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Add artificial sub low end plugin suggestion?
Old 26th January 2010
  #1
Gear Addict
 

Add artificial sub low end plugin suggestion?

I am looking for a plugin which can add extra sub low end frequencies to sound files. reFuse Software's Lowender seems good and $50 is not bad.

reFuse Software: Lowender

Is there any other plugin does the same thing? By the way, I use Mac AU.

Thanks!
Old 26th January 2010
  #2
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Simonator's Avatar
 

Logic's 'sub bass'
PSP MixBass
BBE Harmonic Maximizer
Old 26th January 2010 | Show parent
  #3
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can probably achieve this with Crysonic Nxtasy too... though it's not specifically intended for sub.
Old 26th January 2010 | Show parent
  #4
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RBass from the antichr... ahem, Waves.
Old 29th January 2010 | Show parent
  #5
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leigh's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kasprouch View Post
RBass from the antichr... ahem, Waves.
I would like to clarify this comparison:

Lowender is a different effect altogether than Waves Rbass / MaxxBass. MaxxBass generates additional harmonics in the lower-midrange, to give the impression of louder bass (e.g. on small TV speakers not capable of low frequency reproduction). Lowender generates new subharmonics an octave down from the original signal, to actually generate deeper bass frequencies.

In this sense, Lowender and Rbass are opposites. Lowender is creating new frequencies lower than the existing ones, whereas Rbass creates new frequencies higher than the existing ones.

Note that I'm lumping RBass and MaxxBass together because, according to the Waves website, Rbass is just a simplied version of MaxBass: "Renaissance Bass delivers Waves patented MaxxBass® psycho-acoustic technology using simplified controls for quick, intuitive operation." (see: Waves | Plug-ins | Renaissance Bass )

Since that explanation doesn't tell you much, here is the MaxBass page: Waves | Plug-ins | MaxxBass

And the screenshot on that page actually provides a clear picture of which frequencies it is affecting. You see the original bass frequency range in blue, and the added lower-mids in yellow:



The Lowender, in contrast, takes bass frequencies from about 50 - 110 Hz (when set in "Classic" mode), and creates new subharmonics of that range, about 25 - 55 Hz. I should draw up a graph that illustrates this for the reFuse Software site...

cheers,
Leigh
Old 29th January 2010 | Show parent
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simonator View Post
Logic's 'sub bass'
PSP MixBass
BBE Harmonic Maximizer
Not meaning to make this thread entirely about Lowender, but that's what the original poster asked about, so I would like to clarify how these three plug-ins differ from Lowender as well. Of these three, it looks like only the PSP MixBass might actually process audio for subharmonic generation.

Logic's SubBass - The manual says "Unlike a pitch shifter, the waveform of the signal generated by the SubBass is not based on the waveform of the input signal, but is sinusoidal (it uses a sine wave)." So it seems to be generating a sine with an oscillator, tracking the incoming signal to get the pitch of that sine wave.

PSP MixBass - Says it "features a unique low-frequency compression algorithm and low frequency harmonics generator." Not sure if they mean it's generating sub-harmonics, or upper harmonics of the existing bass signal. This could be figured out with some simple testing.

EDIT: The following description of the BBE H82 Harmonic Maximizer plug-in is incorrect, as it was actually (mistakenly) pulled from the manual for the BBE Sonic Maximizer plug-in:

BBE Harmonic Maximizer - The manual states (emphasis mine): "D82 Sonic Maximizer does not generate new harmonic material, as many other types of audio enhancers do. Rather, it corrects the phase shift and distortion that happens naturally when the sound is reproduced by the speakers. Because the BBE process is unique, you can use the plugin with other sonic enhancer products you may have."

