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My Kicks are making things vibrate Dynamics Plugins
Old 8th August 2008
  #31
Gear Nut
 

Thanks for the tips especially David I gave your advice a go and it did improve my kick. ...But I am also starting think it is also my sample as well.

Here is the link to the original kick sample which is from the vengeance minimal pack like to here the thoughts on the quality of it.
www.pgmrefiners.com/images/kicks.wav


I actually was considering getting the Jomo does it compare to the original 909 at all?
Also out of UAD plugins what is the best compressor for kicks?

Thanks again
Old 8th August 2008
  #32
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by duvalle View Post

p.s.
and if you put your track at 128 bpm
you can just use the ready to go vengeance percussion loops too!
and then you will sound like 90% of the electro club stuff that's played.
try it - it's true ... no comp or eq needed ...

Not much of a brain needed as well...
Old 8th August 2008
  #33
thx1138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
Not much of a brain needed as well...
heh
Old 8th August 2008
  #34
FBM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b_karv View Post
Thanks for the tips especially David I gave your advice a go and it did improve my kick. ...But I am also starting think it is also my sample as well.

Here is the link to the original kick sample which is from the vengeance minimal pack like to here the thoughts on the quality of it.
www.pgmrefiners.com/images/kicks.wav


I actually was considering getting the Jomo does it compare to the original 909 at all?
Also out of UAD plugins what is the best compressor for kicks?

Thanks again
Hi, This kick doesn't sound really good, but give me some time and I will post some kicksounds made with my: Jomox Mbase, Roland TR909 and MachineDrum. Then you can hear the difference between that sample stuff and a homemade product. And the Uad1 1176 is the best, I use it together with the SPL transient designer.
David
Old 8th August 2008
  #35
FBM
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Hi, Here are 3 recordings of my drum-machines. The MachineDrum Kick and the MBase01 Kick had som tech EQing and light compression 1:1.6 (only cuts!!!no boosts!!!). You could of course use creative EQing on them, but I don't do it when it is not needed!
The TR909 is untreated.
Don't forget it's only a weak mp3!
Cheers David

The TR909 is recorded without anything in between only to show how it sounds! This is no
example of a good kick!!!!
Attached Files

GEARKICKMACHINEDRUM.mp3 (237.1 KB, 146 views)

GEARKICKMBASE01.mp3 (237.1 KB, 132 views)

GEARKICKTR909.mp3 (237.1 KB, 127 views)

Old 8th August 2008
  #36
Gear Nut
 

The sample of electron machinedrum sounds really good...puts my kick sample to shame

mate do you have any tracks of yours I can listen too?
Old 8th August 2008
  #37
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duvalle's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
Not much of a brain needed as well...
lol ... that's what i thought too ...

but does it really make sense to advice someone to make his own kick drum
when he can't handle samples correct? if you need tons of eq or compression on a kick
drum sample you should just use another sample that fits better. the next step after
using ready made kicks would be to layer some kick samples. and after that, if you still
can't find a sound you like, you might want to make your own kick from scratch ...

heh
Old 8th August 2008
  #38
FBM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b_karv View Post
The sample of electron machinedrum sounds really good...puts my kick sample to shame

mate do you have any tracks of yours I can listen too?
Hi, I'm sorry I like to stay anonymous (hope you can respect that), but I'm always willing to give advice.
Dvid
Old 8th August 2008
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duvalle View Post
if you still
can't find a sound you like, you might want to make your own kick from scratch ...

heh
Yep, after many years of using bad samples from the internet...I've turned to drum synthesis... I'm still don't have it perfected, but it is getting alot better.
Old 8th August 2008
  #40
Quote:
Originally Posted by duvalle View Post
but does it really make sense to advice someone to make his own kick drum when he can't handle samples correct? if you need tons of eq or compression on a kick drum sample you should just use another sample that fits better. the next step after using ready made kicks would be to layer some kick samples. and after that, if you still can't find a sound you like, you might want to make your own kick from scratch ...
exactly what I wanted to say. and there are good samples on the net (yes even free ones) seek and ye shall find is all.
Old 8th August 2008
  #41
Gear Maniac
 

Another Machinedrum bassdrum loop.
A pretty beefy one, with some UAD-1 processing added...
Two bars @ 126 bpm (24 bit, mono .wav file).
Attached Files

LCVL - Machinedrum Kick Loop.wav (492.3 KB, 85 views)

Old 8th August 2008
  #42
Gear Maniac
 

Some more kicks, synthesized from Machinedrum, Clavia Nord Modular and G2.
Have fun.
Attached Files

LCVL - Various Kicks.wav (1.74 MB, 87 views)

Old 8th August 2008
  #43
Gear Addict
 

Im seriously considering getting an Mbase 01 to provide my subby kicks for layering with a nice sampled thumpy one. Does it do good deep 808 style hummers as well as 909 thumps?
Old 8th August 2008
  #44
FBM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drone View Post
So long as you're not Tiesto.

