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Going soft??????? Yep, finally seen the light. yippeeeeee! Keyboard Synthesizers
Old 22nd June 2010
  #301
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kilon's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Halo View Post


Maybe this is a misunderstanding and/or language thing, but where would ANY instrument be without the musician playing it?

How can a tool be more important than the person using it?

How can a tool even be more important the the task it was designed to perform?

It can be because it took take decades to envolve through trail and error, passed through the hands of many manufactures which corrected it , shaped , mold it, loved it . It is a product of many poeple's efforts , while a person playing an instrument , is just a person playing an instrument and nothing more.

So I think that proves that a tool of such value is alway more important than the artist .

How a tool can be more importan that the task it was designed to perfrom ? I think that is an irrelevan question, its not designed to be more important than the task , its designed to perfrom the task in the best way possible. So I fail to see the relevance of this question.


Quote:
A guitar is a guitar, but put that guitar in Eddie Van Halen's hands and it transforms. Take that same guitar and put it in MY hands... heh
The fact that you can make guitar sound like a drowning cat is your problem, not guitar's problem.

He have to make a super clear distiction petween a artist potential and a tool's potential. The fact that you can make a guitar sound bad, is your potential with a guitar, guitar potential on the other hand is huge too huge even for a extremely talented person like Van Halen to eploit .

Why ?

Again I return to the same statement, Mr Hallen is one person, a guitar is a tool shaped through decades , by artists and manufactures. Designed to fit many diffirent need that expand way beyond even MR Hallen's immense talent/skill.

Quote:
And as for the "tool" inventing whole new genres, again, isn't it the musician behind it who sees new potential? The person who uses something ordinary in an extraordinary way?
Not really , most genres required minimul artistic to be invented, look at heavy metal or hard rock, its basically a guitar with a distortion. Without those artist heavy metal will stil existed , because anyone could think to put a guitar through a distortion, but without electric guitar, nope , there would have been no heavy metal, hard rock or any relevant genre.

It would not sound as great though, because as I said before the tool potential is not enougth , it needs a artist with great potential behind it. But that alone does not void the potential and the importance of the tool.

Quote:
Take the TB303 as another example, it was designed to be a bass accompany box... it took a PERSON to see it's real potential
This true, and that is why a person behind a tool, can make a great diffirenc, because he can think, a tool cannot. One can say that this alone makes a tool less importan than the artist. But I disagree, intelligence is great, its the same intelligence that the manufacturer of the instrument used to make its instrument charm crowds but it can nver be more important than collective effort.


Quote:
Again, I say all this in the spirit of good conversation and allowing for misunderstanding... or perhaps we just don't agree, which is ok too.

-Andrews
We are two people making a civilised discussion, with no moral obligation to aggree . I see nothing wrong with what you are saying or how you say it. I just disagree.
Old 22nd June 2010
  #302
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crufty's Avatar
it is the combination of men and women* that make family...so it is the combination of musician and instrument that makes music. in such a relationship equality is assured, as each believes they are the superior puzzle piece.

re otb mixing...i would be interested to hear from people who were itb went otb then said 'you know what i can do that easier/better itb'.

my experimenting attempt...
Crufty - Electronic - Experiment - Wide Test : crufty : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

part of what i feel to be wideness of my otb efforts is the fact that i am bussing mono tracks to two stereo groups, which are then panned, and this does something to the sound. why? i had no idea they were stereo busses but when i do same itb it does not sound identical either. i never understood 3d until i got a half way decent mixer...


*pc police feel free to subst for partners of choice
Old 23rd June 2010
  #303
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Dirty Halo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kilon View Post
We are two people making a civilised discussion, with no moral obligation to aggree . I see nothing wrong with what you are saying or how you say it. I just disagree.
I respect that, thank you. Yes, we disagree. thanks for still having a good conversation about it.

IMO, any instrument is just a tool and that tool is nothing but wood or electronics until someone makes it sing and that is where the soul lives.

