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Going soft??????? Yep, finally seen the light. yippeeeeee! Keyboard Synthesizers
Old 1st May 2012
  #391
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I think your making the right decision. NOne of the gear you have will be sorely missed.

Ive gone the other route but I did it in a way so that its not so black and white. I wanted to make sure I can do a full tune using hardware if I wanted or software and I also wanted to be able to integrate both systems during the writing of a tune whether I started it in the computer or hardware. So far Ive been quite successful with this approach but I WONT deny all those cables, the extra space needed, the general mess is an issue and theres all sorts of things I needed to get I did didnt think of before such as midi merge boxes which are not cheap. But if you cornered me and said pick one system as your life depends on it I would have to go with in the box

Ann in a funny way this hybrid system I now have has made me appreciate my ITB system. I cant quite put my finger on it but I seem to get better stuff out of it now. Perhaps its a combination of the two or the thinking that if I cant get what I want from X plugin I will get it from X Hardware. I no longer think if only I had some hardware this wouldnt be a problem to do. On the other hand some of the hardware, especially the voyager shoved through a lot of FX is something I just cant get from a plugin. Even my little monotribe and Doepfer see a lot of action as well as the MPC4000, and I just picked up an S760 simply becasue I know its filters are excellent...way better thna the akais.

Last edited by spaceacademy; 1st May 2012 at 05:14 PM.. Reason: addition
Old 1st May 2012
  #392
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Septik's Avatar
I am also a hardware synth freak (I have spent easily 1 year's full salary on synths over the past few years) but as far as music goes, I am definitely an advocate that hardware and software should be used together. However, a point that I would bring up would be this: A track produced with all hardware does not sound mechanical or lifeless. A track made with all software can easily sound this way. A track produced with software to which analog sounds are then added can be brought to life. So a middle ground should be reached, I agree, but 100% software will not have the life that a mixture will have.

There are some things that my softsynths will do that my current hardware synths (Arp 2600, Moog Prodigy, Kawai SX240, Yamaha AN1x, Alesis Ion, Korg MS2000, Esq1) just will NOT do. I use these synths to bring life to the mix. I use softsynths to produce crazy automated sounds with intense parameter adjustments which I would not have the same control over through hardware (of course I could adjust some parameters through MIDI automation, but a lot of softsynths have engines which are built to be automated.) However, a track entirely composed of these kinds of sounds and then cheesy Vanguard/Predator patches (hate these synthes, but they were referenced by the OP) would sound dull and lifeless in my eyes. Plug in an Arp & SX240 for some fun bleepy sequences, then get the Moog in there for a hard lead, and the AN1x for some progressive patches and you have some LIFE, along with the ridiculous patches you have made with your software.

Balance ~;]
Old 1st May 2012
  #393
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didn't read any responses, just the op, here is how i feel, some of the argument you present is warranted but there is a lot that is really just subjective i feel and some that just plain doesn't make much sense in my mind as a con against it:

1 – Face it, I love instant. Instant instant instant. What I cannot stand is learning curves. Each hardware synth requires a learning curve where if your all in the box you learn the DAW what you have to learn anyhow for the hardware and that’s it. You’re done. The technology never gets in the way.

instant is nice, some synths do that and some do not. software has learning curves too, not all hardware has a steep learning curve, when i look at a roland juno 60 simplicity comes right to mind. computers are not perfect and can have issues causing the technology to get in the way, they can crash and do require maintenance, if we are talking about learning curves we should bring that up as well, most musicians aren't the best i.t. personnel. hmmm i've had the roland mc 202 for 7 years and it still works a treat, gone through 3 computers and a 2 main daw softwares, hmmmm

2 – Interested in a new plug in? Well trial it with a new demo version. Try trialing hardware. Buy the time you’d done the learning curve it would be time to take it back. That’s if it was even feasible to do this.

not everyone has great music stores within reach, youtube demos only convey so much and the audio is always suspect, this is a great feature of software. let's talk about biting on it though and then trying to sell it, that may not work out so well while i am sure i'd get much more for the roland juno 60 if i sold it now as opposed to the $200 i bought it for, tit for tat

3 – No need to learn wires or MIDI or have them hanging everywhere.

i am noticing a trend of wanting to avoid learning and learning curves with you, some folks like learning. wires can be a pain in the ass, but it does the job and really is a trivial thing to learn

4 – Space saving. No need to fill up your room with huge hard synths.

i just relocated everything after losing my man cave, it is in a shed in the back and it's so darn tight in there i can't really do jack right now, yes with just a laptop it's a non issue, if one has space though then it's not a big deal really is it?

