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Roland, Korg and GAK fined, how is this going to effect us?
Old 5 days ago
  #1
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TornadoTed's Avatar
Roland, Korg and GAK fined, how is this going to effect us?

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/m...ompetition-law

So Roland, Korg and GAK have been fined. How do people think this is going to effect prices and manufacturers going forward?Seems particularly relevant to us as Korg and Roland are such big players in the synth World.
Old 5 days ago
  #2
Gear Addict
 

Interesting. That article seems to say that Yamaha saved it's own bacon by snitching on the others and in particular on GAK (retailer) who they themselves were leaning on to price fix Yamaha gear. Bizarre!

So in theory we should see retailers exercising a bit more freedom to compete on Yamaha, Roland and Korg products.
Old 5 days ago
  #3
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syntonica's Avatar
Online prices will go down, brick and mortars will suffer...
Old 5 days ago
  #4
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Snitches get stitches. The Korg Triads, Roland Analogue Mafia, and Yamaha Yakuza will fight each other - in vicious online price wars, and in the court of public opinion. They will all be weakened. Meanwhile, Behringer sits in his hollowed-out volcano island lair, stroking Octave, his cloned cat.
Old 5 days ago
  #5
Pretty sure the only thing its going to effect is Roland and Korg will stop ripping people off and make what $10k less a year?
Old 5 days ago
  #6
WDM
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I am not sure how "online discounting" should work by law, but I know that Roland, Korg products usually are never on sale and the price is pretty much the same as in any store.

What's "online discounting" even means?

As a buyer, you get pretty much "sealed box" from the manufacturer, whether it's online or in store. For some online stores I've seen they put price even higher than MSRP. It's not hard to guess also that some online retailers are shipping from the same (hidden) physical store (a la amazon fulfillment).

Moreover, online retailers didn't collect interstate taxes until recently, so that was already lucrative for them, and that was advantage for buyers to save on taxes, versus local stores.

What is it all about? Someone wants to drive local stores completely out of business or something?
Old 5 days ago
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WDM View Post
I am not sure how "online discounting" should work by law, but I know that Roland, Korg products usually are never on sale and the price is pretty much the same as in any store.

What's "online discounting" even means?

As a buyer, you get pretty much "sealed box" from the manufacturer, whether it's online or in store. For some online stores I've seen they put price even higher than MSRP. It's not hard to guess also that some online retailers are shipping from the same (hidden) physical store (a la amazon fulfillment).

Moreover, online retailers didn't collect interstate taxes until recently, so that was already lucrative for them, and that was advantage for buyers to save on taxes, versus local stores.

What is it all about? Someone wants to drive local stores completely out of business or something?
In the U.S., it’s sort of “nudge nudge, wink wink.” You can certainly call up one of the big online retailers and pay the full asking price—but if you dig in and start grinding them, or have a good relationship with a sales rep, the price can fall.

btw, the big internet stores definitely collect tax now, and have been for months. “No tax” is long gone and won’t be back.

Last edited by percussion boy; 5 days ago at 07:48 PM.. Reason: typo
Old 5 days ago
  #8
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Stores can choose to sell many products below MSRP that may still be above their cost to carry the item(s). Stores can also choose to sell below cost (some restrictions apply) if they're willing to take a loss - for marketing or whatever reasons.

Not allowing stores to do that takes away flexibility to respond to the market and their customers.
Old 5 days ago
  #9
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Muser's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ntropic View Post
Interesting. That article seems to say that Yamaha saved it's own bacon by snitching on the others and in particular on GAK (retailer) who they themselves were leaning on to price fix Yamaha gear. Bizarre!
.
if Yamaha admitted to it and then start to be questioned about what they know, then lie about what they know and are found out for lying, that would probably be more Bizarre.
Old 5 days ago
  #10
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re