Nice filter cuts btw. Your kicks sound toight !
Thanks! No I'm not Tiesto. And yes you can make any sound with the Mbase01. You can tune it, change the attack & release etc.

You can ad or remove * or high/low impact to it. (hum &thump!)

I think it saves you from looking for the perfect kick, because in minutes you can create your own kick. And as a bonus you can use the Mbase01 as a analog bass-synth. (I start to sound like a tel-sell commercial)

The problem I have with sample stuff is that :

*I do not know what is done with it.
*Most of the time it sounds so f***ed-up (specially that RMX stuff), that all your other sounds
are going on the same trip (sound wise) and at the end the kick-sample is dictating/dominating
your whole track.
*When it's all in your hands it saves time and frustration.
*In the past I have spent hours on looking for or adjusting drum samples, now with my hardware I
create stuff in minutes and make my own NI Battery3 libraries


David
Old 8th August 2008
  #45
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I'm selling an MBase01 in Germany, if anyone is interested PM me.
Old 9th August 2008
  #46
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by FBM View Post
Hi, I'm sorry I like to stay anonymous (hope you can respect that), but I'm always willing to give advice.
Dvid
That's all good man, but really appreciate the advice. Yeah I think the Mbase would be a good option as I like tuning my kicks to the tune as well which is obviously harder with a sample without loosing quality.

Also what is the best volume level to mix at?
Old 9th August 2008
  #47
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Ged Leitch's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by FBM View Post
Thanks! No I'm not Tiesto. And yes you can make any sound with the Mbase01. You can tune it, change the attack & release etc.

You can ad or remove * or high/low impact to it. (hum &thump!)

I think it saves you from looking for the perfect kick, because in minutes you can create your own kick. And as a bonus you can use the Mbase01 as a analog bass-synth. (I start to sound like a tel-sell commercial)

The problem I have with sample stuff is that :

*I do not know what is done with it.
*Most of the time it sounds so f***ed-up (specially that RMX stuff), that all your other sounds
are going on the same trip (sound wise) and at the end the kick-sample is dictating/dominating
your whole track.
*When it's all in your hands it saves time and frustration.
*In the past I have spent hours on looking for or adjusting drum samples, now with my hardware I
create stuff in minutes and make my own NI Battery3 libraries


David
Hi David,

a few questions...

you posted regarding using waves Q10 to notch out resonances, and you suggested using a Q of 100 to dip them - dont you find that this is too high a Q factor???
Reason i'm asking is cause when you do this to a bass instrument ( bass synth/gtr or low pad or even a kick) you get lots of ringing as the Q is very high???
I do when I use such a high Q factor - what I do is find the ugly resonance and cut with a Q of 15 to 20 - there is no ringing.

Not criticizing mate cause i have found your posts always good nd informative
Old 9th August 2008
  #48
FBM
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Quote b karv: Also what is the best volume to mix at?
Hi b karv,
I would use a moderate level not to low but really not high, you could calibrate your monitors and measure the level with a db(SPL) meter but when you mix on a moderate level and now and then listen how it sounds on a high level I think your oké

Hi Get, You have a good point! But never noticed any ringing artefact's that where to much. My experience tells me better do some narrow cuts then leave those feedback/resonance peaks and then
boost them or leave them like they are. Most of the time people are boosting kicks, bass and other audio parts with EQing/Comp. and at the same time amplifying the artefact's that are still in the audio part, because they did not remove them. ( I find that effect worse then some ringing!)
That's why I prefer cutting instead of boosting and when you listen to the two kick samples I treated with a Q of 100 they sound really clean and tight. The ringing all depends on the type of EQ you use of course and the audio your dealing with. I find less artefact's in my real recordings then VST and sample stuff. And about a wider Q I use that on the higher freq, because I want to keep my sound and it's soul.

And this is not a invention I did. I learned it from a Waves OPENMIX Interactive Course some years ago.
The Trance Experience By DJ/Producer Torsten Fassbender. It's about mixing/remixing and the production of Dance Music in general.

Nice music you make!!!