5 – Electricity saving. Instead of having to turn on and boot up a tone of outboard you just switch on your DAW, DAC and Mons.

all my gear together draws about as much power as a mac pro working it's butt off, at least that's what the kill-a-watt and the display on the ups device tells me. it's not hard to click an on switch either imho, maybe for some folks that could be difficult, i dunno'...

6 – No need for an expensive mixer or expensive multi in out soundcard as its already in the box.

don't forget the midi interface too! i record outboard samples through a mic sometimes, i play bass as well and have recorded that, even without any drum machines, samplers, or synths, it still benefits a lot of musicians and producers to haver at least something of higher quality than the built in line input or mic that is on most computers. i guess if you never sample or record a voice ever then this is a non issue

7 – Instant recall of all your presets and settings.

you said that in point #1, most modern hardware is able to save presets and settings, sure some is not and i can see how that would dissuade anyone that does not care to learn or tackle a learning curve head on, for those that do care to learn it shouldn't be too difficult to reconstruct the sound very quickly, unless you're using modulars haha, in that case take a picture imho

8 – Facility to be able to back up the above instant recalls and sets to a disk.

a lot of hardware lets you do this too, sysex dumps for more modern gear, old gear you would dump to tape or an audio file nowadays, not all though of course. my 20+ year mpc 60 lets me backup everything to discs, the juno 60 you can backup to a wav file, of course this might involve learning again so i can see how that could dissuade some folks

9 – Price. In 1990 as £250,000 is now available on a Mac for well under 5 grand. (and then some)

how often do you upgrade your computer, how often are you buying new plugs and software versions, how does it work out when you sell this stuff 2, 5, 10 years later? it's a continual upgrade cycle, is it really a good investment that you feel gives you the return that you should get? this right here is one of the biggest pushes for me to invest more and more into hardware and less and less into software based tools...maybe you are into upgrading often and like that though
Old 1st May 2012
  #394
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Funk Fiction's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuonacc View Post
essential for what?
sorry i don't elaborate as much when replying from my phone.

essential for the hands on fun in the music making process. for more sound presence and character in the objective sense of simply having a dac saturates the sound. essential for truly funkY music . and yess essential for GS cred lol yoozer.
Old 1st May 2012
  #395
Gear Nut
 

Trance eh..... I guess kids and ******s like music too
Old 1st May 2012
  #396
oil
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sinelanguage View Post
I've been wanting to weigh in on the ITB vs OTB ; software vs hardware issue for quite some time. I can only speak for my own experiences so this is all IMHO. #1 make no mistake, well designed, great sounding hardware, is fun and inspirational and tactile. But that includes everything from my aging and fragile conditioned Pro One to my ESX, to my Evolver Desktop, to Maschine. It all sounds amazing and is fun and inspirational to get involved with and therefore I produce great tracks. But there's another side to this reality show and it is, that I work full time, I commute 3 hours to work by train, and the fact that I can curl up in a corner of the train, and open an ARP 2600, a Jupiter 8, an ARP Odyssey, bring in all my drums from Maschine, plus a TR909, 808, 303, 606, I have my choices of 2 ARP 2600's when I can't even afford 1 real one, and surround them all with Ableton Live and make music while the time goes by, where ever I happen to be as soon as inspiration strikes, or just for the fun of sound designing and loop making, is an incredible feeling and experience. Is it the same as working in the studio from a sound and fun standpoint? Can it be compared? No; But does that mean during the week while I'm commuting and working full time that I shouldn't enjoy incredible software emulations of my favourite synths and hardware just because they sound different? Will my music suck? Again the answer is no. Does ITB sound like analog? Not to my ears it doesn't, but does ITB softsynths and hardware emulations sound like complete **** and therefore should be ignored and not embraces because its different than hardware? Again, to me, no! I love ITB, I love what it represents in my musical life and creativity. All it took is for me to spend some time in the studio, read up on how to get the best sounding mix from ITB, (which I learned in this forum). I'm not going to say, I learned how to make a softsynth sound analog, unless that particular track called for it. What I learned is, how ITB treats sound by principle, and with the advancements in programming and processors, my Waves API, SSL, My softTube TubeTechs, my Nomad Pultecs, gives me access to great emulations of hardware I would never be able to afford OTB, and they sound musical and great. Do they sound like their analog counterpart? Yes they sound LIKE it, does it sound identicle NO! So to me, its like this. ITB, OTB, hardware, software, in my humble opinion, who cares, if you love synthesizers, then theres room in your heart to love the Arturia Jupiter 8 for example and admire what Arturia did with emulation and modelling and even interface design, because when you're not in the studio, you can still get your synth fix wherever you are. And once that line is blurred for you, you'll be able to make great music with whatever is in front of you, hardware, software, live, logic, whatever. Instead of complaining of what the ITB counterparts don't have, embrace what they do have. As I sit here typing this I"m just as anxious and excited to get on the train and open the TimeWARP 2600 to work on the patch I was playing with earlier, as I am to get home and work with my hardware. Sorry for the ramble, thanks for reading. Cheers
who wrote that?
Old 1st May 2012
  #397
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natefrogg's Avatar
 