But, we disagree and I do see where you are coming from.

I wish more of us around here could have these kind of discussions, thank you for talking.

Cheers,

Andrews
Old 23rd June 2010
  #304
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Tarkovsky's Avatar
 

Kilon... have you read any marx? Might interest you.
Old 23rd June 2010
  #305
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murphythecat87's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kilon View Post
It can be because it took take decades to envolve through trail and error, passed through the hands of many manufactures which corrected it , shaped , mold it, loved it . It is a product of many poeple's efforts , while a person playing an instrument , is just a person playing an instrument and nothing more.

So I think that proves that a tool of such value is alway more important than the artist .

How a tool can be more importan that the task it was designed to perfrom ? I think that is an irrelevan question, its not designed to be more important than the task , its designed to perfrom the task in the best way possible. So I fail to see the relevance of this question.


The fact that you can make guitar sound like a drowning cat is your problem, not guitar's problem.

He have to make a super clear distiction petween a artist potential and a tool's potential. The fact that you can make a guitar sound bad, is your potential with a guitar, guitar potential on the other hand is huge too huge even for a extremely talented person like Van Halen to eploit .

Why ?

Again I return to the same statement, Mr Hallen is one person, a guitar is a tool shaped through decades , by artists and manufactures. Designed to fit many diffirent need that expand way beyond even MR Hallen's immense talent/skill.

Not really , most genres required minimul artistic to be invented, look at heavy metal or hard rock, its basically a guitar with a distortion. Without those artist heavy metal will stil existed , because anyone could think to put a guitar through a distortion, but without electric guitar, nope , there would have been no heavy metal, hard rock or any relevant genre.

It would not sound as great though, because as I said before the tool potential is not enougth , it needs a artist with great potential behind it. But that alone does not void the potential and the importance of the tool.



This true, and that is why a person behind a tool, can make a great diffirenc, because he can think, a tool cannot. One can say that this alone makes a tool less importan than the artist. But I disagree, intelligence is great, its the same intelligence that the manufacturer of the instrument used to make its instrument charm crowds but it can nver be more important than collective effort.


We are two people making a civilised discussion, with no moral obligation to aggree . I see nothing wrong with what you are saying or how you say it. I just disagree.
You say partially right and not so right arguments, but I kind of agree with you.


If it wasnt of electric guitar, rock wouldnt have existed.
Take off the synthesizer, electronica would not exist.
You need tools up to a certain point, but takes a artist to use creativly those tools.

the musician need the tools, yes but how can a musician be less important than the tool? and what does it change anyway to know whats more important? Yes, it needed a "inventor" of the electric guitar, but it's zappa that maked that tool sounds great, without the artist, the tools have no purpose.

The musician needs the tools, just like the tools needs the musician.
Old 23rd June 2010
  #306
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kilon's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarkovsky View Post
Kilon... have you read any marx? Might interest you.
I have done some Marx as well as some Freud as part for my preparation for my studies in UK.

Both have said some great truths, but I have found their views abit "too focused" for my taste. But I did enjoyed studing both greatly, I understood why their theories were so fundemental to future progress in their fields and generally I agree to many of the stuff they both have said.
Old 23rd June 2010
  #307
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kilon's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by murphythecat87 View Post
Yes, it needed a "inventor" of the electric guitar, but it's zappa that maked that tool sounds great, without the artist, the tools have no purpose.

The musician needs the tools, just like the tools needs the musician.
The reason why I feel a tool is more important from the artist, is that for example I could live without Jean Michele Jarre , or Vangelis or other major electronic composers that have deeply moved me.

But if no synthesizers existed I would have missed one of the greatest pleasures of life. IT only takes a look around to see that society is deeply based on tools, the very means you use right now to communicate with me is probably the most successful tool invented by man.

How can I prove that a tool is more important than its user ? Well I cannot, as one cannot prove that user in more important than the tool. One might say that a tool is useless without its users but a task as well migh never be accomplished without the right tools.