Greets David
Old 9th August 2008
  #49
Gear Maniac
 
Ged Leitch's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by FBM View Post
Quote b karv: Also what is the best volume to mix at?
Hi b karv,
I would use a moderate level not to low but really not high, you could calibrate your monitors and measure the level with a db meter but when you mix on a moderate level and now and then listen how it sounds on a high level I think your oké

Hi Get, You have a good point! But never noticed any ringing artefact's that where to much. My experience tells me better do some narrow cuts then leave those feedback/resonance peaks and then
boost them or leave them like they are. Most of the time people are boosting kicks, bass and other audio parts with EQing/Comp. and at the same time amplifying the artefact's that are still in the audio part, because they did not remove them. ( I find that effect worse then some ringing!)
That's why I prefer cutting instead of boosting and when you listen to the two kick samples I treated with a Q of 100 they sound really clean and tight. The ringing all depends on the type of EQ you use of course and the audio your dealing with. I find less artefact's in my real recordings then VST and sample stuff. And about a wider Q I use that on the higher freq, because I want to keep my sound and it's soul.

And this is not a invention I did. I learned it from a Waves OPENMIX Interactive Course some years ago.
The Trance Experience By DJ/Producer Torsten Fassbender. It's about mixing/remixing and the production of Dance Music in general.

Nice music you make!!!

Greets David
Wow, thanks man - if you mean the track on the myspace page thats still being mixed as I type!! thats a "Working mix" but the tune is finished - im happy with it.

Yeh the TRANCE EXPIRIENCE course is fantastic - i have it and learned tons from it

Yeh about boosting - well, i never do it on bass ( below 100hz ) cause to me using a really great kick sample ( i like to use any source - acoustic or drum machine) that has the punch and its got to have generous amounts of 90 - 100hz to start with is what i prefer.
I simply low cut any crud i dont need - wide Q cut on any honkyness and use waves RBASS tuned to the fundamental of my song.Very happy with this method.
Old 9th August 2008
  #50
FBM
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Hi Get, Yes what I like about your mix/track on My-Space is that at the time you start thinking "is this guy for real?!" You turn the filter open and the low frequencies are kicking in. I like the funky, disco and spacey sound. What filter do you use??!!!
David
Old 9th August 2008
  #51
Gear Maniac
 
Ged Leitch's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by FBM View Post
Hi Get, Yes what I like about your mix/track on My-Space is that at the time you start thinking "is this guy for real?!" You turn the filter open and the low frequencies are kicking in. I like the funky, disco and spacey sound. What filter do you use??!!!
David
heh heh - thats the effect I wanted - i guess its very cliched but I dont care cause I like how it sounds.

All i did was - in Cubase SX - bounce 8 bars of the main section of music >
import it into its own channel as a "Loop" and copied it three times.
so theres a few bars of one processed loop - a few bars of the same loop processed slightly differently and so on till it kicks in.

I used ohm force "ohm my god" filter and TC Filtrator AND cubase bitcrusher at 12bits on type II mode - along with trusty old cubase reverb A on a basic room setting to give the loops a bit of life and movement.

Tell you what i'm actually uploading the FINISHED mix as I type - give me about 10 minutes and take a listen and check out the second track too.
Old 9th August 2008
  #52
Gear Maniac
 

I would try a steep high pass filter at 30-45 hz.
Old 9th August 2008
  #53
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Getafix's Avatar
 

I make dance music as well & FBM's advice is spot on. Notching out frequencies is absolutely essential to get a good bass sound as well.
Old 10th August 2008
  #54
Gear Nut
 

Thanks again Dave.

Ok, I come to grips with quality of my samples and look for news ones.

Came across these(and download them) which sound pretty high quality in my opinion.
Tape808

I going to give layering 2 kicks ago which I hope will give me more control than just using 1 kick with the LnMb.

I going to try a punchy kick with short decay and fast attack for the high end and probably one of the Tr808 sample for lowend tuned to my track with a slower attack but reasonable decay.

A question to those who layer their kicks, for the punchy side would I still keep >30hz or would I need to cut more lowend off?
Again for the lowend what is a good starting point to cutoff the topend?
of course this will depend on sample but some tips would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again,

Karv
Old 10th August 2008
  #55
FBM
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Hi Get, sounds good! PM't you!