@eric j - why did you delete that? i finally got back to a computer and was about to respond =\ ...the crux after reading what you wrote is that i feel i failed in getting my point(s) across if it was being taken the way it appears you took it

oh well, internet miscommunication, such is life on the web!

i love music, i use computers and hardware, i just don't spend as much dosh into computers, i don't care about investing but it sure is nice to get at least the same amount you paid into it when you decide you aren't using that piece as much as you should and it's time to change things up!

oh well, c'est la vie, had i noticed right off the bat how old the thread was in the first place maybe i wouldn't even have responded

use the tools that suit you best, make sounds, imho =) i hope it is working out exceptionally well for the op
Old 1st May 2012
  #398
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Eric J's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by natefrogg View Post
@eric j - why did you delete that? i finally got back to a computer and was about to respond =\ ...the crux after reading what you wrote is that i feel i failed in getting my point(s) across if it was being taken the way it appears you took it

oh well, internet miscommunication, such is life on the web!

i love music, i use computers and hardware, i just don't spend as much dosh into computers, i don't care about investing but it sure is nice to get at least the same amount you paid into it when you decide you aren't using that piece as much as you should and it's time to change things up!

oh well, c'est la vie, had i noticed right off the bat how old the thread was in the first place maybe i wouldn't even have responded

use the tools that suit you best, make sounds, imho =) i hope it is working out exceptionally well for the op
Didn't care anymore. Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics and, well you know the rest...
Old 1st May 2012
  #399
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natefrogg's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric J View Post
Didn't care anymore. Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics and, well you know the rest...
you already typed the whole thing up though

ah well, i wasn't trying to argue at all but i did totally get that tone when i read your reply, lol it made me think that i must have just sounded like an arguing complainer, oh wells

i thought it was a neat discussion even if op did kind of seem like a troll the way he was coming off

lol yours is still in the cache on my phone
Old 2nd May 2012
  #400
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Looneytune's Avatar
 

I wish more people would do this so the price of Vintage gear reduces.
More gear for me
Old 2nd May 2012
  #401
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Looneytune's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ged View Post
I went the other way round...

been using vst synths since 2000 - loved the instant recall - preset saving etc...
then I kept wondering why they sounded so thin compared to the recordings and artists i was listening to - I didn't believe "Hardware sounded better", I loved the vst's
then you add in the compatibility issues - crashes in certain DAW's - bug's etc...