Thanks for listening,
Leigh

Last edited by leigh; 30th January 2010 at 06:04 AM.. Reason: I confused two different plug-ins, the BBE Harmonic Maximizer with the BBE Sonic Maximizer.
Old 29th January 2010 | Show parent
  #7
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interesting stuff... i'd love to try it out on kicks then, as RBass does end up sounding a bit flabby (not really useful compared to a bit of EQ). On Toms and Bass i havent heard anything better so far in terms of insta-results.

a side by side comparison of Lowender vs MixBass & RBass could be the ticket here.
Old 29th January 2010 | Show parent
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh View Post
Not meaning to make this thread entirely about Lowender, but that's what the original poster asked about, so I would like to clarify how these three plug-ins differ from Lowender as well. Of these three, it looks like only the PSP MixBass might actually process audio for subharmonic generation.

Logic's SubBass - The manual says "Unlike a pitch shifter, the waveform of the signal generated by the SubBass is not based on the waveform of the input signal, but is sinusoidal (it uses a sine wave)." So it seems to be generating a sine with an oscillator, tracking the incoming signal to get the pitch of that sine wave.

PSP MixBass - Says it "features a unique low-frequency compression algorithm and low frequency harmonics generator." Not sure if they mean it's generating sub-harmonics, or upper harmonics of the existing bass signal. This could be figured out with some simple testing.

BBE Harmonic Maximizer - The manual states (emphasis mine): "D82 Sonic Maximizer does not generate new harmonic material, as many other types of audio enhancers do. Rather, it corrects the phase shift and distortion that happens naturally when the sound is reproduced by the speakers. Because the BBE process is unique, you can use the plugin with other sonic enhancer products you may have."

Thanks for listening,
Leigh
Hey,

I think you seem to be getting confused... I'm not talking about the Sonic Maximizer, I am (as stated) talking about the BBE Harmonic Maximizer:
Nomad Factory - Leader In Tube Emulation Plug-Ins
from that site- 'adds Deeper and Extended Low Frequencies'

I think all three of those plugs I originally posted can be used for the same purpose as the ReFuse Lowender.

;-)
Old 29th January 2010 | Show parent
  #9
cubase has Octaver i'm sure logic will have the same thing no?

or you could go for a pitch shift plugin (a harmonizer would do this) and just pitch down an octave and filter off everything above 50
Old 29th January 2010 | Show parent
  #10
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leigh's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by simonator View Post
I think you seem to be getting confused... I'm not talking about the Sonic Maximizer, I am (as stated) talking about the BBE Harmonic Maximizer:
Nomad Factory - Leader In Tube Emulation Plug-Ins
from that site- 'adds Deeper and Extended Low Frequencies'

I think all three of those plugs I originally posted can be used for the same purpose as the ReFuse Lowender.

;-)
Yes, my mistake. I didn't realize there were two different products, and when I Googled "BBE Harmonic Maximizer", the first link that came up on the BBE site was to the PDF manual of the Sonic Maxmizer instead of the Harmonic Maximzer. So I was reading the Sonic manual instead of the Harmonic manual, without realizing the switcheroo.

I'll take a look at the correct product info later when I'm back in the office, and edit my previous posting then as well.

Leigh
Old 29th January 2010 | Show parent
  #11
Gear Nut
 

FWIW, I've been a happy lowender customer since it was pluggo. Very happy, use it a lot. Like what it does. I have MixBass too. I like that as well, but I can get much bigger sounds out of lowender.
Old 29th January 2010 | Show parent
  #12
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I've used camelphat in small amounts. I'm not entirely convinced but's its added some sub.

Honestly I think most sub plugins are a load of crap. Most of the time you just end up with low end rumble, no punch. It's just easier to use better samples and better synth sets.
Old 29th January 2010 | Show parent
  #13
Gear Addict
Possible with Microtonic too ;-)
Old 30th January 2010 | Show parent
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarkovsky View Post
I've used camelphat in small amounts. I'm not entirely convinced but's its added some sub.

