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MIDI chord progressions sets - The end of musicianship as we know it?
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #61
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Gothi's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomás Mulcahy View Post
you used the word "bible" pejoratively (gradus ad parnassum).
I did not lay any value in the expression, really, it is just a fact that there were not many other works than Gradus at the time to provide a basis for upcoming tonal geniuses like Bach and Mozart. Thus it became a bible. However, examining Palestrina's works, Fux's rejection of consecutive fifths was his own psychosis and certainly not Palestrina's, who used open intervals all the time. That unfounded rule made its way into common sense harmonization and has been discussed in lengthy books ever since. THAT was a bummer, all right
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #62
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by PuggaMahone View Post
Everyone's trying to make an easy buck leveraging something they can do, and everyone's angry about something. Bring those together, and you get a thread.
Sig. worthy for sure ... yet it's still an interesting thread ... go figure
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #63
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehightenor View Post
What are chords anyway - nothing even remotely special.

It's all about parts.

Plus it's just bizarre to have chords sets as in the absence of the melody, you can't select a chord as it has no function.

I'm with you - useful to a student of music, not useful for original creativity.
You fundamentally do not understand how great songs are written. While some songs start with the melody, that melody has a harmonic underpinning (or several since most melodies can be voiced differently from their most common chord structures). If you can't play the chords to a song on either an acoustic guitar or piano, then that "song" is just a collection of riffs (or worse, a series of electronic sound FX). That drivel will never stand the test of time.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #64
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Style Guide View Post
You fundamentally do not understand how great songs are written. While some songs start with the melody, that melody has a harmonic underpinning (or several since most melodies can be voiced differently from their most common chord structures). If you can't play the chords to a song on either an acoustic guitar or piano, then that "song" is just a collection of riffs (or worse, a series of electronic sound FX). That drivel will never stand the test of time.
Yes, you have me, I fundamentally do not understand how songs are written

Though I've been a professional jazz/contemporary pianist and vocalist for 35 years and an professional musician 41 years, since turning pro when I was 16 (I was originally trained as a jazz and big band drummer - I've been at it a while - worn so many different hats!)

I've been paid to write and arrange more projects than I can remember.
Plus a couple of orchestral works too - lot's of chords in that I can tell you

Oh, and many albums of my own played by a kick ass backing band (of my own) who I write for - apparently they think I can write great songs :-)

But yes, you're right it's all drivel that won't stand the test of time .... you're spot on.

I'm afraid it might just be you who have completely missed the point I was making about chord function and melodic relationship, I wasn't alluding to chord substitution be it chromatic, tritone or parallel modal, I was simply saying chords and melody are best composed as a unified approach, though of course strumming an acoustic or vamping on a keyboard and improving a tune across the top is nice at times.

But, if folk want to write songs with cookie cutter chord "progressions" of course that's their choice.

I was simply agreeing with the OP - it's more dumbing down of musicianship - but I'm old school - I accept that.

Good luck with your music

Last edited by thehightenor; 4 weeks ago at 10:06 AM..
Old 4 weeks ago
  #65
If you collaborated with folks they might send you some progression etc as their contribution...just look at it like that. If the end product is what youre looking at or you hit a bit of a block then maybe theyre what youre looking for. Many daws and standalones like the akais suggest progressions (you can even add your own as templates), controllers like the launchpad have great chord modes..hell our vintage synths have had chord modes since whenever, surely thats "cheating" as well? Let alone all the play in scale stuff we have nowadays. And what are these arrangers all about...make a chord and an entire band plays along
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #66
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehightenor View Post
But, if folk want to write songs with cookie cutter chord "progressions" of course that's their choice.

How cookie cutter are chord progressions? Ive seen software like scaler that look pretty complex, probably a lot more complex than anything I can manage by hand lol
Old 4 weeks ago
  #67
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horseface's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I think that expecting people to learn how to make music is the highest form of elitist music snobbery. What ever is wrong with just buying your way in and letting others do the hard work for you?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #68
Drum machines? What's the matter, you can't play drums yourself?
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #69
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by kcearl View Post
How cookie cutter are chord progressions? Ive seen software like scaler that look pretty complex, probably a lot more complex than anything I can manage by hand lol
Well, this is the EDM forum so I'm probably making references to more traditional song writing.

But for example I'm working on a song I'm very excited about at the moment and the verse is a tone higher than the chorus which I arrived at through a pivot chord. Then the verse uses chords from the Lydian scale as a modal substitute to create some expectancy then into another key for the pre chorus then another pivot chord back to the chorus which is a tone down, (but the melody lifts higher - a great musical contradiction) all without the listener sensing any obvious modulations.