The last year or so I tried simply creating some good patches that would work in a mix on various vst's - some were ok but in general - they lacked presence/width

Then I stumbled across a wee interview with Stuart Price (remixer of various pseudonyms ) and all he used was a Casio CZ 101 and a Yamaha TX7, and I heard a few of his tracks and I was like..."wow"

So, then I bought myself a Korg Poly 800 / Korg DW 6000 and the DW 8000
needless to say I have not touched a soft synth since!! except the Ensoniq SQ8L for digital Basses
I very rarely have to EQ them - they don't need any special processing to "warm" them up - and they won't Crash my DAW! heh heh
Ahhh don't tell him that...
We need more of these guys dude, lol
Let him sell it all!!
Old 2nd May 2012
  #402
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ionian's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottdavidson View Post

when your ex8000 can make these sounds please let me know

I can dig those sounds, but to me they're mostly unmusical. I make my living as a musician so anything I want, I can play. I use sounds that can be played. The sounds in that youtube link sound much more geared to people who love to hold down one key and let the synth do the heavy lifting. Interesting stuff, but it doesn't fit my style at all.

Regards,
Frank
Old 2nd May 2012
  #403
Gear Addict
 
Funk Fiction's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Looneytune View Post
I wish more people would do this so the price of Vintage gear reduces.
More gear for me
haha good point. yeah.
Old 2nd May 2012
  #404
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jbuonacc's Avatar
Frank, that doesn't make sense at all. they're pad sounds, not self-evolving soundscapes. then again, i don't see why the EX-8000 couldn't do something similar (if not more complex), due to its waveform selection and multi-stage envelopes.
Old 2nd May 2012
  #405
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djalexg View Post
Trance eh..... I guess kids and ******s like music too
Woah man, no need for racism.
Old 2nd May 2012
  #406
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ionian's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuonacc View Post
Frank, that doesn't make sense at all. they're pad sounds, not self-evolving soundscapes. then again, i don't see why the EX-8000 couldn't do something similar (if not more complex), due to its waveform selection and multi-stage envelopes.

Very true. I'm sure the Ex8000 can do similar sounds. I just meant that don't tend to lean on long, evolving pad sounds because I like to play so I tend to stick with more synthy pianos, short brassy pads for hits, etc. I rarely need a long evolving pad in what I like to do. But the Ex8000 is capable of a great many interesting things.

Regards,
Frank
Old 2nd May 2012
  #407
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GeorgeHayduke's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by scottdavidson View Post
.. DIVA video
I'd love to hear it without the massive verb, that would probably giver a truer representation of it's tone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ausgeno View Post
Woah man, no need for racism.
LOLs for lame forum humor
Old 2nd May 2012
  #408
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Quote:
I can dig those sounds, but to me they're mostly unmusical. I make my living as a musician so anything I want, I can play. I use sounds that can be played. The sounds in that youtube link sound much more geared to people who love to hold down one key and let the synth do the heavy lifting. Interesting stuff, but it doesn't fit my style at all.

This is where our opinions diverge completely, i think these are highly musical.Lots of working musicians in fields of dance music,ambient music, filmscore,game soundtracks,art installation and a variety of other mediums use similar sounds.

The idea that you can hold down one finger etc is a fallacy,pretty much all the sounds on this video is someone playing chords as an illustrative example of the pads that can be achieved using this soundset.

Like ive already said if anyone feels that they could convincingly replicate these sounds using an ex8000 ,by all means post em up, i'd love to hear them.

Dont get me wrong, ive nothing against the ew8000, as a previous owner of one i think its a fine synth, but the notion that having one of those negates the use of some of the finer new generation of software synths simply stretches my credulity a little thin.

I could post examples of alchemy,aalto,omnisphere ,reaktor and others doing stuff the ex8000 simply cannot ,but i think you get my point.
Old 2nd May 2012
  #409
Gear Guru
 
Yoozer's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeHayduke View Post
I'd love to hear it without the massive verb, that would probably giver a truer representation of it's tone.
Or you could download the demo version and not suffer Youtube compression
Old 2nd May 2012
  #410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoozer View Post
Or you could download the demo version and not suffer Youtube compression
Isn't the 1.1 Beta a public one?

KVR: Diva 1.1 RC2 (Rev 665)

People saying hardware is better because it's more hands on are talking about specific synths or have no control surfaces, this is a pretty piss weak argument if you have to prop it up with stuff like that. Blimey, just get a BCR 2000 or a SL zero, they cost next to nothing.