i think Fender had a similar issue a few months ago too
Old 5 days ago
  #11
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In the US it annoys me that all of the internet retailers list the same price which is I assume some kind of agreement with the manufacturers regarding MAP (Minimum Advertised Price). You'll notice some retailers try to get around this with selling used, or B Stock items on Reverb and eBay which are often brand new. I think this is why they also offer coupons. My general rule of thumb is to pay 15% off list for any purchase of size.
Old 5 days ago
  #12
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Rogue Ai's Avatar
Wouldn't effect me at all since I'm in the US... lol
Old 5 days ago
  #13
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VennD68's Avatar
Yep, Fender, Yamaha (in conjunction with GAK), Korg, Casio and Roland UK all involved in similar practices.
Old 5 days ago
  #14
Quote:
Originally Posted by trick fall View Post
In the US it annoys me that all of the internet retailers list the same price which is I assume some kind of agreement with the manufacturers regarding MAP (Minimum Advertised Price). You'll notice some retailers try to get around this with selling used, or B Stock items on Reverb and eBay which are often brand new. I think this is why they also offer coupons. My general rule of thumb is to pay 15% off list for any purchase of size.
Do you really think of some selling new items as b stock as I swear Ive had this twice? The first time they emailed me and asked if I want to spend a bit more and get a new item...I said no and got what looked new to me. The second time they did the same but it was already on it's way so how could they...again it arrived in new condition

Never had any other supplier do this
Old 5 days ago
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kcearl View Post
Do you really think of some selling new items as b stock as I swear Ive had this twice? The first time they emailed me and asked if I want to spend a bit more and get a new item...I said no and got what looked new to me. The second time they did the same but it was already on it's way so how could they...again it arrived in new condition

Never had any other supplier do this
I've had it happen with multiple shops, both through Reverb and Ebay and their own websites. I'm convinced it's because of MAP.
Old 5 days ago
  #16
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enossified's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TornadoTed View Post
How do people think this is going to effect prices and manufacturers going forward?
No effect whatsoever IMHO. Laws vary from country to country, but the issue in the article is not allowing dealers to advertise prices online below a certain minimmum.

Many dealers will usually haggle, both eBay and Reverb have "make an offer" options built in. I've used that before and gotten significant discounts off the advertised price.

P.S. here in the USA, Rickenbacker guitars does not alllow online dealers to advertise prices at all. That appears to be totally legal, since they've been doing it for years.
Old 5 days ago
  #17
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Rogue Ai's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by enossified View Post
No effect whatsoever IMHO. Laws vary from country to country, but the issue in the article is not allowing dealers to advertise prices online below a certain minimmum.

Many dealers will usually haggle, both eBay and Reverb have "make an offer" options built in. I've used that before and gotten significant discounts off the advertised price.

P.S. here in the USA, Rickenbacker guitars does not alllow online dealers to advertise prices at all. That appears to be totally legal, since they've been doing it for years.
It's not just online Rickenbacker guitars all say "call" where the price should be in the Sweetwater catalog (aka my bathroom reading material).
Old 5 days ago
  #18
WDM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by percussion boy View Post
In the U.S., it’s sort of “nudge nudge, wink wink.” You can certainly call up one of the big online retailers and pay the full asking price—but if you dig in and start grinding them, or have a good relationship with a sales rep, the price can fall..
Right, I usually can get a discount in local store as well, despite what label says...

I mean, it's different if some online stores ask regular price but you can still get a deal, versus they put the price well below others but they don't have it in stock, and never ship it to you...
Old 5 days ago
  #19
WDM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camus2 View Post
LOL, Roland, Korg? REKT. ****ing vampires. Look at their gear, built like crap, seriously look at the JD-XA for instance, yes, great sound, great specifications but what is that build quality? Same with the MC707,101,JDX-I, Jupiter Xm, they aren't professional products BECAUSE of the materials Roland chose in order to cut cost. And then Roland, Korg and co rig prices like that? F. them. Very happy they are getting fined. Not enough though.
Oh please... Roland never fails. Whether you like or not it's a different story tho, but the quality is good, if not the best. Korg sets the bar too...
Old 5 days ago
  #20
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Uncle Dieppe's Avatar
 

Well Something nefarious has been going on with GAK for a while,they have been selling Kronos B Stock Models and refurbished models,way above the Price of a new model,so how does that work???

They should also investigate a few other UK retailers,for price fixing there are couple who's prices are not competitive and although they have items in stock they price well above the average and give the usual we can't discount Bull****,because they use the excuse that other retailers don't have them in stock.

