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programming dance beats that push?
Old 13th March 2010
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nopattern View Post
no but you think all the other machines they used were synced through midi with under 1ms delay?

I cant even get that tight of midi sync with ableton and my machinedrum with TM-1 turbomidi...

this is probably why people still think analog sounds better, loose grooves from less that perfect sync

you can do all the eq and compression you want but there is no substitute from letting your transients breathe life in their own space. this is what creates the groove

nobody i know doing releasing techno or house tracks is putting sounds on a grid. i personally am lazy so i use the mpc templates in combination with a nice spread of track delays. you would be amazed how a 5ms spread in your sound will put the funk through the roof

also, correct me if im wrong but even old MPC's allowed you to play with microtimings? separate from the swing i meant
Here are two files, X and Y.
They are one BD sample (created in "stomper") and one HH sample - the BD is on the grid in both files.

One of these files has the hihats moved 5 ms off the grid - all done in cubase.

Without opening the files in an editor can you tell which is which?
Attached Files

X.mp3 (315.3 KB, 210 views)

Y.mp3 (315.3 KB, 273 views)

Old 13th March 2010
  #122
Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
Here are two files, X and Y.
They are a BD and a HH sample - the BD is on the grid in both files.

One of these files has the hihats moved 5 ms off the grid - done in cubase.

Without opening the files in an editor can you tell which is which?
i like Y.
but it means nothing
with other sample result may vary.

in house/trance snap to grid is very important.
sometimes you can move claps/snares off the grid but for other instruments - i don't think so.
you just kill the beat. even if it has swing.
IMHO
Old 13th March 2010
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andivax View Post
i like Y.
but it means nothing
with other sample result may vary.
The point is that people claim to be able to hear differences as small as a few ticks - so with 5 ms difference it should be easy to spot for them which one is the one where the hat is off the grid...
Old 13th March 2010
  #124
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I liked Y better as well. That's my guess for the advanced HH.
Old 13th March 2010
  #125
I.P
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andivax View Post
as I mention before, you can use Waves S1 stereo imager or Sonalksis (Sonalksis - Quality Digital Audio Software) or free pc only stereo tools (Kelly Industries - Stereo Tools VST Plug-in for Steinberg Nuendo and Cubase).
sonalksis has some discounts ATM.
hey thanks

If i understand correctly the free Flux stereo tool may do the job as well ? (works for mac/win etc)?

but more important is to understand how it works and not what software to use ..

thats why i asked you if duplicating a track and apply different panning could be the same (perhaps with some ms delay as well) ..
Old 13th March 2010
  #126
I.P
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
Without opening the files in an editor can you tell which is which?
Y is going a bit faster and that sound better imo ... so +1 for that
Old 13th March 2010
  #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mekohler View Post
I liked Y better as well. That's my guess for the advanced HH.
Thx for playing :-)
...and the correct answer is of course found in your daw of choice - where you can open the two files and compare the placement of the hats relative to the bd.

And as for liking it, this is not so much a question of liking it, but simply a question of being able to actually hear in which file the hats have been moved (as opposed to knowing because you did the moving yourself).

That is also why i chose a 5 ms displacement - it should be large enough to make it quite obvious - given the statements that people can hear movements of even a few ticks at the highest resolution.

.....

And what have i done to this file? heh
Again, can you, who claim to be able to, hear it?
Attached Files

Z.mp3 (315.3 KB, 160 views)

Old 13th March 2010
  #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
Here are two files, X and Y.
They are one BD sample (created in "stomper") and one HH sample - the BD is on the grid in both files.

One of these files has the hihats moved 5 ms off the grid - all done in cubase.

Without opening the files in an editor can you tell which is which?
X is clearly more tense than Y, which is more relaxed. And these differences are PLENTY more obvious when there are all the other elements playing off that hat as it's CONTEXTUAL. Happy now, call out boy? But I guess you'll now say I probably put it in Logic to 'look' at it.
Old 13th March 2010
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
Thx for playing :-)
...and the correct answer is of course found in your daw of choice - where you can open the two files and compare the placement of the hats relative to the bd.

And as for liking it, this is not so much a question of liking it, but simply a question of being able to actually hear in which file the hats have been moved (as opposed to knowing because you did the moving yourself).

That is also why i chose a 5 ms displacement - it should be large enough to make it quite obvious - given the statements that people can hear movements of even a few ticks at the highest resolution.

.....



