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Jupiter 8 synth problems!!! Keyboard Synthesizers
Old 6th November 2009
  #1
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Jupiter 8 synth problems!!!

Hello fellow slutz!

Well I finally bit the bullet and just got a Roland Jupiter 8. This is for sure the old 12-bit version but it seems someone added the official DCB board at one point. Typical eBay find as always a synth needs service. I am sure I'm not alone with this.



Now on to the problems:

1) It's all weird and not reliable. Its voices are all out of tune for each other. Out of tune like a half tone higher or lower.

2) It sometimes reboots all by itself after being on for more than 30 mins. Sometimes it comes up with random errors like DAC1 or the reboot fails on voice 5 the autotune.

3) Some of its 16 voices have this oscillation to them that does not go away. Kinda like it has a bit of cross mod applied. All 8 voices of osc 2 seem to work fine but out of tune.

4) Autotune works but its voices are all out of tune on cold boot or test more 3. Probably this can simply be calibrated so a cold boot will have a reasonable in tune instrument.

5) Some jerk thought drilling a mod on the front panel would be a good idea. It's not connected when poking inside. I could not see evidence of solder modification so I have no idea what it did. I'll have to figure out how to reverse it as it looks terrible.



6) its bender knob is busted. No biggie because I can just replace it.

7) missing one slider cap. Again I can simply replace it.

Okay so in my head it seems like the power supply is to blame. Mostly because I see there are some serious leakage from the electrolytic caps on the P/S. And because sometimes I can switch it on and it works perfectly fine! Other times after a warm up it refuses to work at all.




I can solder with reasonable skill and think I can tackle changing the caps at least. Are there any other components which could cause random issues like this?

Otherwise it sounds absolutely tits in a out of tune, rough way

Any help would be much appreciated.thumbsup
Old 6th November 2009
  #2
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Now I've made some audio examples.

First is a test of the voices going up the keyboard chromatically. See just how off it is? I did not make any playing errors, this is how it sounds before auto tune. First VCO1 then VCO 2.

scale test

Here is test mode 3. This is not give always the same results. There is a DA01 error when in this mode. Also sometimes the voices work perfectly or just give noise. This moves randomly every boot. First VCO1 then VCO2, then mixed. The key pressed is always A4.

test mode 3

Now here are just some examples of what a JP8 can do.. just for the hell of it. This is when he fees like working and after many auto tunes to get him in reasonable tune!

Fun sounds
Old 6th November 2009
  #3
nightmare!
it needs some TLC.
my guess is whoever did that ugly-ass mod on it ****ed it up somehow. rebooting is a real bad sign. i feel for you buddy. can't help you. good luck.
Old 6th November 2009
  #4
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roginator's Avatar
 

whell im not 100% sure
but that dont look like caps leaking its glue under them..typical for most gear from that age..!!!



I would not blame psu .. take volt meter and measure rails!!!!
Old 6th November 2009
  #5
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****, that's about $4000+ worth of malfunctioning "as-is" synth right there. i sure would have held off, especially seeing those mods and the broken pitch bender. hope everything works out, but you'll still have two holes drilled into it either way. yikes.
Old 6th November 2009
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golden beers View Post
nightmare!
it needs some TLC.
my guess is whoever did that ugly-ass mod on it ****ed it up somehow. rebooting is a real bad sign. i feel for you buddy. can't help you. good luck.
Thanks!


Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuonacc View Post
****, that's about $4000+ worth of malfunctioning "as-is" synth right there. i sure would have held off, especially seeing those mods and the broken pitch bender. hope everything works out, but you'll still have two holes drilled into it either way. yikes.
Yeah typical eBay BS tell me about it. The thing was a total false advertisement; "..all eight voices working fine.." Even the video seemed to show it working fine but the youtube audio is crap so who knows.