It will be interesting to see if GAK manage to survive with a 250k fine under their belt,I dare say in the current climate that is going to be a huge burden for any MIR,in a hugely competitive small market,if your going to engage in ripping people off,then I have no sympathy.

The 3 big names should be ashamed of themselves too..I have often felt all 3 players workstations have been hugely overinflated for a long time,the top workstations never used to cost more than the usual £1500 for the base model when I was buying workstations,Now the base model is an additional Grand for the same model a few years on,yet build reliability and component cost have gone down the pan dramatically and they are being built in lower cost labour China as opposed to Japan.
Old 5 days ago
  #21
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Hopefully this is just a UK distributor thing, and not something wider in industry... somehow suspect the latter though.
Old 5 days ago
  #22
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TornadoTed's Avatar
The UK government seem to be going after the industry hard, sending out 70 warning letters.
Old 5 days ago
  #23
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touched's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kcearl View Post
Do you really think of some selling new items as b stock as I swear Ive had this twice? The first time they emailed me and asked if I want to spend a bit more and get a new item...I said no and got what looked new to me. The second time they did the same but it was already on it's way so how could they...again it arrived in new condition

Never had any other supplier do this
I think I know the vendor, but will be nice and not name (P). They always do this to me and I fall for it with great suspicion. Last time I didn't get back to them right away and after I gave the go ahead to upgrade from B-stock, I see it had been picked up by the shipper already.
Old 5 days ago
  #24
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TornadoTed's Avatar
The whole B Stock thing must be a bit of nightmare for retailers. If there is a pretty small profit margin on an item anyway then having to then discount it further must sting when it is essentially new, maybe unpacked and played for an hour or two.

I always feel bad returning stuff but I have no choice really when I don't have a local physical store to go and try stuff out at. As bricks and mortar stores disappear and more goes online it's only going to increase the problem.
Old 5 days ago
  #25
Gear Nut
 

At least they sell as b-stock or open box and you receive new. Here in the US a major retailer sells as new and you have a high chance that you receive an open box or used item!
Old 5 days ago
  #26
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enossified's Avatar
B stock has actually led to some great deals for me.

In one case, I got a significant discount on a B-stock unit that turned out to be defective. When I asked for a refund, the dealer offered to replace it with a factory fresh unit at no cost.

Another time I used the "make an offer" feature of eBay on a B-stock unit and was told they could not go lower on the B-stock but could sell me a factory fesh unit for a price within spitting distance of the B-stock.

A final case is a dealer that was selling "open box" units for 1/3 off. After a few weeks, the open box option no longer showed up on the page for the unit, but if a buyer entered the name of the unit together with "open box" a different page popped up for purchasing. I ordered one and was surprised to get a factory sealed unit. This dealer is still selling it this way after close to two years. Buyers who don't know or don't ask pay full price and buyers who had heard about the open box offer get the discount.

FWIW I've bought a lot of actual B-stock over the years and saved serious money, usually 20-30% off list.
Old 5 days ago
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lost_the_peace View Post
Hopefully this is just a UK distributor thing, and not something wider in industry... somehow suspect the latter though.
stuff like that only comes from the top.

particularly with japanese companies.
Old 5 days ago
  #28
I have always assumed 'b stock' is returned items. A lot of people return products.
I have bought a few 'b stock' items and found pretty much the product is perfect, although the packaging often looks old and/or beat up. I would rather pay less for a basically perfect 'b stock' synth or module than pay RRP.
Old 5 days ago
  #29
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They pay the fines imposed with the money they got from us. So I don't know how that may affect prices.
Old 4 days ago
  #30
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breakmixer's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
I have always assumed 'b stock' is returned items. A lot of people return products.
I have bought a few 'b stock' items and found pretty much the product is perfect, although the packaging often looks old and/or beat up. I would rather pay less for a basically perfect 'b stock' synth or module than pay RRP.
All the B-Stock I bought was unopened, brand new. I bought a Mopho Se once new stock and got an opened package. I complained, they said as it was the last in stock I got the display model. I said that I'd bought new and expected new and that I wanted a partial refund - they gave me a credit note that i agreed with to diffuse the situation.
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