th March 2010
  #53
Gear Guru
 
Yoozer's Avatar
Going soft? I heard they have pills for that nowadays What did the missus say?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kola View Post
I can honestly not believe tyler.

He thinks VA synths like the Ti and the JP sound different to any VST and openly preaches this crap.
I think my Virus (C) sounds different from the VSTs I have - but that's because the algorithms used in the VST and the Virus aren't the same. That's a perfectly valid statement to make.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kilon View Post
When someone looks at a hardware va and says "it nothing more than a software in a box" they are like children looking at the sun and saying "look mom a ball of fire" .
And that'd be correct. The Sun is not much more remarkable than any other star in the universe; it's that ball of iron and water with an atmosphere orbiting at the right distance that is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetty View Post
Now you're not only doing the same as everyone else, it will also sound like everything else.
You have a rather peculiar ideas about the gear making you a special snowflake. By your logic, all acid sounds exactly like everyone else's - after all, didn't everyone use a 303 and 909?

Almost all electronic musical gear comes off an assembly line. If you want an unique piece, you'll probably have to go modular. If you depend on an unique piece or an unique configuration to set you apart from the rest, you're irrelevant the moment someone does the same.
Old 27th March 2010
  #54
Gear Nut
 

people are so messed up in this forum sometimes..LMAO to the OP, i applaud you for even posting that on a more hardware oriented forum.

I love hardware, but Im a huge advocate of Soft Synths, Its a massively endless palette of synthesis.

I think within the past year or two the advances of the "sound" from software have greatly increased to a very nice purist approved level and worth checking out by all the non believers.

Softsynths is where it's at for almost anything. I do have a TI that I enjoy programing very much and a LP with some foogers for a little true analog flavor, but honestly I get so much business done with plug ins that it's almost pointless to have the hardware. I just enjoy having my virus front and center as my controller so I can easily assign controllers to my VSTis and automate multiple parameters in realtime and having at least one good external synth is not a bad thing when you want nice bread and butter sounds that you can quickly program. Ill never sell my TI unless its a replacement from Access. Best damn thing I ever owned.

Im probably going to sell off whatever I have except the virus as I'm trying to get more minimal, and get an Ipad with TouchOSC for some multitouch controller goodness and I'm going to stick to that. Make your main DAW as a recording editing station with some softsynths and having a second computer to call up VSTis that have libraries is a good idea to keep things flowing and not running into many RAM issues.

GL

Old 27th March 2010
  #55
Lives for gear
 

Ehh, I've got a Virus and its a great synth to work with day to day but comparible softsynths like Zeta+ and Albino sound alot better to me. Its not even close either in case you were wondering. Virus has very weak sounding oscillators, a filter that doesn't distort gracefully, a unison mode that is not so much unison as it is a progressively stacked chorus effect, distortion curves which suck and to make it sound big, angry and scary you need to trick the fukk out of it and pile on the effects. And I say this as a person that really likes the Virus...
Old 27th March 2010
  #56
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hogberto's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteJames View Post
Why not just enjoy both? No one has to polarize on the issues. It's not a case of seeing the light or denying the existence of the light. Sometimes I like a plug, sometimes I like a good hardware synth. We all know what's better about hardware and we all know what is better about software. It's so obvious why even debate it? Do what you like & don't forget to enjoy yourself.
what he said. thumbsup
Old 27th March 2010
  #57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robobaby View Post
Ehh, I've got a Virus and its a great synth to work with day to day but comparible softsynths like Zeta+ and Albino sound alot better to me. Its not even close either in case you were wondering. Virus has very weak sounding oscillators, a filter that doesn't distort gracefully, a unison mode that is not so much unison as it is a progressively stacked chorus effect, distortion curves which suck and to make it sound big, angry and scary you need to trick the fukk out of it and pile on the effects. And I say this as a person that really likes the Virus...
Do you have a TI? If so, are you running OS 4? I think the stock distortions on the TI are quite adequate if not exceptional. The new distortion models in OS 4 are hellaciously wicked and practically turn the TI into another machine.
Old 27th March 2010
  #58
Lives for gear
i just don't get inspired by soft synths and i get bored quickly.

a question to the OP

how can you get better results with software when hardware is 25% better?
Old 27th March 2010
  #59
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kola View Post
Off-topic:

Quote:
“Usually we start by listening to other records. There’s a few records around at any given time that have this hype around them, so all the producers listen to these records. A little while ago you had Deadmau5, with his sound, then you had people copying Deadmau5. We were listening to Deadmau5 as well, so our sound was a little influenced by that. And you can clearly feel the whole dance community shifting in response to the best new records.

“I’m a trance DJ, that’s what people know me for, but I try to follow the trends as well. The bpm over the last couple of years went down, for example, and productions have a lot of influences from minimal and electro percussion right now. If we’re making a track or a remix, we listen to the current sound a lot. You have to go on iTunes and listen to a lot of other records. That’s really, really essential. You’re not copying them, you’re being inspired by them. The Beatles listened to Bob Dylan — it’s that kind of thing. You kind of go with the flow. DJs won’t play your record if it doesn’t sound enough like the other records, because they’re building a set and they’ve got to rock the crowd. So no matter how many hours of production you put into it, if it doesn’t sound a little like the previous record or the record after it, then it’s not going to fit, and they’re not going to play it because it’ll make their set sound really weird. So doing research is extremely important.”
Jesus tap-dancing Christ! This is where things have gone wrong.
Old 27th March 2010
  #60
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by plaid_emu View Post
Do you have a TI? If so, are you running OS 4? I think the stock distortions on the TI are quite adequate if not exceptional. The new distortion models in OS 4 are hellaciously wicked and practically turn the TI into another machine.
Using the old distortion. Nice to hear they beefed up the distortion curves since the old ones all sound terrible.

The stock oscillators are still weak as hell though. I still remember comparing them unfiltered to softsynths like Zeta+, ImpOSCar, Albino etc. Have you ever tried comparing ImpOSCar's square to a Virus square? I always find myself gravitating away from the analogue modelled waveforms on the Virus anyway. Its way more interesting when you mix wavetables for really alien sounds that you can't do as well with Zeta+ or Albino. But for bread and butter analogue modelling theres a tonne of synths I'd rather use than a Virus and alot of them are cheap and come in VST format.
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