The thing is I know a tech who is like 500 km away who was a former Roland tech from this era so I can always let him repair it. Shipping will cost me but apparently he has even fixed other nightmare Jupiter 4s and 8s. Probably I have no choice in the matter but send it to him.
Old 6th November 2009
  #7
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That would be the glue used as strain relief for the large electrolytics, not electrolyte leakage. Yes, the first thing to do is to test the power supply, and to do it you will need an oscilloscope rather than a multimeter. This is because a meter will tell you the voltages, but it cannot see ripple. If you have bad filter capacitors, or a dead diode in one of the bridge rectifiers there will be a sine or sawtooth ripple on the low voltage DC lines.

Also check for broken wires that are barely making contact (the brown, red and orange wires) that go from the power supply board to the board on the rear panel with the power transistors attached to the heatsink, they often crack at the solder joints from flexing when the lid is opened and closed.

The smaller electrolytics on the power supply board that are near the white power resistors and to the diodes that are spaced from the board will likely be a bit cooked and dried out from the heat, again, an oscilloscope will tell you a lot.
Old 7th November 2009
  #8
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GYang's Avatar
Such $hit happens with old synths on Ebay.
I was fukked with OB8 from fellow GS member (I didn't know that at moment of purchase) and the repair bill was almost 900$.
I left him good feedback, too.
I don't wish to identify him, but he reads posts here and will know exactly what I'm talking about. Synth was sold as mint and 100% functional (it looks mint in reality).
JP8 is one of more reliable synths and here I had luck, guy who sold it was really passionate and caring.
Old 7th November 2009
  #9
I wouldn't try and mess with it if you are not sure what to do. Totally worth sending it off to get fixed IMO.
Old 7th November 2009
  #10
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My first guess would be to find where the cables from the switches went. Most likely they are still attached looking at the stellar job of the cut cables at the switches. Look at the pcboard side facing to the metal plates of the synth too. Once you figured out where they went look for cut traces or bad solder joins. Looking at the switches my guess would be that at some time more memory got addressed.

Your problem looks to be digital in nature (keytracking, etc.) Analog problems are much easier to find, at least for me. Download the schematics, if available. I should have a copy as well from my time fixing my JP8. And now you know another reason why the JP-6 is a better synth.

Good luck.
Old 7th November 2009
  #11
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Lots to check.

Power supply first for sure. Since mods were done - check the power supply board and the regulator board attached to the heat sink for cracks. I had a JP-8 in once with reboot issues and it was a cracked regulator boar (must have fallen on the heatsink or something).

The cross mod sound is probably dirty or bad sliders. With the JP-4 and JP-8, always check the sliders first. Bad sliders will spit all kinds of crap into the system making it appear to have multiple electrical faults.

Unfortunately if a slider is truly bad (i.e. - an open on a track), there's no repair for it currently. If you have an ultrasonic cleaner, you can clean the sliders on the board. Otherwise, unsolder each one that is suspect and carefully take it apart and clean the tracks and wipers.

more later.
Old 7th November 2009
  #12
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alexp's Avatar
Quote:

The thing is I know a tech who is like 500 km away who was a former Roland tech from this era so I can always let him repair it. Shipping will cost me but apparently he has even fixed other nightmare Jupiter 4s and 8s. Probably I have no choice in the matter but send it to him.

I take it your talking about Jim Nelson? I would definitely send it to him. If anyone can get it working, its gonna be him! If you need contact info on him for whatever reason, PM me.

alexP
Old 7th November 2009
  #13
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lain2097's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by raffor View Post
...Your problem looks to be digital in nature (keytracking, etc.) Analog problems are much easier to find, at least for me. Download the schematics, if available. I should have a copy as well from my time fixing my JP8. And now you know another reason why the JP-6 is a better synth.

Good luck.
I don't think it's the key tracking as when I enter test mode 3 (each voice one by one) they're all out of whack. Doing auto tune many times will get the synth's voices in reasonable tune with each other.

And yes I still totally love my Jupiter 6. I have no desire to sell. She has been nothing but reliable to me and I really like that hard in your face CEM sound.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldgearguy View Post
Lots to check.