You won't get this from a MIDI chord set - it's bespoke to the melody and lyrical direction - they used to call it being original
Old 4 weeks ago
  #70
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horseface's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
“EDM forum”
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #71
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jbuonacc's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehightenor View Post
... if folk want to write songs with cookie cutter chord "progressions" of course that's their choice.
uhh... there are hundreds/thousands of great songs with "cookie cutter chord progressions".

Quote:
... it's more dumbing down of musicianship - but I'm old school - I accept that.
plenty of "old school" guys made careers out of simple chord progressions and would probably laugh at your smug jazzy ass. don't try to pass off "old school" for "out-of-touch jazz snob".
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #72
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehightenor View Post
Well, this is the EDM forum so I'm probably making references to more traditional song writing.

But for example I'm working on a song I'm very excited about at the moment and the verse is a tone higher than the chorus which I arrived at through a pivot chord. Then the verse uses chords from the Lydian scale as a modal substitute to create some expectancy then into another key for the pre chorus then another pivot chord back to the chorus which is a tone down, (but the melody lifts higher - a great musical contradiction) all without the listener sensing any obvious modulations.

You won't get this from a MIDI chord set - it's bespoke to the melody and lyrical direction - they used to call it being original
I play some chords, I stick a bassline on it...and use the same rockbeat...thatll do me
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #73
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuonacc View Post
uhh... there are hundreds/thousands of great songs with "cookie cutter chord progressions".
Im not saying theyre all great (they were all hits though) 73 songs with the same four chords


https://www.buzzfeed.com/alanwhite/7...me-four-chords
Old 4 weeks ago
  #74
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🎧 10 years
I wonder if the people complaining about these tools (some of which are barely tools, when you get down to the long list of MIDI notes that seems to be included in something like a Unison chord pack) have actually tried to use them instead of just taking to the interwebz to complain about them?

Because I've tried a few and they are by and large a more miserable experience than just playing stuff in. Yeah, you might get some happy accidents and that is one reason to give something like Cthulhu a go but I've found the trial-and-error they often require just to be way more painful. Think about the number of times you'd have to import MIDI progressions into a DAW, play through a preset just to see if it stands a chance of working. Yeah, uh, no thanks.

But if they help someone get something done, I've got no problem with it.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #75
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🎧 15 years
Music production is really based more on taste anyway. Common sense tells us that you can hire a team of musicians to play on a record, tell them what to do and be credited as the producer.

Midi packs are just a version of that. Doesn’t mean the changes are that great and will vault your music to the next level. Thats where taste, ears, experience, etc comes in. These are things you can’t really fake with midi packs or ai.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #76
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZangTumblyTumble View Post
I wonder if the people complaining about these tools (some of which are barely tools, when you get down to the long list of MIDI notes that seems to be included in something like a Unison chord pack) have actually tried to use them instead of just taking to the interwebz to complain about them?

Because I've tried a few and they are by and large a more miserable experience than just playing stuff in. Yeah, you might get some happy accidents and that is one reason to give something like Cthulhu a go but I've found the trial-and-error they often require just to be way more painful. Think about the number of times you'd have to import MIDI progressions into a DAW, play through a preset just to see if it stands a chance of working. Yeah, uh, no thanks.

But if they help someone get something done, I've got no problem with it.
I use it for a point of reference. I know how to play keys too. It’s a way of seeing how else I can play an idea out. Also there’s times where I want to fine tune a synth patch. I let the midi events play and do my synth edits. I’m only born with two arms and these tools help me. Yes the midi pack commercials are annoying but will it help me write a song ?
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #77
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Tomás Mulcahy's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZangTumblyTumble View Post
I've tried a few and they are by and large a more miserable experience than just playing stuff in.
Same here. Miserable is an excellent description! The Unison packs are especially useless. Drier than any theory book I've ever seen!

I don't have a problem with them either, it's just the way these particular ones are marketed as I said earlier. I've used an OB Cyclone to get a lot of ideas, the arp in XPand and GMedia ImpOscar are a useful resource IME, and I'm currently playing about with a Casio CT-6000 (which has some truly bizarre patterns in it). All tools in the box.