Honestly I think most sub plugins are a load of crap. Most of the time you just end up with low end rumble, no punch. It's just easier to use better samples and better synth sets.
+1

Fully agree with this sentiment.
Old 30th January 2010 | Show parent
  #15
yeah I dont really trust those low enhance plugins.

sub low end plugin - low shelf EQ...along with the right sample...
Old 30th January 2010 | Show parent
  #16
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good octavers are awesome,
bad octavers are dissapointing.

i like to use octavers with some synth patches, it works like a sub osc.

there are free octavers like MDA plugins
there are analog hardware like dbx 120xp, furman, etc..
and digital versions like dbx 120a inside driverack pa

the analog is awesome if used with caution.
too much octavers can make woofers reach Xmax too easy.

for pc, ik multimedia amplitube ampex, has diferent octavers, some sound amazing some sound dissapointing.

other guitar emulators also have octavers, waves grt3, etc...
Old 30th January 2010 | Show parent
  #17
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This may sound a little patronising, and especially coming from someone who isn't a professional, but a lot of the art of getting a good low end is from
a) Finding sounds that mix well and produce the sonic impact you require
b) Mixing those sounds well, in terms of arrangement, eq, compression, delay etc

{c) good mastering}

Effectively what I'm saying is that you'll develop an ear for those sounds and how they fit together the more music you make.

Would you mind telling us a bit about what style, what sounds etc?

Cheers

Zak
Old 30th January 2010 | Show parent
  #18
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imho the main problem with this ^ is that you overlook a very handy creative tool - run a nice fat tom sample through Rbass and you can write some seriously deep & smooth basslines as a result. here i'm talking about finding that great sample and enhancing it even further - why would you not want to use something like that in your productions? doesnt always work, but when it does it sounds extremely good.

quick disclaimer though, under no circumstances do i believe or claim that rbass should be the one to go for - its the only one ive used extensively, so keep mentioning it because of that.
Old 30th January 2010 | Show parent
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kasprouch View Post
imho the main problem with this ^ is that you overlook a very handy creative tool - run a nice fat tom sample through Rbass and you can write some seriously deep & smooth basslines as a result. here i'm talking about finding that great sample and enhancing it even further - why would you not want to use something like that in your productions? doesnt always work, but when it does it sounds extremely good.

quick disclaimer though, under no circumstances do i believe or claim that rbass should be the one to go for - its the only one ive used extensively, so keep mentioning it because of that.
I full appreciate this, but this is part of the process of experimentation. Most of the time running a sample through one of these effects produces a load of unmixable, undefined mush.
Old 30th January 2010 | Show parent
  #20
Gear Addict
 

Thanks! All the info is very helpful. I will do some research and make decision this week.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarkovsky View Post
Th

Would you mind telling us a bit about what style, what sounds etc?

Cheers

Zak

Regarding the music I do, I am a composer. Though I write wide range styles of music, I am mainly interested in contemporary music (classical) and electro-acoustic music. These are probably minorities in GS. But I also record my own works, so I visit GS for fun, especially for finding new creative tools.

Here are 2 recording sections' videos I just uploaded to my YouTube channel yesterday. The player is really good btw.

- For Moods for Solo Cello (please select 720p on the right corner on YouTube's video CP for better sound quality!):
YouTube - Virtuoso Cellist, Jan Müller-Szeraws: 4 Moods for Solo Cello, 3rd Movement, by Chao-Jan Chang
YouTube - Virtuoso : 4 Moods for Solo Cello, 1st Movement, by Chao-Jan Chang (Cellist: Jan Müller-Szeraws)

Of course, this kind of works doesn't need sub-harmonics plug-ins, but my electro-acoustic works may benefit from these creative tools. For example, here is a electro-acoustic piano piece:

- Meditation in the Dark [2'22"]
Track #5. Meditation in the Dark

I am working on an abstract collection of piano pieces for my next CD. Here is one piece's demo. I may try sub-harmonics plug-ins for few notes. Though I am not sure it will work or not, until I use it......

- Chinese Calligraphy Master [3'03"]
Chinese Calligraphy Master


Cheers,

Chao
Old 30th January 2010 | Show parent
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarkovsky View Post
Most of the time running a sample through one of these effects produces a load of unmixable, undefined mush.
its true, doesnt always work out - agreed 100%. it can make stuff sound horribly flabby and unusable.
Old 30th January 2010 | Show parent
  #22
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Tarkovsky's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chao View Post
Thanks! All the info is very helpful. I will do some research and make decision this week.