Besides, who retunes their piano during a performance? Most traditional instruments have very few 'performance' knobs/sliders and they seem to do ok...
Old 2nd May 2012
  #411
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GeorgeHayduke's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoozer View Post
Or you could download the demo version and not suffer Youtube compression
I could do that yes, to be fair. I'm just so non-interested even if it tricked me once.

Quote:
Originally Posted by offki View Post
..Blimey, just get a BCR 2000 or a SL zero, they cost next to nothing.
...
Hardly the same thing.
Old 2nd May 2012
  #412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeHayduke View Post


Hardly the same thing.
Why? Please elaborate.
Old 2nd May 2012
  #413
Gear Guru
 
zerocrossing's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ionian View Post
I can dig those sounds, but to me they're mostly unmusical. I make my living as a musician so anything I want, I can play. I use sounds that can be played. The sounds in that youtube link sound much more geared to people who love to hold down one key and let the synth do the heavy lifting. Interesting stuff, but it doesn't fit my style at all.

Regards,
Frank
It would be unfair to judge Diva by this preset bank. While it can do sounds like this, (I'm confused as to how the pitchshifting is happening... and intrigued!) it's also awesome for bread and butter synth sounds.

I know what you mean about these types of sounds though. I call them "synth seller" sounds. Ones that make you go, "COOL!" in a shop (or when you spark up a demo) but then quickly never get used again... or I should probably say, "Rarely" for me as I do sometimes create a patch like this and use some sort of controller to mess with it as a backing for ambient tracks. Oddly, for me this seems to happen with guitars and effects more than with a synth though. Not sure why. But I digress...

So for me DiVA isn't meant to replace any hardware. The first thing I thought when I demoed it for the public beta was, "Well, my analogs aren't going anywhere." After I got that out of my system I started playing with it and realized it's a quite a mutherfker.

So I don't really understand the need for humans to make big declarations on the internet... it's as if they're trying to convince themselves of something that they don't believe in. I went all software for a very specific reason. I was losing my studio space to gear up for a move. There was never any, "I've had it with this gear!" moment. In fact, it scared the hell out of me and it took a long time for me to warm up to the idea.

Long story short, after the dust settled I ended up not losing my studio. Instead I just got a smaller one. Slowly over the last 5 years I've looked back and started piecing together a hardware collection. I'm about done and I'm pretty happy with my studio's current state. I use the type of tool that I'm in the mood to use or that makes the most sense at any given moment. If I had to go ITB again, I wouldn't freak out, but hardware, especially decent analog hardware, has a little bit of ooomph to it that's not found in software and I'm glad I have the means to enjoy that. It doesn't make my music any better or worse though. And the idea that ITB will sound stiff and lifeless compared to a hardware track is ridiculous. It's a poor craftsman who blames his tools.
Old 2nd May 2012
  #414
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GeorgeHayduke's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by offki View Post
Why? Please elaborate.
Hehe, why not

A few things come to my mind:

- Having to program before use
- No labels
- Only does stuff with MIDI-parameters
- Poor resolution
- Made by Behringer
- Flimsy feeling knobs as opposed to on a good synth
- Doesn't look as neat
- Isn't as neat, eg needs cables/power
- Less feeling of playing an integrated instrument

I'm sure there's more..
Old 2nd May 2012
  #415
Gear Guru
 
zerocrossing's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeHayduke View Post
I could do that yes, to be fair. I'm just so non-interested even if it tricked me once.


Hardly the same thing.
I think this more comes down to how you enjoy interaction with your instrument. For me I could care less if a synth has knobs if it has a good software editor. I also never touch a knob during performance anyway. That's not my style, but it's not an invalid technique.

It's not that open and shut either. My Nord Lead 2x has an awesome UI that's mostly a joy to use. My (now gone) Virus C was a bit of a mess to use with all the menu diving and crappy display. Going with the TI concept was probably a very good thing for them, but it was too late for me. I just don't like that Virus sound enough to pay that they ask for those instruments.