Power supply first for sure. Since mods were done - check the power supply board and the regulator board attached to the heat sink for cracks. I had a JP-8 in once with reboot issues and it was a cracked regulator boar (must have fallen on the heatsink or something).

The cross mod sound is probably dirty or bad sliders. With the JP-4 and JP-8, always check the sliders first. Bad sliders will spit all kinds of crap into the system making it appear to have multiple electrical faults.

Unfortunately if a slider is truly bad (i.e. - an open on a track), there's no repair for it currently. If you have an ultrasonic cleaner, you can clean the sliders on the board. Otherwise, unsolder each one that is suspect and carefully take it apart and clean the tracks and wipers.

more later.
Yeah I think I solved the rebooting issue by reheating the solder joints on the regulator chips (touch wood). However the voice issues still are ever present. It really is not a dirty slider because the oscillation issue remains with the same voice if triggered one by one in test mode. It's totally repeatable so it's a voice issue. Actually its sliders seem to work fine - when I'm on a patch the small led dots do not appear meaning the panel didi not change.

Also there is a VCA bleed where a faint sound can be heard in the background, along with a high frequency sound on the output.

I would probably send it to you if you weren't so damn far!

Bottom line: it's going to a pro.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexp View Post
I take it your talking about Jim Nelson? I would definitely send it to him. If anyone can get it working, its gonna be him! If you need contact info on him for whatever reason, PM me.

alexP
Yes sir I am. My SH-2 will have to wait as I now have to send him this 22 kg beast! I was recommended him by another Canadian GS member. just like a renovation: it'll all be worth it in the end.

thanks for all the helpful replies everyone!thumbsup
Old 30th July 2010
  #14
Quote:
Originally Posted by lain2097 View Post
5) Some jerk thought drilling a mod on the front panel would be a good idea. It's not connected when poking inside. I could not see evidence of solder modification so I have no idea what it did. I'll have to figure out how to reverse it as it looks terrible.

hi Iain

i can tell you what this mod is because i have it on my 12 bit Jupiter 8.
its a JL cooper patch expansion mod by the looks of it.. which adds another 2 banks of 64 patch slots/memory

my mod works great even tho its a bit ugly.

mine also came with the op8 dcb expansion with an MD-8 dcb-mid converter

2 of my voices were out of tune really badly and it cost me a lot and was a big headache to get it repaired/calibrated

the callibration process for the 12 bit units can be a nightmare and very time consuming and frustrating for even experienced synth techs as the position of the adjustments arent marked and there are over 200 for each voice!
also get the tech to check your power supply as he will probably do anyways when he gives it the diagnostic.

good luck m8!
Old 30th July 2010
  #15
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The voices all being out of whack minus auto-tune is quite natural if it's not had much TLC in the past decade (or three). The fact your auto-tune doesn't fix it is a bit worrying. All I can suggest is leave it to warm up for a while before you hit autotune. It could be it needs a load of autotune hits as it's still getting up to temperature. Before I got mine calibrated (14-bit one), It'd drift back out of tune quite quickly for the first hour but then sort of be alright - though I'd still have to autotune every half hour or so as the two most out calibration voices would always wonder off into atonal mayhem. Since I've had it calibrated, I barely need to hit autotune, it's great!

The JP8 is a bit noisy in outputs, not to the same extent as say a Juno, but it's definately there.
Old 30th July 2010
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by starfield View Post
the callibration process for the 12 bit units can be a nightmare and very time consuming and frustrating for even experienced synth techs as the position of the adjustments arent marked and there are over 200 for each voice!
200?
Old 30th July 2010
  #17
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Xero's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Space Station View Post
200?
i think its more like 200 total isnt it? not per each voice...

also 12 bit vs 14bit calibration shouldn't really be any harder since the voice boards are exactly the same. The only ones that are harder are the first 500 production run, as these lack certain test points. I believe if your serial number is above around 115,000 you 're OK...the service manual lists the exact cutoff for the first 500...