One the other hand tools need knowledge and koledge is a product of human experience. Afterall many of the manufactures of synthesizers are composers themselves and they build their tools based on the personal need of composers. So its impossible to take the human out of the equation.

Hwowever my backbone of my philosophy is this. You can accomplish the task even partially with the right tools, your skill will determing how much of the task at hand you will be able to accomplish. Without the right tools, however you might be a genious, but the task will no be completed if the right tool are required.

A practical example is the musician who wants to compose classical music but cannot afford an orchestra, without the rompler that composer will never exploit his talent and maybe never come famous or known about his music.

Yannis is an example of this, he started with romplers that did not even sound like classical instrumenst and envolved into a orchestral genious , the tools definetely helped him rise and played a fundemental role in his carrier. The very music we here nowdays from kids with almost no money whatsoever would be impossible without software cracked or freeware.

That Is what I think, and does not necessary mean its the right thing. Just personal opinion.
Old 23rd June 2010
  #308
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Spectral Climax's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Halo View Post

IMO, any instrument is just a tool and that tool is nothing but wood or electronics until someone makes it sing and that is where the soul lives.
I think i agree with you, because someone can make great music even with a toy piano, a whistle and two chopsticks. I mean it doesn't have to be objectively "a music tool" to inspire someone to make great music. Take for example musique concrete movement...they were shaping existing sounds into compositions...there weren't so many important tools at that era (except tape recorders of course).

Maybe Kilon is referring to the technology inside specific "tools". From that side, i understand why a specific tool is so important...because it's a product of continuous development throughout the years and it has a specific meaning for its creators and the musicians who use it, but, there are possible tools for music that are not so technologically advanced...remember of John Cage, he used rubbers and screws to "modulate" the sound of a piano...it was a great idea but not because of the rubbers or the piano...and yes i believe the same for his infamous 4':33''...


How did we get here? It was supposed to be another software vs hardware happy thread... :D
Old 23rd June 2010
  #309
Gear Head
 

I've been wanting to weigh in on the ITB vs OTB ; software vs hardware issue for quite some time. I can only speak for my own experiences so this is all IMHO. #1 make no mistake, well designed, great sounding hardware, is fun and inspirational and tactile. But that includes everything from my aging and fragile conditioned Pro One to my ESX, to my Evolver Desktop, to Maschine. It all sounds amazing and is fun and inspirational to get involved with and therefore I produce great tracks. But there's another side to this reality show and it is, that I work full time, I commute 3 hours to work by train, and the fact that I can curl up in a corner of the train, and open an ARP 2600, a Jupiter 8, an ARP Odyssey, bring in all my drums from Maschine, plus a TR909, 808, 303, 606, I have my choices of 2 ARP 2600's when I can't even afford 1 real one, and surround them all with Ableton Live and make music while the time goes by, where ever I happen to be as soon as inspiration strikes, or just for the fun of sound designing and loop making, is an incredible feeling and experience. Is it the same as working in the studio from a sound and fun standpoint? Can it be compared? No; But does that mean during the week while I'm commuting and working full time that I shouldn't enjoy incredible software emulations of my favourite synths and hardware just because they sound different? Will my music suck? Again the answer is no. Does ITB sound like analog? Not to my ears it doesn't, but does ITB softsynths and hardware emulations sound like complete **** and therefore should be ignored and not embraces because its different than hardware? Again, to me, no! I love ITB, I love what it represents in my musical life and creativity. All it took is for me to spend some time in the studio, read up on how to get the best sounding mix from ITB, (which I learned in this forum). I'm not going to say, I learned how to make a softsynth sound analog, unless that particular track called for it. What I learned is, how ITB treats sound by principle, and with the advancements in programming and processors, my Waves API, SSL, My softTube TubeTechs, my Nomad Pultecs, gives me access to great emulations of hardware I would never be able to afford OTB, and they sound musical and great. Do they sound like their analog counterpart? Yes they sound LIKE it, does it sound identicle NO! So to me, its like this. ITB, OTB, hardware, software, in my humble opinion, who cares, if you love synthesizers, then theres room in your heart to love the Arturia Jupiter 8 for example and admire what Arturia did with emulation and modelling and even interface design, because when you're not in the studio, you can still get your synth fix wherever you are. And once that line is blurred for you, you'll be able to make great music with whatever is in front of you, hardware, software, live, logic, whatever. Instead of complaining of what the ITB counterparts don't have, embrace what they do have. As I sit here typing this I"m just as anxious and excited to get on the train and open the TimeWARP 2600 to work on the patch I was playing with earlier, as I am to get home and work with my hardware. Sorry for the ramble, thanks for reading. Cheers
Old 23rd June 2010
  #310
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Holy paragraphs batman
Old 23rd June 2010
  #311
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Dirty Halo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robobaby View Post
Holy paragraphs batman
Was just about to write the same thing! heh