I also don't understand people who swear by their Microns either. Crappy UI plus they're easily trumped by most soft synths equals... not interested. SQ80 seems the same to me. No longer worth the space they take up, imo.
Old 2nd May 2012
  #416
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Quote:
- Having to program before use (Ok, fair enough, all it takes is 10 minutes tops though)
- No labels (Sl Zero has a digital readout, old model had two, touch sensitive)
- Only does stuff with MIDI-parameters (Not sure what you mean here)
- Poor resolution (Automap can provide any resolution you set, amazing for blind eq'ing/dynamics)
- Made by Behringer (Ok, I'll give you that, for £90 though..)
- Flimsy feeling knobs as opposed to on a good synth (not all hardware synths have nice knobs)
- Doesn't look as neat (Pfftt, girl :P)
- Isn't as neat (See above, one sl zero is a lot neater than 6 keyboard synths and all their wires..)
- Less feeling of playing an integrated instrument (It's in your mind, as you well know a lot of older hardware units didn't have aftertouch or weren't weighted)
There are a lot of cheaper hardware units that have very few knobs, blofeld, mopho etc, it's all swings and roundabouts really. Another point is if one of the pads on your Tempest dies, it's going to be a lot more hassle to fix than taking your MPD back to wherever you bough it.

Anyway, my general point was that aesthetics and controls were not really the strongest argument for hardware vs software, thanks for arguing your point properly though.

Also, I'm not arguing that software is better than hardware, in the case of samples I would say so, but the rest, depends. Ultimately it's going to come down what you learnt on or what you feel best suits the way you work, which probably explains why I like sitting on the fence taking pot shots at either side.
Old 2nd May 2012
  #417
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GeorgeHayduke's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing View Post
..It doesn't make my music any better or worse though. .. It's a poor craftsman who blames his tools.
It's interesting to hear about your experience, and I understand you totally when you say that you do still prefer the analog character.

I just have to say (again, lol) that I think the relation between instrument and the final mix does exist, even if neglible in many circumstances.
Speaking for myself: First off, as a musician, I need to have the 'it feels alive'-thing going. Probably old guitar-thing. And what is more, the 'better' instruments/efx I get, the more I'm compelled to simplify and focus my arrangement, and my mixing and even playing. I mentally treat each instrument as a 'voice', and the better voices are simply more capable of standing on their own, in the mix, and thus I am able and compelled to let them do that. My mixing is simply bolder now, I can 'trust' each voice, and feel freer to experiment. I guess you could say it's mainly psychological, and perhaps individual, but it's based on actual euphonic differences between sound characters.
And, I swear to God, the people do notice. They can't put words to it, but they feel, too.
Old 21st May 2012
  #418
What always strikes me so much in these arguments/discussions/exhortations is the lack of goal oriented analysis. There are simply some electronic sounds and functions that hardware cannot do or, more accurately, does not do because to build that kind of functionality into a hardware synth would not be cost effective.

Hardware synths should be mostly the province of analogue. This is where hardware excels and has something to offer software does not. Software synths, on the other hand, are capable of extreme sound enhancements, morphing, layering, complex evolutions etc. This is where hardware is not as good.

Different music calls for different functionality in the instruments. So, as always pointed out, "Trance" (whatever that actually means and I suspect it is different things to different people) requires interesting sounds that have movement unto themselves such as sound development and evolution.

On the other hand, if you are playing with a great ensemble you want instruments and sounds that are responsive in a player/keyboard way similar to what the analogue synths do and they sound great doing it.

So why compare the two. Its as if people don't appreciate how lucky they are to even have the choice and such wonderful and varied means for creating music. We live in a great time. Love it.
Old 21st May 2012
  #419
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pointsource's Avatar
 

After getting hardware gear, I must say the difference is remarkable.

I usually compose the tracks using only soft synths, and later on, when It's complete, I start replacing everything using the analog synth. It's night and day, the elements recorded with analog gear really cut thru the mix, whereas the digital stuff gets muffled/mudded.
Old 21st May 2012
  #420
I use both

Cant say that i prefer one over the other...everything adds a different flavour

I feel the hardware synths are future proof, and im growing a little tired of having to replace my rig every few years to keep up with cpu demands, but soundwise? Cant say i prefer one over the other...softsynths nowadays are very, very, good, in fact they are making the budget synth redundant

I imagine theyll only get better

Better budget for a new rig soon

Lol
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