however i'm pretty sure don and old gear guy both have jp8's in that first run and both are able to get theirs tuned up just fine. My 12bit is post-500 run, and is rock solid at tuning, even after it's been many hours.....it's also got encore which speeds up the autotune significantly.

however i had noticed by accident if i plug in like an AC box fan and put it near my jp8, it will sometimes not tune right, probably cause it spews EMI all over the place, so I don't do that :P
Old 30th July 2010
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexp View Post
I take it your talking about Jim Nelson? I would definitely send it to him. If anyone can get it working, its gonna be him! If you need contact info on him for whatever reason, PM me.

alexP
I would need to contact this jim Nelson! I have a sh-101 going pretty bad here... Pm me please with his info? thanks!

And hey Lain, your JP8 is finally repaired?
Old 30th July 2010
  #19
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by murphythecat87 View Post
..And hey Lain, your JP8 is finally repaired?
Wow old thread.

Yes it is STILL in repair, by another tech btw without getting into details.

So far the P/S has been mended; no more rebooting and unstable operation. And the DAC has been changed although the strange voice problems persist. Tech says its either something else broken on the interface board or the voices themselves.

And yes the tech agrees on that damn ugly mod - capping it.

Huph, didn't know that the switch is for a legit memory expansion?

One day, one day...
Old 31st July 2010
  #20
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Xero's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by lain2097 View Post
Wow old thread.

Yes it is STILL in repair, by another tech btw without getting into details.

So far the P/S has been mended; no more rebooting and unstable operation. And the DAC has been changed although the strange voice problems persist. Tech says its either something else broken on the interface board or the voices themselves.

And yes the tech agrees on that damn ugly mod - capping it.

Huph, didn't know that the switch is for a legit memory expansion?

One day, one day...
it seems like it should be easy enough to test if the interface board or the voices are the problem but who knows what poor mods that thing went through

The DAC was changed? so like, 12 bit to 14bit or just replacing the chip?
Old 31st December 2016
  #21
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Roland Jupiter 8 Env Mod issues

Hello great Gearslutz gurus/ Roland Jupiter 8 gurus

I am hoping someone out there can shed some light for me, I recently got a hold of a JP8 a while back while I am absolutely loving this machine, I cant help but notice I seem to have some issues with my Env Mod, to demonstrate I have made a short video clip, for my tech here in the UK I am hoping some one else out there can give me a second opinion before going to the tech shop, which as we all now know can get pricey at times!!! I would greatly appreciate it if anyone else can have a listen and possibly tell me if this is something I could do, I am quite comfortable with opening up a synth and using a IC puller to replace a chip if need be, as to I have replaced Omp chips on a Oberheim OBX in the past but that was a simple enough drop in replacement.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/806p3qa5qt...31902.mp4?dl=0


Here is what my tech said after showing him the clip

"My comments are of course provisional as I have not inspected the synth but you appear to have a fault with the vca/ envelope generator on one of the 8 voices.
It's fixable but it's unlikely to be a simple fix. I have noticed several envelope failures with Juno 60's recently which use some of the same components in that area.
The main suspect is unfortunately a rare and expensive chip. We do have a few in stock.
I estimate repair to be between £175 to £225.There is a fair amount of work involved.
You can assign the filter to either env1 or 2 and in some cases that may be a workaround but on some sounds the faulty voice will be noticeable"

I did do the assignment of env but no success
Old 31st December 2016
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eastfrontline View Post
Hello great Gearslutz gurus/ Roland Jupiter 8 gurus

I am hoping someone out there can shed some light for me, I recently got a hold of a JP8 a while back while I am absolutely loving this machine, I cant help but notice I seem to have some issues with my Env Mod, to demonstrate I have made a short video clip, for my tech here in the UK I am hoping some one else out there can give me a second opinion before going to the tech shop, which as we all now know can get pricey at times!!! I would greatly appreciate it if anyone else can have a listen and possibly tell me if this is something I could do, I am quite comfortable with opening up a synth and using a IC puller to replace a chip if need be, as to I have replaced Omp chips on a Oberheim OBX in the past but that was a simple enough drop in replacement.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/806p3qa5qt...31902.mp4?dl=0