Regarding the music I do, I am a composer. Though I write wide range styles of music, I am mainly interested in contemporary music (classical) and electro-acoustic music. These are probably minorities in GS. But I also record my own works, so I visit GS for fun, especially for finding new creative tools.

Here are 2 recording sections' videos I just uploaded to my YouTube channel yesterday. The player is really good btw.

- For Moods for Solo Cello (please select 720p on the right corner on YouTube's video CP for better sound quality!):
YouTube - Virtuoso Cellist, Jan Müller-Szeraws: 4 Moods for Solo Cello, 3rd Movement, by Chao-Jan Chang
YouTube - Virtuoso : 4 Moods for Solo Cello, 1st Movement, by Chao-Jan Chang (Cellist: Jan Müller-Szeraws)

Of course, this kind of works doesn't need sub-harmonics plug-ins, but my electro-acoustic works may benefit from these creative tools. For example, here is a electro-acoustic piano piece:

- Meditation in the Dark [2'22"]
Track #5. Meditation in the Dark

I am working on an abstract collection of piano pieces for my next CD. Here is one piece's demo. I may try sub-harmonics plug-ins for few notes. Though I am not sure it will work or not, until I use it......

- Chinese Calligraphy Master [3'03"]
Chinese Calligraphy Master


Cheers,

Chao
Interesting.

Have you though about using a vst or the like to synthesise sub bass beneath? It's a bit less point and click but it has it's merit.
Old 30th January 2010 | Show parent
  #23
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leigh's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by simonator View Post
I think you seem to be getting confused... I'm not talking about the Sonic Maximizer, I am (as stated) talking about the BBE Harmonic Maximizer:
Nomad Factory - Leader In Tube Emulation Plug-Ins
from that site- 'adds Deeper and Extended Low Frequencies'

I think all three of those plugs I originally posted can be used for the same purpose as the ReFuse Lowender.
Hey simonator,

I have corrected my post above now, to reflect that I was mistakenly talking about a different plug-in.

That said, I have just tried out the demo for the BBE H82 Harmonic Maximizer (the blue one), and I can say with certainty that it does NOT create the "extra sub low end frequencies" that the original poster was asking about.

The test: set up a channel in a DAW with a sine wave generator running at 125 Hz. Look at this test tone with a spectrum analyzer plug-in of your choosing (I'm running the free FreqAnalyst from Blue Cat). You'll see the clear sine wave peak on your spectrum analyzer's graph. Now add the Harmonic Maximizer in the chain, right after the sine wave generator. Dial in the plug-in's "Lo Tune" knob, and bring the "Lo Mix" knob to about halfway.

Looking at the spectrum analyzer, there's still just one frequency peak. If the effect was adding new sub bass frequencies, you'd see a second peak showing up at a lower frequency.

Here are the screenshots from the spectrum analyzer to illustrate the differences:



Hope that clarifies my point.

cheers,
Leigh

Last edited by leigh; 30th January 2010 at 07:13 PM.. Reason: arg, again, wrote "sonic" when I meant "harmonic"
Old 30th January 2010 | Show parent
  #24
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Silver Sonya's Avatar
 

Go with Lowender and don't give it a further thought.

Seriously.

- c
Old 30th January 2010 | Show parent
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh View Post
I have just tried out the demo for the BBE H82 Sonic Maximizer.
Hi Leigh.

Some confusion here... again you state 'Sonic Maximizer'... but I strongly suspect this is just a typo, and you are now talking about the Harmonic Maximizer?

I understand the test you have conducted here, however, I feel that it is unfair to the BBE software based on the way that plug-in operates;
With the Harmonic Maximizer, you can specify the exact frequency you want to enhance (eg, if your song was in the key of E, you might want to pick 41.2 Hz.)... But I think that the Harmonic Maximizer needs to have SOME content there to begin with (as opposed to using an oscillator to synthesize entirely new waves.). In a real world situation, it would almost always be the case that there would be some harmonic information there to act on... your test with a pure sine wave (by definition with NO harmonics beyond it's own frequency.) is just about the only situation where this is not the case.
A typical example of where you might use these type of plug-ins would be on something like a drum loop or a bass part, that already has some bass, but you just want to add more weight... in this situation the Harmonic Maximizer would have SOME deep harmonics to get it's teeth into and do it's thing.