And what have i done to this file? heh
Again, can you, who claim to be able to, hear it?
That must mean me then....sounds to me like you might have delayed the kick a little later than the grid, but then, with only HH and Kick the context is a little harder to read than in a track.

If you move ANY rhythm element in a running track 1 tick of track delay (which in Logic at 124 bpm is 0.5ms) and can't hear it have either a positive or negative effect on the groove.....then I don't know what to say.

You have got this all out of context and on the wrong side of ego it seems. And yes, actually it is a question of liking it, as moving things makes the groove lean in different directions of tension or relaxedness which is totally subjective depending on what vibe you're looking to achieve.
Old 13th March 2010
  #130
Quote:
Originally Posted by I.P View Post
hey thanks

If i understand correctly the free Flux stereo tool may do the job as well ? (works for mac/win etc)?

but more important is to understand how it works and not what software to use ..

thats why i asked you if duplicating a track and apply different panning could be the same (perhaps with some ms delay as well) ..
exactly! i forgot amazing free tool from flux!
if you are not cubase user - go for it!
also, there is standard logic plugin in logic pro. i forgot the exact name of the plugin.

about duplicating - you dont need to delay one audio track to another.
you must change pitch or percussion sound. it will works good (invisible) with percussion stuff. so, new, differently pitched sample will be differ from original.
as result, you will get very wide percusion.

also, you can pan original sound hardly right. and short reverb tail hardly left.
sometimes this method works good.
Old 13th March 2010
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
Thx for playing :-)
...and the correct answer is of course found in your daw of choice - where you can open the two files and compare the placement of the hats relative to the bd.

And as for liking it, this is not so much a question of liking it, but simply a question of being able to actually hear in which file the hats have been moved (as opposed to knowing because you did the moving yourself).

That is also why i chose a 5 ms displacement - it should be large enough to make it quite obvious - given the statements that people can hear movements of even a few ticks at the highest resolution.

.....

And what have i done to this file? heh
Again, can you, who claim to be able to, hear it?
The HH's start off aligned to the grid and then get moved ahead of the beat more and more?
Old 14th March 2010
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mekohler View Post
The HH's start off aligned to the grid and then get moved ahead of the beat more and more?
Nope, only doing the same bar 4 times
- first hh is 5 ms short of the grid, 4th hh is 5 ms after the grid.
Old 14th March 2010
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
That must mean me then....sounds to me like you might have delayed the kick a little later than the grid, but then, with only HH and Kick the context is a little harder to read than in a track.

If you move ANY rhythm element in a running track 1 tick of track delay (which in Logic at 124 bpm is 0.5ms) and can't hear it have either a positive or negative effect on the groove.....then I don't know what to say.

You have got this all out of context and on the wrong side of ego it seems. And yes, actually it is a question of liking it, as moving things makes the groove lean in different directions of tension or relaxedness which is totally subjective depending on what vibe you're looking to achieve.
Actually i think more people than just you made those claims.

And - i still say that these examples do show that the groove isn't found in the ms range.
The groove is in the interaction of the other instruments with the drum track.

Just because you can see a hh moved a few ticks in an editor, it doesn't mean that you can hear it too.

Take a listen to this handplayed thingy i did as a short demo of the JP8 - i think it grooves, but the drums are a totally straight R8 without "feel patterns" or anything.
http://www.grumphh.dk/music/Jupiter_8_R8_funky.mp3

.
Old 14th March 2010
  #134
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Its all about the bassline, the kick drum, and the hi-hat. the rest of the instruments are just enhancment effects and pretty much anything goes, even the lead. the biggest beginner mistake in electronic music is keeping the same patterns playing the fundamental elements mentioned above, while going wild with a lead synth. This is the equivalent of an 80's metal pop ballad with too much guitar solo, and not enough music. There should be changes in the fundamental parts, even if its only in timbre (like an lfo set to modulate a filter). For adding groovyness I usually use a simple whole, half or quarter note delay to one of the fundamental instruments. For funkyness add a triplet delay, and for trippiness use use any other prime number delay (5, 7, 9, 11, etc). A little reverb on percussion instruments really opens up the soundstage, especially if you can find a rythm pad that blends well with the tone.
Old 14th March 2010
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
Actually i think more people than just you made those claims.

And - i still say that these examples do show that the groove isn't found in the ms range.
The groove is in the interaction of the other instruments with the drum track.