Here is what my tech said after showing him the clip

"My comments are of course provisional as I have not inspected the synth but you appear to have a fault with the vca/ envelope generator on one of the 8 voices.
It's fixable but it's unlikely to be a simple fix. I have noticed several envelope failures with Juno 60's recently which use some of the same components in that area.
The main suspect is unfortunately a rare and expensive chip. We do have a few in stock.
I estimate repair to be between £175 to £225.There is a fair amount of work involved.
You can assign the filter to either env1 or 2 and in some cases that may be a workaround but on some sounds the faulty voice will be noticeable"

I did do the assignment of env but no success
The Roland envelope generator chips in the JP-8 are indeed rare, they were only used in two other machines, the Juno-6 and Juno-60 and they were never plentiful as spare parts.
Old 9th April 2018
  #23
Gear Maniac
 

Hey guys! Unfortunately not joining the club of JP8 owners permanently - but I am lucky to have a very good condition JP8 at my disposal for a while - so I want to make the most of my time with it. This particular unit is in fantastic cosmetic shape, a few bent sliders but all controls intact. The owner hadn't used it much after acquiring it so it's just been sitting around. Nonetheless, I convinced him to bring it over and we'd try it out. Amazingly it powers on, and mostly works. Even seems a lot of presets are loaded so battery appears good.

So here is the issue with it - it seems on many patches, OSC1 on one voice is way out of tune. The unit as a whole seems to pass autotune however. Yet, when I find a patch with this behavior I will hit a note and hear that osc2 is in tune, while osc1 is way out, multiple semitones at least. I can repeatedly hit the same note and it seems to always demonstrate the tuning behavior. Sometimes playing other notes in succession will correct the bad note, but not always. Occasionally it has seemed that every 8th note behaves this way - so I'd like to know if there is a way to disable the voices so I can perhaps systematically determine if it is a specific voice that is bad. Any specific approaches some of you gurus might try?

Thanks in advance.
Old 16th April 2018
  #24
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mima85's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bad andy View Post
So here is the issue with it - it seems on many patches, OSC1 on one voice is way out of tune. The unit as a whole seems to pass autotune however. Yet, when I find a patch with this behavior I will hit a note and hear that osc2 is in tune, while osc1 is way out, multiple semitones at least. I can repeatedly hit the same note and it seems to always demonstrate the tuning behavior. Sometimes playing other notes in succession will correct the bad note, but not always. Occasionally it has seemed that every 8th note behaves this way - so I'd like to know if there is a way to disable the voices so I can perhaps systematically determine if it is a specific voice that is bad. Any specific approaches some of you gurus might try?

Thanks in advance.
Try to do a very simple patch with just VCO1 (turn the VCO Mix knob all the way left) and VCF and VCA fully opened, then play a scale along the whole keyboard. If every 8 notes one sounds out of tune, probably the control voltage that drives that VCO's pitch is wrong.

Usually this is due to problems in the CV generation circuit residing on a board that Roland calls "Interface Board", mounted on the synth's right side, which is this one. On that board there are 8 of these circuits (they're clearly visible at the board's right side), one for each voice, and each circuits generates the CVs for both VCOs. So there are 16 CVs coming out from that board.

At the beginning of each circuit there's a TL082 op-amp chip (the chips are marked NEC C4082C on the board in the photo) which when goes bad, makes one or both the VCOs of the voice driven from that circuit to go out of tune.

So what you have to do is:

1) Turn on the Jupiter in test mode (hold down together the PATCH NUMBER 1 and 3 buttons, turn on the synth, release them). Hit the TUNE button to autotune the oscillators.