I do not know what settings you had dialed into the Harmonic Maximizer when you conducted your test, but I just repeated the same test, and got exactly the same result... until I set the 'Lo Tune' frequency to 120 Hz (the ONLY place in the entire spectrum with any information for this plug to act on.), and then 'boom' it came to life;



No it is not adding a new frequency below 120 Hz like the low-ender does... that is not the way it is designed to work.
But in a real world situation (lets assume a kick drum centered on 120Hz) it would be able to create a very similar effect to what the Low-ender did in your experiment... boosting subs at whatever frequency you have specified.

Do you work for ReFuse Software?

I have to say that the Low-Ender does look fantastic, and I am going to check it out. I'm not in any way trying to take away from the Low Ender... but the OP was just asking if there are any other tools that achieve the same effect (okay... technically, he actually asked for things that 'do the same thing'... but I think that whilst these plugs use different techniques, their end result is comparable.)... so to answer his question, I'm just giving him options to consider.

I have used this Harmonic Maximizer sometimes where I've wanted to add more weight to the sub bass region of a track, and I can say that it works VERY well.

I have in the past also used Logic's Sub Bass to achieve a similar goal. Although that is now a bit 'long in the tooth' & perhaps not so sophisticated as the other tools discussed here, perhaps people trying to do this type of thing by spending as little money as possible might have overlooked that they already had a tool like this in their DAW's arsenal.

Saying all this though, the ReFuse Low-Ender looks GREAT, and could very well be the best purchase option for the OP.
Old 30th January 2010 | Show parent
  #26
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leigh's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by simonator View Post
Some confusion here... again you state 'Sonic Maximizer'... but I strongly suspect this is just a typo, and you are now talking about the Harmonic Maximizer?
Yes, again, my mistake - a result of typing up that post after dinner at the end of a long day... but as you say, a mistake only as far as being a typo. I was definitely testing out the Harmonic Maximizer (the blue plug-in of that suite of 3 plug-ins), and my post refers to its "Lo Tune" and "Lo Mix" controls.

Quote:
Originally Posted by simonator View Post
Do you work for ReFuse Software?
Yes, I do, and I designed the Lowender. I used to have reFuse Software info in my sig, but got rid of it because there were plenty of things I wanted to comment on that had no relation to that. When signing off on a post where it's relevant, I often add the company info below my name, but didn't do that in this thread. I meant no deception, though, just figured that most people here already know I work for reFuse, or could easily find it by looking at other threads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by simonator View Post
I understand the test you have conducted here, however, I feel that it is unfair to the BBE software based on the way that plug-in operates;
My test was to discover if the BBE Harmonic Maximizer was going to create new sub frequencies. On that count, I think it was accurate and fair, and the answer is no, it does not create new sub frequencies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by simonator View Post
With the Harmonic Maximizer, you can specify the exact frequency you want to enhance (eg, if your song was in the key of E, you might want to pick 41.2 Hz.)... But I think that the Harmonic Maximizer needs to have SOME content there to begin with (as opposed to using an oscillator to synthesize entirely new waves.).
In other words, it behaves like an EQ would. If a certain frequency already exists, it can BOOST it. But it cannot CREATE frequencies that aren't there already. (Not entirely accurate - as we'll see below with the exciter section, but I'm talking about creating SUB frequencies that don't already exist.)

I certainly don't think testing gear with sine waves is the be-all end-all answer to anything. However, the fact that a sine has no harmonics is useful when you want to see if an effect is adding any other harmonics, no?