Just because you can see a hh moved a few ticks in an editor, it doesn't mean that you can hear it too.

Take a listen to this handplayed thingy i did as a short demo of the JP8 - i think it grooves, but the drums are a totally straight R8 without "feel patterns" or anything.
http://www.grumphh.dk/music/Jupiter_8_R8_funky.mp3

.
So, as predicted you assume I bothered to put that loop in an editor. I didn't. Still, that's not even the point. My point is not that something straight (=no swing) can't groove. Of course it can. My point is sliding rhythm elements in context of the track make a noticeable/useable difference to the feel. With or without swing. Just like a drummer that hangs the kick back a little yet still playing a straight beat will feel different.To put up a kick and a 2-4 open 909 doesn't really illustrate that as there isn't any context for the elements to create tensions between each other. Kick to hat being only one of those tensions.
Old 14th March 2010
  #136
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My tuppence into this ongoing argument... I agree that a tiny change can make ALL the difference.

I've no idea of exact figures in milliseconds or anything like that... but I do often switch off the quantize and just freely nudge elements... the slightest movement can make a massive difference.

Also agree with what is being said by Karloff70 about context... will be far more significant to move a hi-hat that is leading 1/16 into a kick in the context of a groove, rather than a simple kick-hat-kick-hat 1/8 away from each other.
Old 14th March 2010
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
So, as predicted you assume I bothered to put that loop in an editor. I didn't. Still, that's not even the point. My point is not that something straight (=no swing) can't groove. Of course it can. My point is sliding rhythm elements in context of the track make a noticeable/useable difference to the feel. With or without swing. Just like a drummer that hangs the kick back a little yet still playing a straight beat will feel different.To put up a kick and a 2-4 open 909 doesn't really illustrate that as there isn't any context for the elements to create tensions between each other. Kick to hat being only one of those tensions.
The statement about seeing vs. hearing was a general one - not in particular directed at you at all.

It simply is a statement about the scourge of the digital age to suddenly focus on insignificant details such as placement of hihats in increments that are too small to ever have been noticed before the advent of tools that allowed users to see what they did - instead of just listening.

(Same thing as in digital photography where (perceived) faults you can only see at a magnification of 800% are eagerly discussed and thought of as detracting from the whole...)

As for putting up the simplest pattern possible, i would have thought that that would make any timing discrepancies/differences much easier to hear.
Old 14th March 2010
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simonator View Post
My tuppence into this ongoing argument... I agree that a tiny change can make ALL the difference.

I've no idea of exact figures in milliseconds or anything like that... but I do often switch off the quantize and just freely nudge elements... the slightest movement can make a massive difference.

Also agree with what is being said by Karloff70 about context... will be far more significant to move a hi-hat that is leading 1/16 into a kick in the context of a groove, rather than a simple kick-hat-kick-hat 1/8 away from each other.
What you are describing is rythm patterns - as opposed to "groove".
You could say macro vs. micro timing.

At 120 bpm even a 32nd note comes in at every 62.5 ms - which is about 60x the amount of note nudging that is discussed here (e.g a few ticks - or maybe a few ms...)
Old 15th March 2010
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
What you are describing is rythm patterns - as opposed to "groove".
You could say macro vs. micro timing.

At 120 bpm even a 32nd note comes in at every 62.5 ms - which is about 60x the amount of note nudging that is discussed here (e.g a few ticks - or maybe a few ms...)
Not at all.

Sorry if I did not express that in a clear way... What I'm trying to say is this:

In your example with kick-hat-kick-hat 1/8th note away from each other (which tbh, I haven't actually listened to... but I can understand what was in them from the comments), moving a hat a few ticks might not necessarily make any noticeable difference (particularly when no other elements are around them).
Whereas if you take a hi-hat that (if quantized) is 1/16th note before a kick... then nudge that by a just a TINY amount (just a few ticks)... THAT CAN be noticeable and make all the difference in the context of the groove... Exactly what Karloff70 is saying.


I was working on a track last week that had an unusual syncopated 808 conga rhythm. Most hits sounded fine... but just one was clumsy in its natural quantized position. Just the TINIEST imaginable nudge had it grooving instantly.
Old 15th March 2010
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simonator View Post
Not at all.