Interesting, I bet there are some great thoughts in there, but I'll sheephishly admit, that see of characters is too much! Lame, I know

-a
Old 24th June 2010
  #312
Lives for gear
 

double post

Last edited by supersuper; 24th June 2010 at 01:35 AM.. Reason: double post
Old 24th June 2010
  #313
Lives for gear
 

Wow it is interesting to see where this thread has gone. . .

To the original poster: grats on your decision.

To the detractors: have fun with your "investments" and all the up keep.
Old 24th June 2010
  #314
Gear Head
 

I'm sorry Mr Kotter. Is this better?

I've been wanting to weigh in on the ITB vs OTB ; software vs hardware issue for quite some time. I can only speak for my own experiences so this is all IMHO. #1 make no mistake, well designed, great sounding hardware, is fun and inspirational and tactile. But that includes everything from my aging and fragile conditioned Pro One to my ESX, to my Evolver Desktop, to Maschine. It all sounds amazing and is fun and inspirational to get involved with and therefore I produce great tracks.

However there's another side to this reality show and it is, that I work full time, I commute 3 hours to work by train, and the fact that I can curl up in a corner of the train, and open an ARP 2600, a Jupiter 8, an ARP Odyssey, bring in all my drums from Maschine, plus a TR909, 808, 303, 606, I have my choices of 2 ARP 2600's when I can't even afford 1 real one, and surround them all with Ableton Live and make music while the time goes by, where ever I happen to be as soon as inspiration strikes, or just for the fun of sound designing and loop making, is an incredible feeling and experience.

Is it the same as working in the studio from a sound and fun standpoint? Can it be compared? No; But does that mean during the week while I'm commuting and working full time that I shouldn't enjoy incredible software emulations of my favourite synths and hardware just because they sound different? Will my music suck? Again the answer is no.

Does ITB sound like analog? Not to my ears it doesn't, but does ITB softsynths and hardware emulations sound like complete **** and therefore should be ignored and not embraces because its different than hardware? Again, to me, no! I love ITB, I love what it represents in my musical life and creativity. All it took is for me to spend some time in the studio, read up on how to get the best sounding mix from ITB, (which I learned in this forum). I'm not going to say, I take the time to make a softsynth sound analog, unless that particular track called for it. What I learned is, how ITB treats sound by principle, and with the advancements in programming and processors, my Waves API, SSL, My softTube TubeTechs, my Nomad Pultecs, gives me access to great emulations of hardware I would never be able to afford OTB, and they sound musical and great.

Do they sound like their analog counterpart? Yes they sound LIKE it, does it sound identacle NO! So to me, its like this. ITB, OTB, hardware, software, in my humble opinion, who cares, if you love synthesizers, then theres room in your heart to love the Arturia Jupiter 8 for example and admire what Arturia did with emulation and modelling and even interface design, because when you're not in the studio, you can still get your synth fix wherever you are. And once that line is blurred for you, you'll be able to make great music with whatever is in front of you, hardware, software, live, logic, whatever. Instead of complaining of what the ITB counterparts don't have, embrace what they do have.

