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Maschine standalone - Maschine+ is here!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1831
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KickDrum's Avatar
Just pre-ordered mine!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1832
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Champ View Post
I didn't say VST, I said plugins. M+ doesn't run full Reaktor, just a limited version, It doesn't run full Kontakt etc. either and never will.



LOL. At 3k It should offer way more CPU power, more RAM, quality OLED displays, more i/o connectivity, more controls etc. just to name a few things.

You can buy a MacBook Pro i7 from 5/6 years ago under 500,- (a Windows laptop for even less) and buy Maschine software with controller. This offers more for less. The only thing you'll be missing is a limited way of working standalone.
by your logic, every standalone groovebox/sampler is trash then.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1833
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leanass View Post
by your logic, every standalone groovebox/sampler is trash then.
I really shouldn't respond to these type of messages from hipsters thinking they know more. Go on and buy your next new shiny thing while the rest that really cares talks about quality and usability.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1834
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Methlab View Post
For sure. Im looking forward to diving into this MK3. I should have it tomorrow. And then the update to the software is right around the corner
cool, looking forward to hearing your experiences! Picking up my mk3 on Monday...woohoo!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1835
Lives for gear
 
jm2c's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DStep ATL View Post
I have to say I’ve been checking this thread almost every waking hour since I preordered the morning it was announced. Can’t wait until it ships hopefully end of next week.
Lucky man! Mine doesnt ship until Oct 1, but I did pay extra for 24 hour delivery

As a double bonus - the next force OS supposedly drops within a month from the M+. Then we'll both have to divide our attention between the two

I suppose the SD card will be compatible with both force and M+ so as to facilitate easier sample transfer between the two (thinking about being able to use the fx of both for my files without extra DA/AD conversions).

There will be actual synergy benefits for having both. Both boxes can MIDI sequence each other, both support Ableton link, both can process each others audio output and/or loop capture audio.. You can even use the force for converting exported stems from a M+ project into an Ableton project file, and if you pipe in the MIDI from the M+, you'll even be able to include the MIDI data inside the als project. Ok, admittedly a clunky way to do it, but might prove to be a useful backup option in some circumstances.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1836
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by basehead617 View Post
For people who might have been underwhelmed by Maschine in the past, maybe an older version.. or their idea of what it is.. I highly recommend the Trutorials playlists on NI's YouTube channel - especially if you work backwards (because the earliest ones are on very old controllers).

They have a lot of interesting techniques showcased and things you may not have thought of that it can do.
cool, tnx!

Also liked these, a little different and more creative from the typical "boom tsk bap" or "boom clap boom clap" videos

This one about creating "evolving" sounds:



and this one to achieve fx like Roland's scatter using the touch strip and chords:

Old 4 weeks ago
  #1837
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsxdsm View Post
Good q. I think there are a ton of things they want to do with clips (and probably are going to watch the community closely to see how they respond/request), but I don’t have my hopes up - NI is good at getting v1 out and then moving attention elsewhere. Audio module has a ton of stuff that could be added. Same for the sampler. Same for jam. I think clips are great at what they do now but can do so much more, just an 50/50 on native instruments investing there vs other things. And to be fair, there’s a ton of high priority things they really need to focus on outside of clips.

Good question re: why patterns and clips. Honestly, I love the pattern based workflow. Similar to FL studio - I love being able to have one unit that as I duplicate is linked such that my edits apply everywhere. I think patterns and scenes and sections work really really well together to build full songs very quickly.

However, the huge downside with patterns is doing any unique variations and cross screen transitions or fills. Clips solves that in a way that’s smart. Build your base song with patterns quickly then you can use clips for details. I like it.

With that being said, you could completely avoid patterns and just use clips now if you want. I think some people will prefer that - some folks hate patterns and having to make things unique to make variations. Different flows. I don’t like my parts being disconnected (if I need to change the snare timing I hate having to go through 50 different clips - I want to do it once).

But...NI didn’t have to create clips. If they just made patterns more powerful, such that patterns could cross scene boundaries, that would have worked well too - but probably would have been terribly difficult on the hardware.
it's clear to me NI developers are very much into OO programming, the way they link/refer to patterns instead of making each of them unique (Ableton style).