Sorry if I did not express that in a clear way... What I'm trying to say is this:

In your example with kick-hat-kick-hat 1/8th note away from each other (which tbh, I haven't actually listened to... but I can understand what was in them from the comments), moving a hat a few ticks might not necessarily make any noticeable difference (particularly when no other elements are around them).
Whereas if you take a hi-hat that (if quantized) is 1/16th note before a kick... then nudge that by a just a TINY amount (just a few ticks)... THAT CAN be noticeable and make all the difference in the context of the groove... Exactly what Karloff70 is saying.


I was working on a track last week that had an unusual syncopated 808 conga rhythm. Most hits sounded fine... but just one was clumsy in its natural quantized position. Just the TINIEST imaginable nudge had it grooving instantly.
Ok, cleared it up :-)

Could you be so kind as to present me with a few bars of that - one with the nudged conga and one with it straight on the grid?
Possibly even as a blind test?

Hearing is believing they say ;-)
Old 15th March 2010
  #141
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Hi,
Here are 2 files from a loop with kick/hh/synth.
On the first one kick is hard quantized, the other has about 5ms groove (if I remember well). I think there's a difference in the way it feels.
Attached Files

Straight.mp3 (174.4 KB, 214 views)

Groove.mp3 (163.1 KB, 213 views)

Old 15th March 2010
  #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
Ok, cleared it up :-)

Could you be so kind as to present me with a few bars of that - one with the nudged conga and one with it straight on the grid?
Possibly even as a blind test?

Hearing is believing they say ;-)

Okay...

Been 9 days since I last worked on the track & it turns out the conga was actually miles off the grid... the 'tiniest amount' I had in memory was just relative to the centre of where I placed it.
Therefore it seems irrelevant to post an example 'on the grid' as it's a much bigger difference than what is being discussed here... so I've shifted the conga +/- 10 ticks to illustrate the difference.

Three attachments. The only thing that differs between them is the timing of the penultimate 808 conga in every two-bar repetition.

0 = how my track currently is.
-10 = conga 10 ticks earlier
+10 = conga 10 ticks later

Subtle difference... but perceptible & IMO it's significant.

10 ticks is perceptible... What's crucial here though is that I did not choose to put the conga 3 ticks earlier than where it is, or 3 ticks later than it is... I put it exactly where it is because after shifting it back & forth I FELT that this was the optimal position


I was just messing around then, and noted that it makes a HUGE difference of perception of the conga if I take out the rimshot; without the rim, the current timing of the conga seems too early- the conga then flows more naturally if placed about 20 ticks later... but once the rim is audible, the conga sounds groovier here... again, it's all about contextualising the timing relative to what's going on around it.
Attached Files

0.wav (2.63 MB, 59 views)

-10.wav (2.63 MB, 53 views)

+10.wav (2.63 MB, 49 views)

Old 15th March 2010
  #143
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Hmmm... seems my attached WAVs are not streamed in a pleasant & easy way like the mp3s do... here are the mp3s of the same audio clips in the hope it will make playback more convenient.
Attached Files

0.mp3 (616.2 KB, 193 views)

-10.mp3 (616.2 KB, 156 views)

+10.mp3 (616.2 KB, 131 views)

Old 15th March 2010
  #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
And as for liking it, this is not so much a question of liking it, but simply a question of being able to actually hear in which file the hats have been moved (as opposed to knowing because you did the moving yourself).
I totally comprehend the point you are making here...

BUT...

I'd disagree with what you say about 'it's not so much a question of liking it'... I think that is EXACTLY the point. your brain might not be accurate enough to differentiate which is which in your test... but if you do have an emotive reaction to which one is preferential, then this IS significant, and is exactly the point we are making.

; A 5ms nudge is well worth making if it makes listeners perceive your music as better than if you did not make the nudge.

If people do have a preference as to which one they 'like' the best in your 5ms test, then your test completely disproves your own point.
... If no one could tell ANY difference, then you would have a point.

Please... can you tell us which is which in your initial test... I really can't be ar**ed to load them up into my DAW & start faffing around with them.
Old 15th March 2010
  #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simonator View Post
I totally comprehend the point you are making here...

BUT...

I'd disagree with what you say about 'it's not so much a question of liking it'... I think that is EXACTLY the point. your brain might not be accurate enough to differentiate which is which in your test... but if you do have an emotive reaction to which one is preferential, then this IS significant, and is exactly the point we are making.

; A 5ms nudge is well worth making if it makes listeners perceive your music as better than if you did not make the nudge.