Hi b_karv, It all depends on the type of music and the kick (and it's *pitch). Most speakers can't handle freq. under 40/45 Hz. From my experience real low kicks don't work well and are fighting with the bass all the time. Like Get was saying earlier you can use the Waves RBass on your bass for examp. And I use a E6 lowc.(30 HZ) with the Uad1 Cambrige for low kicks and average kicks(around 100 Hz) a gentle lowcut going down from 80 Hz to 20 Hz. (Like my earlier Q10 examp.)
This is no rule I always listen to what is going on and then decide what to do!
You need good monitors, room-treatment or reference headphones to hear it. Personally I like to hear my kick and bass out of a monitor. But when the freq. resp. of your monitors doesn't go low enough it's better to use headphones, because they go much lower (as low as 5Hz sometimes) or use a sub-woofer.
Nice stuff those samples (sounds a bit to big for me! Makes it not easy to mix), but I would go for these:
TDMVol1
Same guy, But Tape Drum Machines vol:1 says on the website:
"No effects or processing were added" (Better!) First tech.EQ then layer and then process the whole.
Layering Tip: Cut what you don't need. You don't need more layers of the same freq. !Try to make different layers with different freq. ranges that works better. Same freq. layering can lead to strange side effects.
Cheers David
*I have attached a freq. scale so you can compare your notes with the freq. it represents and makes kick/bass layering easy, because now you know what your doing.
And when you go to the Voxengo website you can download SPAN a freeware measuring device to watch the frequencies:
***---.... Voxengo
Attached Files
Old 10th August 2008
  #56
Gear Nut
 

Thanks for chart and the tips, I will check the samples out. Yeah I have Voxengo...don't know if just its me but I found the response is better with this freeware vst than waves Freq. analyzer/

Ok, so I took everyones advice on layering and Daves eq/compression advice and reworked another track I thought I finished

Most of the mix was done in my headphones and occasionally checking on my monitors. I am pretty happy with the results so far, especially compared to my previous efforts....Also the mastering I did myself(LinMb and UAD Maximiser) so hopefully a pro-master could make something better out of it.

Anyway below are my results (ps the 2nd layer of the kick in this goes very low so it may lack bass on computer speakers), would really be grateful for any thoughts/suggestions.

www.pgmrefiners.com/images/HoldTight_by_KarvanJ.mp3


Karv
Old 10th August 2008
  #57
FBM
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Hi b_karv, Besides the timing of the Kick and snare (sometimes) the drum sounds start to sound better now. I would only use the break-beats at the intro and breaks and a 4/4 kick for the dance parts.

Better try to get your mix as good as possible before using anything like the LMB. My Advice:

MASTERING.

Don't even look at the LMB anymore!

1.Use a EQ and low-cut E6 (Cambridge/Q10) 33 Hz/40 Hz. And cut what's necessary on the other freq bands. If not necessary don't do it. Use a low pass filter slope going down from 17.000 Hz to 22.000 when necessary (keeps the needle in the record with club mixes/12" and eliminates sibilance)

2.Use the Waves Linear EQ, Uad1 Pultecpro or Uad1 precision EQ etc. for creative EQing .

3.Uad1 Multi-band if necessary! Sounds a 1000 times better then LMB but better don't use it when not needed.

4.UAd1 precision Maximizer Maximize gentle

5.Uad1 precision Limiter gentle to -0.2 db

As a alternative:
Start with 1 & 2 and use only the L2 or L3 of Waves (limit 3db!) to -0.2 db

Goodluck David
Old 10th August 2008
  #58
Gear Nut
 

Cheers for the listen..yeah funny that about the kick and snare I'm using battery so they should be in time. Maybe some midi notes are out of sync.

Cool looks like I was on the right track, i do have the cambridge on just cutting everything below 20hz.
I'm only using the linMb very lightly with a minimal threshold to try tighten things up.....but I would imagine the UAD multiband would sound better but just out of pocket atm!! I might try the C4 instead, I heard Eric Prydz is a fan of it.

Just of interest mate I'm guessing you have had a few tracks released, did you master them yourself or left sent it for professional mastering?

Thanks again
Old 10th August 2008
  #59
FBM
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Hi, Yes I mean some notes are not on the right spot. Concerning mastering in the beginning I would sent my tracks out for mastering, but after studying Mastering for years I started doing it my self.

Don't expect a miracle from multi-band comp/exp. When I started with mastering I would use as many plug-ins as possible. The temptation to stick in a device like Waves LMB and think you have full control over your mix is great. But it's much easier to Compres/EQ individual parts like kick, bass, leads etc. Use groups/bus tracks and treat them to get what you want.

Believe me when your mix doesn't sound great work on it until it sounds perfect! Then you don't need a LMB, because you already made your kick, bass and other parts like they have to be. Need more bass? Work on the bass. etc. Then when you only use some TechEQ, CreativeEQ, Maximizing and Limiting (see page 2 last post for the whole mastering story!) you get that real pro sound your looking for! Give it a try.

Cheers David
Old 10th August 2008
  #60
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I think the only thing that works for drums is hardware compression.
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