Anyway, what I learned from the NI Maschine forum is that Clips could be basically a replacement for Patterns, but due to technical reasons, I guess mainly backwards compatibility and maybe some software-based architectural designs.

I think for new projects/users it might make sense to work a lot with Clips instead of patterns...but some way to step out of the "quantised" blocks of patterns was needed, and Clips seem like an elegant way.

IF they are able to keep the hardware workflow logical and intuitive. I'm wondering how that will work...
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1838
Gear Nut
 
antic604's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bungle View Post
Sigh
So it isn't the full version as you stated, OK, got ya, now how do you know so much about the internals of this device, are you another member of NI staff flouting the rules here ?
I think it's very simple, at least for Kontakt or Reaktor:
- it's "full version" when we talk about the actual plugin code, i.e. how it generates the sound, which features it has, etc.; it's possible that the quality is lower, because VST plugins are/can be oversampled and this might not be available
- it's "limited" in terms of how you're gonna be able use it in practice.

This is because - like with most VSTs - one patch will take 1% of the CPU, whereas another will take 20-30%. This is very clear for Reaktor. With Kontakt there's additional layer of required RAM, where some patches require 10MB, whereas others need gigabytes.

So for Kontakt & Reaktor NI decided, that even if techically they're the same plugins that you have on your computer, they're gonna limit YOU to be able to access only a curated list of patches, that take reasonable amount of CPU and RAM, so that you could run say 8 instances on M+.

This is not the case with Massive, FM8 or Monark that are much more uniform in how much CPU they need (and RAM usage is always the same) and therefore you'll very likely be able to prepare your own patches pre-define macro controls for them on a computer, and import them to M+. Although it this case you might also argue it's not "full" plugin, because you don't have the whole GUI and access to parameters that are not exposed by VST to DAW, but are visible on screen.

I think all of this is pretty self-explanatory and obvious for anyone who has any clue about computers and software.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1839
Gear Nut
 
antic604's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by olafmol View Post
it's clear to me NI developers are very much into OO programming, the way they link/refer to patterns instead of making each of them unique (Ableton style).
I don't think it has anything to do with OO programming, really. Linked clips were present already in the DAWs in 90's and nowoadays most DAWs have them - Cubase, Studio One, FL, DP, etc.

Ableton chose to not do them on purpose, they actualy said it's an ADVANTAGE of th software that clips between session and arranger view are independent (it's in one of the product videos). The idea that it's a good thing was so ingrained, that when some devs left Ableton to develop Bitwig they did the same. I still can't understand the thinking behind it and hope at least Bitwig comes around
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1840
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by jm2c View Post
As a double bonus - the next force OS supposedly drops within a month from the M+.
New Force update drops in a month? Where did you hear that?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1841
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by antic604 View Post
I don't think it has anything to do with OO programming, really. Linked clips were present already in the DAWs in 90's and nowoadays most DAWs have them - Cubase, Studio One, FL, DP, etc.
I know, I was around then But remember, OO programming principles also became very popular during the 90's. So personally I don't think it's a coincidence that these linked patterns and OO programming started to appear during the same time.

But anyway, doesn't really matter. I like the principle. For me it makes sense to have "objects" that can be referred to, and when I change them they are changed everywhere. And I can overload/overrule them at a higher level.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1842
Gear Nut
 
antic604's Avatar
Can anyone point me to equally short but similarly exhaustive video explaining the core concepts & workflow of Maschine?

NI page is surprisingly bad about this :(

Old 4 weeks ago
  #1843
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by antic604 View Post
Can anyone point me to equally short but similarly exhaustive video explaining the core concepts & workflow of Maschine?

NI page is surprisingly bad about this :(







etc.

Playlist https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIes...=RDCIesgFa6zt8
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1844
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jm2c's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by KriticalMass View Post
New Force update drops in a month? Where did you hear that?
from the force thread obvs, check nicethings's most recent posts
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1845
Gear Nut
 
antic604's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by olafmol View Post
Thank you!!!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1846
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by jm2c View Post
from the force thread obvs, check nicethings's most recent posts
No, not obvs at all. Though nicehings may well be taking part in the beta, and provide useful YouTube tutorials, his comments are like anyone else’s on that thread - guesswork. Look back through his history and you’ll see that he has a history of making statements like this, that create the impression that he is a privileged insider with info straight from akai.