If people do have a preference as to which one they 'like' the best in your 5ms test, then your test completely disproves your own point.
... If no one could tell ANY difference, then you would have a point.

Please... can you tell us which is which in your initial test... I really can't be ar**ed to load them up into my DAW & start faffing around with them.
Thx for the examples of your conga placement - i'll be listening closely later today - and thx for being honest about the actual placement of the conga that made the groove fall into place. thumbsup

Because i honestly think that stories such as yours are the reasons for this "milisecond myth" - someone claiming to have nudged something a fraction of a second, when it turns out that they have in fact altered the basic rythm pattern because the nudge was quite a bit bigger than they expected/remembered.

As for my examples:
X is where all the hats have been moved + 5 ms off the grid
Y is straight
Z is where the first of 4 hats (i.e. 1 bar) is moved -5 ms and the 4th is moved + 5 ms - someone described this previously in this thread as putting the emphasis on the first bd hit...
Old 15th March 2010
  #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
Thx for the examples of your conga placement - i'll be listening closely later today - and thx for being honest about the actual placement of the conga that made the groove fall into place. thumbsup

Because i honestly think that stories such as yours are the reasons for this "milisecond myth" - someone claiming to have nudged something a fraction of a second, when it turns out that they have in fact altered the basic rythm pattern because the nudge was quite a bit bigger than they expected/remembered.
Well, in my memory, I knew that nudging by the 'tiniest amount' was making a HUGE difference to if it grooved or not. Whether or not that was relative to a quantized grid seems irrespective to me; there are obviously MANY different available quantize patterns.
MY final placement was at 2 beats and 84 ticks... which I FELT was OPTIMAL -beyond 81 ticks or 87 ticks.... as little as three ticks different did FEEL less good. Which seems to be the essence of the convoluted discussion here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
As for my examples:
X is where all the hats have been moved + 5 ms off the grid
Y is straight
Interestingly, (seemingly in disagreement with consensus of other comments here) I personally preferred X.
Hearing the two side by side, X felt more natural to me, Y felt clumsy... which is odd with it being a simple 1/8 pattern; even if shuffled these hats would not be moved... This is something I'll definitely be baring in mind when programming beats in future... and again, I feel this result then kind of disproves your own theory does it not?... If it's only 5ms and there is a significant difference?

Just to confirm (what is probably obvious)... by '+5 ms off the grid', I take it you mean 5ms LATER... ie, the hats were moved a tiny bit to the right within the midi piano-roll editor?

Cheers


Old 15th March 2010
  #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simonator View Post
I

I'd disagree with what you say about 'it's not so much a question of liking it'... I think that is EXACTLY the point. your brain might not be accurate enough to differentiate which is which in your test... but if you do have an emotive reaction to which one is preferential, then this IS significant, and is exactly the point we are making.
thumbsupthumbsupthumbsup

There are two statements here. That was one. The one I subscribe to. The other one is the 'standard GS of the moment' one, which seems to be "no, you can't really hear that, you're tripping, prove it, prove it!!".......dull
Old 15th March 2010
  #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simonator View Post

Just to confirm (what is probably obvious)... by '+5 ms off the grid', I take it you mean 5ms LATER... ie, the hats were moved a tiny bit to the right within the midi piano-roll editor?

That is exactly what i meant - i am sure that there is some technical expression for that too, but i don't know it :-)
Old 15th March 2010
  #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simonator View Post


Ok, i have listened now, and i simply don't hear nor feel a difference.
And just for the record, i did run them through cubase and i did see the differences in the waveforms.
But i am biased so my opinion doesn't matter anyway heh

Of course the titling of the tracks can lead people to hear stuff they otherwise couldn't, which is the way the human brain works - look no further than the audiophile world for proof of that statement...

And that is why we have blind tests.
Get a mate to randomly play your 3 files to you multiple times over while both of you write down which is which as you go along (in silence of course). Then compare your track lists.
I am sure that the results will show that even you as the creator won't be able to tell a difference between the files.
Old 15th March 2010
  #150
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This is all being looked at wrong. Simply moving hihats around doesn't doo too much. What you want to do is look at beats that have been played by drummers in the past. I look at disco beats because this is house music. You will see early kicks sometimes and all kinds of nice feel that is not on the grid. I do not lock my kicks to the grid. I use groove settings on Idrum to make the drums come alive and move you.

I wish my DAW was working so I could post an audio example. You would clearly hear the difference, and more importantly FEEL it.
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