As I sit here typing this I"m just as anxious and excited to get on the train and open the TimeWARP 2600 to work on the patch I was playing with earlier, as I am to get home and work with my hardware. Sorry for the ramble, thanks for reading. Cheers
Old 24th June 2010
  #315
Gear Guru
 
zerocrossing's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kola View Post
ha, sarcasum.

Do you really think because I have a 60, a Ti and a JP I sound any different to people mixing in the box??

Really???
I never understood this argument. Silly. It's like saying the Byrds sounded like the Beatles because they use Rickenbacker guitars. There are so many factors that make you sound like "you" and it all has to do with the artist and very little to do with gear, hard or soft.

I went from an analog synth in the 80s (I could only afford one) to a digital synth in the 90s (not for the sound, I needed a workstation) to VA hardware in the '00s and finally software starting about 5 years ago. It's only been a short time since I've gone back and added a few analogs to my rig. Here's my findings...

There's no sonic reason to own a hardware VA. Sorry Nord, Virus and Ion users. Software is every bit as good and has all the benefits the OP mentioned. Of course, there's the interface. I don't mind working on the computer, I'm used to it. People who say they feel like sitting in front of the computer drains their creativity confuse me. To me, the computer really opens things up in every way, but that's personal preference.

Analog synths have something that hasn't been replicated in software. This isn't me saying they're better, but they can be for some things. That said, I lost a "guess the analog" test with OP-x v an Obx. Might have been rigged though, as the developer was the guy who posted the examples. Also, considering I chose wrong in every case, I heard a difference, but I chose the one I liked better. That cost me $99. Here's the rub: after having it for a while, it's not even nearly the most analog sounding soft synth I own, and I have quite a few.

But then I play a few notes on my DSI's or my Studio Electronics ATC-1 and I'm sorry, I melt. They produce a sound... I don't care if you say it's 1% better or 25% better, the fact is what ever the difference is, it means worlds to me and I'm glad to have discovered these instruments and happy to have the funds to own a few.

Sorry Kola, I don't get your statements on "learning curve" as I find analog hardware a lot easier to learn as usually it's much simpler and more limited. The problem you had is with your DAW anyway, not the synth. It is true that trying to get your DAW to control hardware can be like pulling teeth at a street carnival, so I get that.

To me, the answer is hybrid. I don't see why it's so important to take a side. The answer is in the middle.
Old 24th June 2010
  #316
Gear Guru
 
Yoozer's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by sinelanguage View Post
I'm sorry Mr Kotter. Is this better?
A lot, thanks!

Quote:
As I sit here typing this I"m just as anxious and excited to get on the train and open the TimeWARP 2600 to work on the patch I was playing with earlier, as I am to get home and work with my hardware. Sorry for the ramble, thanks for reading. Cheers
I hope you have a good insurance for your laptop; losing the dongle in some crowded station would be a disaster.
Old 24th June 2010
  #317
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoozer View Post
A lot, thanks!


I hope you have a good insurance for your laptop; losing the dongle in some crowded station would be a disaster.
a serious question though, if your old classic synth is insured and stops working through normal use, what happens ??
Old 24th June 2010
  #318
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crufty's Avatar
i listen to this and well...

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/5526271-post98.html

*shrug*
Old 24th June 2010
  #319
Lives for gear
 
The Architecture's Avatar
Architecture - Disconnected From Reality master - SoundCloud

This is what i do with my analog setup. No computers were used in the recording of this tune. Straight to tape.
Old 24th June 2010
  #320
Gear Guru
 
zerocrossing's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Solaris View Post
You don't go much through a "learning curve" each time you sit in a new car.