As kcearl comments after the post you are referring to, one minute he’s saying the beta is far from prime time, next he’s seems to say the opposite.

So - unfortunately the reality remains that it could be many months yet before we see the new force firmware drop.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1847
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by antic604 View Post
Can anyone point me to equally short but similarly exhaustive video explaining the core concepts & workflow of Maschine?

NI page is surprisingly bad about this :(

Thank you so much for the MPC video, hopefully NI or someone will make a similar for Maschine . It’s hard to watch those standalone videos since I never had the software and have no clue how MK3 works
There are plenty tutorials ,but I want an all in one video describing the structure of Maschine and preview functions

So far I narrowed to


Playlist
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...-gDGLbKQ1_bdZU

Last edited by korakios; 4 weeks ago at 12:15 PM.. Reason: Edit link, added playlist
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1848
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by antic604 View Post
Ableton chose to not do them on purpose, they actualy said it's an ADVANTAGE of th software that clips between session and arranger view are independent (it's in one of the product videos). The idea that it's a good thing was so ingrained, that when some devs left Ableton to develop Bitwig they did the same. I still can't understand the thinking behind it and hope at least Bitwig comes around
I'm actually wondering if you could explain why you think linked patterns are such a good thing?

In my experience it leads to very boring, repetitive music by default and when i still was in Maschine land the first thing i did was change the setting to duplicate pattern when duplicating scenes.

So i wouldn't say one thing is better than the other, it's just a different abstraction / way of thinking and users should ideally have a choice. But in terms of workflow, opinionated grooveboxes are usually more efficient because people pick them to a have a more streamlined approach, otherwise they can stick to the DAW.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1849
Here for the gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by hugoclubs View Post
This is just the beginning. It is normal that it starts slow. Go back and watch the first versions of a plain, television, computers, calculators...
Your analogy is off, this isn't the first standalone groovebox/midi center/whatever so people will have expectations on what they can do with a unit like this.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1850
Gear Nut
 
antic604's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by uly81 View Post
I'm actually wondering if you could explain why you think linked patterns are such a good thing?

In my experience it leads to very boring, repetitive music by default...
Like it or not, a lot of popular music genres rely on repetitive MIDI patterns and most of the interesting stuff - and even actual arrangement - is the result of sound design and FX modulation. So a techno or trance track can have the same 16-step bassline MIDI pattern going for 5 minutes, but the actual progression is achieved by modulating synthesis parameters and treating the sound with FX.

Now let's say you want to change few notes in that 16-step pattern, then you need to go and replace every clip over the 5 minutes duration. Now expand this to drums, pads, audio effects, vocals (if there are any), etc.

EDIT: Obviously this assumes automation & modulation is separate from MIDI and is not linked, so I can have 1 bar clip repeated & linked 16 times and independent filter modulation for 16 bars. I suppose they aren't separate in Maschine?

But even in more freestyle genres you'll have things that repeat and it's just easier to change one and have every instance updated.

And it's a 'good thing' to have choice. You never ever have to use them if you don't want to
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1851
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by KriticalMass View Post
The Deluge can... so it’s perhaps not as out of the question as you so forcefully suggest?
The deluge can run Kontakt libraries?
So it has Kontakt inside?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1852
Gear Nut
 
antic604's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by MpcMc View Post
The deluge can run Kontakt libraries?
So it has Kontakt inside?
Deluge cas STREAM from SD Card :D
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1853
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by antic604 View Post
Deluge cas STREAM from SD Card :D
Ok. That doesn't mean it can run Kontakt Libraries.
I took some kontakt libraries, extracted the samples and made keygroups on Mpc.
That doesn't mean I pretend to be using Kontakt on Mpc.
So what are we talking about?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1854
Lives for gear
 
telecode's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by olafmol View Post
it's clear to me NI developers are very much into OO programming, the way they link/refer to patterns instead of making each of them unique (Ableton style).

Anyway, what I learned from the NI Maschine forum is that Clips could be basically a replacement for Patterns, but due to technical reasons, I guess mainly backwards compatibility and maybe some software-based architectural designs.

I think for new projects/users it might make sense to work a lot with Clips instead of patterns...but some way to step out of the "quantised" blocks of patterns was needed, and Clips seem like an elegant way.