Ever notice how kids always gravitate to the guitar or the piano, and just go for it? Make noise, explore. Experiment. More of that please. Like, you'll never see one gravitate to a mouse and piano roll.
Quote:
Originally Posted by horseface View Post
“EDM forum”
I also went wut.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #78
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jbuonacc's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomás Mulcahy View Post
... Ever notice how kids always gravitate to the guitar or the piano, and just go for it? Make noise, explore. Experiment. More of that please. Like, you'll never see one gravitate to a mouse and piano roll.


you guys are so lost.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #79
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by horseface View Post
“EDM forum”
I apologise, I didn't mean is a pejorative term, I have listened to electronic music since I was a teen.
I was rushing to back work and was sloppy with my terminology.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #80
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuonacc View Post
uhh... there are hundreds/thousands of great songs with "cookie cutter chord progressions".



plenty of "old school" guys made careers out of simple chord progressions and would probably laugh at your smug jazzy ass. don't try to pass off "old school" for "out-of-touch jazz snob".
Yes of course, I sometimes write tunes using cook book progressions and use the same four chords throughout the whole song.

In fact it helps force development into the melody, rhythm and lyric with you have harmonic restriction - it's useful compositional device.

And thank you for your insult, you tell it how it is!

I'll take "out-of-touch jazz snob" .... last week I was a "crusty old man" your insult feels like an upgrade

(Actually, just for the record, I made my money with good 'ole' rock 'n' roll but I was reluctant to say that as I just know I'll be back to "crusty old man" and "out-of-touch jazz snob" sounds so much better)

I was only agreeing with the OP - I think he made a very good point.

Not a lot more to add really.

I wish you good luck with your music making.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #81
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🎧 5 years
It’s not likely you are going to create a chord progression that’s never been heard before but anyway

I still write my own though...
Have no interest in packs like this.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #82
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This thread overestimates the relevance of having good new music. Just to go along with the thread.. please tell me OP: what disaster happens if going forward people will only listen to a combination of that has been made (good and bad) and new ‘derivative crap’?

Nothing happens. Pediod. People will continue to enjoy music because our brain just likes that stuff. Just like small kids and even some animals. We will get moved by certain tonal and rythmic combinations and it doesnt matter who made it.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #83
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by StupidDisco View Post
This thread overestimates the relevance of having good new music
Does that apply to books, films?

It seems a bit defeatist to me, the pursuit of originality is half the fun/challenge of creativity!
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kcearl View Post
How cookie cutter are chord progressions? Ive seen software like scaler that look pretty complex, probably a lot more complex than anything I can manage by hand lol
Scaler is actually pretty cool, I’m not an expert in it but it does an easy job of listening to what you are playing and then suggesting complimentary chords. You ever writing something and your just stuck looking for that one chord you can’t quite put your finger on? Scaler helps with that for me.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #85
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2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Packaged chord sets and musicianship are mutually exclusive.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #86
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Quantum7's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I can't wait for the Star Trek future. "Computer, write me a song....and make it worthy of a Grammy."
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Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #87
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuonacc View Post
your smug jazzy ass
I just woke the wife up laughing at that. Well done..

Old 4 weeks ago
  #88
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🎧 10 years
I think the interesting question is where is the exact point where people can generally all agree that somebody is considered to be doing f**k all and taking the piss a bit?

My personal line dividing ‘worthy music creator’ and ‘lazy dilettante piss taker’ changes with the weather, but always swings towards the ‘making an effort’ side of things more often than not.

I think the culture of what is considered creative has softened a lot in the last few years. For example, interior designers seem to be more like ‘shoppers’ and ‘choosers’ and ‘assemblers’ or ‘curators’ guided by trends in architectural digest or Pinterest these days vs somebody who puts pencil to paper and pours years of training, knowledge, instinct and good taste into a scratch built design which they take from concept to drawing to rendering to execution. Why waste time learning to do all that when a google image search mood board will do, Grandad?

At what point is somebody not really creating (whatever that is?) and just signing their name to something they probably shouldn’t be taking credit for?
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #89
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by horseface View Post
I just woke the wife up laughing at that. Well done..
that's what i'm here for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horseface View Post
I think the interesting question is where is the exact point where people can generally all agree that somebody is considered to be doing f**k all and taking the piss a bit? ... At what point is somebody not really creating (whatever that is?) and just signing their name to something they probably shouldn’t be taking credit for?
i wouldn't even say that chord designers, etc are the problem, but this sort of thing is as bad as it's ever been. never before has pretty much everybody had access to a million genre-specific/chopped/compressed/timestretched/radio-ready loops that they can just assemble together like Lego. it's an an "easy bake song maker", your grandmother could be creating a modern twist on 70s soft rock on her laptop while tipping back a few out at the pool. all it takes is a Splice subscription and a dream, you don't even need to curate/sample/sequence a thing. just pop it in the ingredients in the oven and go back to making sure you haven't missed any alerts on your new phone.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #90
Gear Nut
 
2021 sure is different from
any other year we have known
no?
midi chord progressions are a tool
no?
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