You either: I) know how to program a synth or; II) not.
Not entirely true. I could not for the life of me figure out how to pop the trunk in the rental car I had last weekend. Really annoying.
Old 24th June 2010
  #321
Gear Guru
 
zerocrossing's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kola View Post
1 - If I was trolling why would I have listed all my kit on EBay this dinner time?? Sort of backs up that im serious.
My guess is you'll miss the Juno, but not the rest. I'd old off on selling that one until you see how you feel after 6 months.
Old 24th June 2010
  #322
Gear Guru
 
zerocrossing's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JEBEQ View Post
I have friends that work out of the box and all I can say is Presets, Presets, Presets and no originality
I think this is a fallacy of the dance music world that interesting sounds equal good music. I'd rather hear a tune made totally of factory presets that's played with soul and is interesting musically than a lot of the ear candy filled snooze fests most dance tunes are.

The other funny thing is that a lot of the people who cry in defense of making your own presets make presets that sound pretty much like most of the factory presets you hear anyway.
Old 25th June 2010
  #323
Gear Guru
 
zerocrossing's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoozer View Post
Well - part of the aura and juju is that there's simply no way whatsoever to kid yourself into thinking that you're playing a synthesizer when you're looking at the screen.
I hear this a lot, but it's funny, I'm never looking at the screen even when I'm using software. I'm looking at the same midi controller I'm using when I'm controlling my hardware. Programming is a different matter and frankly I'm looking at software a lot of the time when I program that as well. (Soundtower) I've heard this mentioned a lot, but I never quite get it. I guess that's because I don't own an old analog keyboard.
Old 25th June 2010
  #324
Gear Guru
 
zerocrossing's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by plaid_emu View Post
I generally buy new. I've lost quite a bit of cash over the years but it doesn't depress me all that much. I've learned what works for me and what doesn't.

I just consider the lost money an "extended rental fee". The only gear I never lost money on resale was an SH-32. Isn't that crazy? I paid $250 for it and it sold for the exact same price on Ebay. I never would've thought...
You know, it's funny, I did too. Twice. I got it for $250 when they were discontinued. I really liked it. I had a hanker'n to rebuy it, so I did a week ago. Sold it on Craig's list for the same price I paid a week later. It's a cool little box but it was really clear to me after a week that there was nothing it did better than software.
Old 25th June 2010
  #325
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pinkerton's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by in a blue field View Post
i suggest you read the Reason ITB OTB Mixes thread (arguably the single greatest source of accurate information on the internet for anyone who is trying to not record like a jackass)
got a link?

i tried searching but i couldnt find it.
Old 25th June 2010
  #327
Lives for gear
 
pinkerton's Avatar
 

101 pages. here we go.

correction, 120 pages
Old 25th June 2010
  #328
Lives for gear
 
jbuonacc's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architecture View Post
Architecture - Disconnected From Reality master - SoundCloud

This is what i do with my analog setup. No computers were used in the recording of this tune. Straight to tape.
i guess i'll say it again - who cares? this track could easily be duplicated completely ITB and nobody would be able to tell the difference.

nice little tune though!
Old 25th June 2010
  #329
Gear Guru
 
Yoozer's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattyc View Post
a serious question though, if your old classic synth is insured and stops working through normal use, what happens ??
You get to pay through the nose for a tech. Insurance only works for theft or fire damages or something. It's still fixable however; the older the synth, the easier.

Losing a dongle might get you a "haha, yeah, I'm sure you 'lost' it, you dirty pirate."

(which is why I support companies that use serial numbers/online activation for plugins)
Old 25th June 2010
  #330
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoozer View Post
You get to pay through the nose for a tech. Insurance only works for theft or fire damages or something. It's still fixable however; the older the synth, the easier.

Losing a dongle might get you a "haha, yeah, I'm sure you 'lost' it, you dirty pirate."

(which is why I support companies that use serial numbers/online activation for plugins)
yeah thats what i thought. i have a mix of serials, ilok, software and hardware....so im going to get screwed by something eventually !! heh
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