IF they are able to keep the hardware workflow logical and intuitive. I'm wondering how that will work...
it would be very bad to remove patterns out of maschine.lots of advanced users would rebel. i dont think it will happen.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1855
Im thinking FM8 and Massive on standalone could mean a return of brostep in 2021...the only thing that could make us nostalgic for 2020!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1856
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by MpcMc View Post
The deluge can run Kontakt libraries?
So it has Kontakt inside?
No mate, not sure if you're being snarky or not, but in case you're asking me that for real - it cannot run Kontakt libraries. I never suggested otherwise.

I was responding to the comment that someone else made that implied that it was unreasonable to want the M+ to load massive orchestral libraries because no groovebox out there has the technical capability to do so, when in fact the Deluge does - limited only by the capacity of the SD card that the multisample is streaming from.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1857
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by KriticalMass View Post
No mate, not sure if you're being snarky or not, but in case you're asking me that for real - it cannot run Kontakt libraries. I never suggested otherwise.

I was responding to the comment that someone else made that implied that it was unreasonable to want the M+ to load massive orchestral libraries because no groovebox out there has the technical capability to do so, when in fact the Deluge does - limited only by the capacity of the SD card that the multisample is streaming from.
Are you sure you can run gb of multisampled libraries on deluge?
Does it have sample layers?
Can the processor handle so many high quality samples at the same time?
Do you realize some Kontakt libraries have many samples running even if you just make a C piano note?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1858
Gear Nut
 
antic604's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by MpcMc View Post
Ok. That doesn't mean it can run Kontakt Libraries.
I took some kontakt libraries, extracted the samples and made keygroups on Mpc.
That doesn't mean I pretend to be using Kontakt on Mpc.
So what are we talking about?
Well, I wasn't part of that particular discussion, but from what I see it was about why M+ or MPC do not have streaming, whereas less powerful Deluge has.

I don't think streaming has anyhting to do with being able to use Kontakt or not, as is evident with M+ offering (a limited version of) it. Streaming doesn't make sense for instrument like Kontakt, because you can't predict what notes & expression switches are gonna be pressed next to buffer them. Streaming is very viable for longer audio files, like vocals, ambient background, recorded instrument parts (like solos), etc. that are firmly planted in arrangement, i.e. are always triggered in the same way and you don't want to waste RAM to keep a full file in there.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1859
Quote:
Originally Posted by KriticalMass View Post
No, not obvs at all. Though nicehings may well be taking part in the beta, and provide useful YouTube tutorials, his comments are like anyone else’s on that thread - guesswork. Look back through his history and you’ll see that he has a history of making statements like this, that create the impression that he is a privileged insider with info straight from akai.

As kcearl comments after the post you are referring to, one minute he’s saying the beta is far from prime time, next he’s seems to say the opposite.

So - unfortunately the reality remains that it could be many months yet before we see the new force firmware drop.
I dont know what version of the beta Tom was playing with but the most recent one, the one with ALS import and fx racks, is very close to a release version...Id guess it will be released before the end of October. And its a blinding update...Ive been using the basic arranger from the earlier leaked beta but the new version with the editing on the same page is exactly what Ive been waiting for, multi midi works as expected too (usb hubs on there way)

Maschine + looks like a solid entry into the standalone market but it really doesnt compete with the updated Force, and I dont think it was ever meant to.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1860
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telecode's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by antic604 View Post
Well, I wasn't part of that particular discussion, but from what I see it was about why M+ or MPC do not have streaming, whereas less powerful Deluge has.

I don't think streaming has anyhting to do with being able to use Kontakt or not, as is evident with M+ offering (a limited version of) it. Streaming doesn't make sense for instrument like Kontakt, because you can't predict what notes & expression switches are gonna be pressed next to buffer them. Streaming is very viable for longer audio files, like vocals, ambient background, recorded instrument parts (like solos), etc. that are firmly planted in arrangement, i.e. are always triggered in the same way and you don't want to waste RAM to keep a full file in there.
Kontakt and Reaktor player has to be ported before the libraries can be run. Have any of the YouTubers shown either of those on the M+ video they made yet?

FWIW.. I am bewildered by the number of people on this thread who have never used Maschine or a MK controller and are just jumping out and pre-ordering a M+ at > $1000. That's pretty hard core. :-)
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