Quote:
Originally Posted by simonator View Post
I do not know what settings you had dialed into the Harmonic Maximizer when you conducted your test, but I just repeated the same test, and got exactly the same result... until I set the 'Lo Tune' frequency to 120 Hz (the ONLY place in the entire spectrum with any information for this plug to act on.), and then 'boom' it came to life;
I dialed the Harmonic Maximizer into 120 Hz as well, the frequency of the test tone. I had the "Lo Mix" knob halfway up (correction: I had it at 4.0), and the results are what you see in my screenshot. If I continued to turn the "Lo Mix" knob up further, I got those upper harmonics that are in your screenshot. I suspect the difference is that I was running my sine wave at -12dB, and perhaps you were running your test tone hotter than that? The result being that you would hit that threshold for the "exciter" part of the effect with the "Lo Mix" knob at a lower setting.

In any case, even once that threshold for the Harmonic Maximizer's exciter is hit, and it starts distorting and creating those upper harmonics, it is still not creating lower SUB frequencies. And, again, that's what the OP was asking for, something to "add extra sub low end frequencies".

I hope it doesn't seem that I'm personally picking on you here, simonator, by being so exacting in my responses. My goal is to illustrate what Lowender does that is special, and different from these other plug-ins. It does rankle me a little bit when people list a bunch of "bass enhancement" plug-ins (to use a wide, catch-all term, that would encompass Lowender and all these others), and then go on to claim that they're all the same, or at least equivalent. Some of these other effects, like Waves' RBass/MaxxBass plug-ins, are even (as I pointed out above) doing the opposite of what Lowender does - and yet, this is certainly not the first time I've seen them called equivalents.

As for Logic's SubBass, I've been curious to run some tests with that for a while. When I get a chance, I'll report back here about it. From the Logic documentation (which I quoted from above), it sounds like it's pitch tracking the input, and using that to control a sine wave oscillator that adds in some sub frequencies. Testing will hopefully clarify this.

cheers,
Leigh

reFuse Software

Last edited by leigh; 30th January 2010 at 10:03 PM.. Reason: corrected setting of "Lo Mix" knob in my test
Old 30th January 2010 | Show parent
  #27
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leigh's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh View Post
PSP MixBass - Says it "features a unique low-frequency compression algorithm and low frequency harmonics generator." Not sure if they mean it's generating sub-harmonics, or upper harmonics of the existing bass signal. This could be figured out with some simple testing.
To follow-up on this: the PSP MixBass2 (demo downloadable here, as "PSP MixPack", even though it's actually "MixPack2"), does NOT generate subharmonics. I ran the same sine wave/spectrum analyzer test on it that I used on the H82 Harmonic Maximizer.

It offers a number of controls for EQ, compression, saturation, and other tone-shaping. However, the harmonics it adds are all higher harmonics (via distortion/exciter processes). It does not add lower harmonics.

cheers,
Leigh

reFuse Software
Old 31st January 2010 | Show parent
  #28
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Wow, post #24 pretty much sewed it up! Who was that guy? He's smart! I'm gonna follow all of his advice from now on.

- c
Old 31st January 2010 | Show parent
  #29
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Hi Leigh,

Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh View Post

My test was to discover if the BBE Harmonic Maximizer was going to create new sub frequencies. On that count, I think it was accurate and fair, and the answer is no, it does not create new sub frequencies.

In other words, it behaves like an EQ would. If a certain frequency already exists, it can BOOST it. But it cannot CREATE frequencies that aren't there already.
Are you sure that is how the BBE Harmonic Maximizer works... it's just an EQ?

I had the impression that it acts on a given frequency, and creates new frequencies based on that. (But if there is nothing in the range you specify, it has nothing to work on.)

tbh, the details in the instruction manual that comes with the BBE sonic sweet are frustratingly sparse. But if what you are saying is true, then the people at Nomad Factory are lying when they say on their website that the plug-in 'adds Deeper and Extended Low Frequencies'

Simon ;-)
Old 31st January 2010 | Show parent
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post
Wow, post #24 pretty much sewed it up! Who was that guy? He's smart! I'm gonna follow all of his advice from now on.

- c
+1

His advice is really constructive, informative & useful. Imagine how good a resource Gearslutz could be if only everyone here posted responses like his.
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