2) With the patch you made following my instructions, press a key repeatedly until you hear the badly out of tune VCO. While doing this, keep an eye on the leds embedded in the PATCH NUMBER buttons, as for every key press the Jupiter will cycle thru all the voices and turn on the leds according to the currently playing one. So for example if when you hear the out of tune VCO the led in the 5th PATCH NUMBER button is turned on, the problem regards the 5th voice.

3) After having discovered which voice is being affected by the problem, open up your Jupiter and reseat all the ribbon cables in their connectors, as a first measure to try to solve the issue. Maybe your problem is just due to oxidation in the flat cables connectors, nothing strange for a 35+ years synth. Then check if now the issue is gone.

4) If the issue is still here then you have to check the CV circuits I talked about above. So, sticking with our 5th voice example, the affected CV circuit will be the 5th one starting from the top. You will need an oscilloscope to probe the pins of that circuit's TL082, to see if the control voltages coming in and out of it are OK. As you can see in this schematics of a TL082, you'll have to check on pins 1, 2, 3 on the left side and 5, 6, 7 on the right side if the signals are stable and without any summed interference in form of AC signals or excessive noise. If you see such interferences then that chip is bad and have to be replaced (spare chips can be easily found on eBay for pennies), as the unstable CV will interfere with the autotune routine and will make it to tune the oscillator in a bad way. As a result of this, you'll have the out of tune oscillator problem you're facing.
Old 16th April 2018
  #25
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mima85 View Post
Try to do a very simple patch with just VCO1 (turn the VCO Mix knob all the way left) and VCF and VCA fully opened, then play a scale along the whole keyboard. If every 8 notes one sounds out of tune, probably the control voltage that drives that VCO's pitch is wrong.

Usually this is due to problems in the CV generation circuit residing on a board that Roland calls "Interface Board", mounted on the synth's right side, which is this one. On that board there are 8 of these circuits (they're clearly visible at the board's right side), one for each voice, and each circuits generates the CVs for both VCOs. So there are 16 CVs coming out from that board.

At the beginning of each circuit there's a TL082 op-amp chip (the chips are marked NEC C4082C on the board in the photo) which when goes bad, makes one or both the VCOs of the voice driven from that circuit to go out of tune.

So what you have to do is:

1) Turn on the Jupiter in test mode (hold down together the PATCH NUMBER 1 and 3 buttons, turn on the synth, release them). Hit the TUNE button to autotune the oscillators.

2) With the patch you made following my instructions, press a key repeatedly until you hear the badly out of tune VCO. While doing this, keep an eye on the leds embedded in the PATCH NUMBER buttons, as for every key press the Jupiter will cycle thru all the voices and turn on the leds according to the currently playing one. So for example if when you hear the out of tune VCO the led in the 5th PATCH NUMBER button is turned on, the problem regards the 5th voice.

3) After having discovered which voice is being affected by the problem, open up your Jupiter and reseat all the ribbon cables in their connectors, as a first measure to try to solve the issue. Maybe your problem is just due to oxidation in the flat cables connectors, nothing strange for a 35+ years synth. Then check if now the issue is gone.

4) If the issue is still here then you have to check the CV circuits I talked about above. So, sticking with our 5th voice example, the affected CV circuit will be the 5th one starting from the top. You will need an oscilloscope to probe the pins of that circuit's TL082, to see if the control voltages coming in and out of it are OK. As you can see in this schematics of a TL082, you'll have to check on pins 1, 2, 3 on the left side and 5, 6, 7 on the right side if the signals are stable and without any summed interference in form of AC signals or excessive noise. If you see such interferences then that chip is bad and have to be replaced (spare chips can be easily found on eBay for pennies), as the unstable CV will interfere with the autotune routine and will make it to tune the oscillator in a bad way. As a result of this, you'll have the out of tune oscillator problem you're facing.
Excellent info, thanks! I owe you a beer or six.
Old 16th April 2018
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bad andy View Post
Excellent info, thanks! I owe you a beer or six.
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