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Learning keyboard - back to basics
Old 27th February 2020
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
I said "No such thing as natural talent"....
Talent is nothing beside desire. If you truly desire to learn to play well, to the point you are putting other things aside....
TL;DR in bold, below

2 sides of the same coin.

American TV show "60 Minutes" likes to feature a child piano prodigy. Always a crowd pleaser. They had one just last week, Matthew Whitaker. I remember the one about Joey Alexander. I haven't seen the Alma Deutscher episode yet.

The two I saw took lessons early on, but even before that, they both had obvious talent and desire. It always seems to go hand in hand, 2 aspects of the same personality. They understand music preternaturally, and they don't want to stop playing it. The prodigies have these traits from the get go. In the videos from before any lessons, their talent and desire is self-evident. I mean, we're talking about toddlers here, and it's obvious! Those prodigies are naturally better at it than other kids and also learn quicker, and on top of that, you don't have to prod them to practice. One caveat - none of the prodigies that I've seen were "naturals" with sheet music. They all had to learn and practice that part, just like everyone else.

It isn't demoralizing to acknowledge that there are more talented people, and they are more motivated, too. I'm gonna do my own thing either way. Sometimes that means typing on a forum while they're practicing. Oof. That part's a little demoralizing, if I think about it too much.
Old 27th February 2020
  #32
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jbuonacc's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by PuggaMahone View Post
TL;DR in bold, below

2 sides of the same coin.

American TV show "60 Minutes" likes to feature a child piano prodigy. Always a crowd pleaser. They had one just last week, Matthew Whitaker. I remember the one about Joey Alexander. I haven't seen the Alma Deutscher episode yet.

The two I saw took lessons early on, but even before that, they both had obvious talent and desire. It always seems to go hand in hand, 2 aspects of the same personality. They understand music preternaturally, and they don't want to stop playing it. The prodigies seem to have this trait from the get go. In the videos from before any lessons, their talent and desire is self-evident. I mean, we're talking about toddlers here, and it's obvious! Those prodigies are naturally better at it than other kids and also learn quicker, and on top of that, you don't have to prod them to practice. One caveat - none of the prodigies that I've seen were "naturals" with sheet music. They all had to learn and practice that part, just like everyone else.
i don't know how anyone could argue this, it's very obvious in the art world. some people are naturals, and some can barely draw a stick figure no matter how much time they put into learning it.

a friend of mine went to art school (Pittsburgh) and has put in countless hours working on his own stuff since then. he's still just sort of "ok", definitely not much "natural talent".

i sure wasn't thinking of being talented at reading music, but again it just "makes sense" more/quicker to some people than others. some people can grab most any instrument and get something musical out of it, there's thousands of guys that have taken years of guitar lessons and still aren't very good, their timing sucks, etc, etc...
Old 27th February 2020
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezisehtnys View Post
Indeed, I know piano and keys came easy for me whereas guitar not so much. Just forget about drums.
That is weird. As a drummer, I've always been impressed by the level of independence that most key and piano players can handle. That, plus the fact that they have to understand and read rhythm along with it. I'd figure managing three or four drums would be a cinch.
Old 27th February 2020
  #34
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Rezisehtnys's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jidis View Post
That is weird. As a drummer, I've always been impressed by the level of independence that most key and piano players can handle. That, plus the fact that they have to understand and read rhythm along with it. I'd figure managing three or four drums would be a cinch.
I'm ok at finger/hand drums, but I can't do more than basic patterns on a drum set. A lot of it is my fibromyalgia I suspect, I just can't get my arms and legs to do what's needed for drumming. It's ok though since my brother has always covered drums, that and he's pretty good at guitar but not so much on keys oddly enough.
Old 28th February 2020
  #35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezisehtnys View Post
. . . the only book I have out of a HUGE collection that's accurate to the actual parts played in the songs is a Van Halen "keyboard songbook" . . .
Thanks to you, I'm now $17.99 poorer. I just bought the Alfred Publishing book on Amazon thanks to your recommendation since I love many of the songs in that book. It's the first sheet music I've purchased in decades.



Last month, I decided to learn a new scale every month or so to begin my journey back into music theory since the most devastating feeling at the keyboard is not lacking the perfect synth, but lacking the knowledge to use it.

I also ordered some scale/mode laminated cards for quick reference—laugh all you want, I find them helpful. I think it's a modest enough goal to keep me motivated. I always enjoy these threads since I often pick up something new, so thanks for everyone's participation!

Old 28th February 2020
  #36
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Rezisehtnys's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by studio460 View Post
Thanks to you, I'm now $17.99 poorer. I just bought the Alfred Publishing book on Amazon thanks to your recommendation since I love many of the songs in that book. It's the first sheet music I've purchased in decades.



Last month, I decided to learn a new scale every month or so to begin my journey back into music theory since the most devastating feeling at the keyboard is not lacking the perfect synth, but lacking the knowledge to use it.

I also ordered some scale/mode laminated cards for quick reference—laugh all you want, I find them helpful. I think it's a modest enough goal to keep me motivated. I always enjoy these threads since I often pick up something new, so thanks for everyone's participation!

Haha, you're welcome! I'm surprised they still publish it, as it was over 10 years ago when I got my copy. It's definitely nice to have accurate sheet music though, and I seem to recall it had all the big keyboard songs from them.
Old 28th February 2020
  #37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezisehtnys View Post
Haha, you're welcome! I'm surprised they still publish it, as it was over 10 years ago when I got my copy. It's definitely nice to have accurate sheet music though, and I seem to recall it had all the big keyboard songs from them.
Yes, thank you again for mentioning it! I'm excited to get my book/cards today (thanks, Amazon Prime!). Soon I'll be trying out my decades-old sight-reading skills (which weren't very good to begin with). Playing snare in middle-school band and having just a year's worth of piano lessons in seventh grade only goes so far.

I think the one-scale-per-month goal is a manageable one. I've been meaning to create some sort of learning regimen and I think key to that is setting small, achievable goals.
Old 28th February 2020
  #38
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Rezisehtnys's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by studio460 View Post
Yes, thank you again for mentioning it! I'm excited to get my book/cards today (thanks, Amazon Prime!). Soon I'll be trying out my decades-old sight-reading skills (which weren't very good to begin with). Playing snare in middle-school band and having just a year's worth of piano lessons in seventh grade only goes so far.

I think the one-scale-per-month goal is a manageable one. I've been meaning to create some sort of learning regimen and I think key to that is setting small, achievable goals.
No problem! Amazon Prime is pretty great. Also speaking of I need to work on my sight reading, as it's been since school I was forced to do it at a higher level. I always played from memory though, so I didn't put as much work into as I should have(once I forgot to look at the music and got in trouble, oops).

I think small achievable goals are a great way to get back into it. I've been slacking off on the ones I set for myself, instead programming patches and just playing.
Old 29th February 2020
  #39
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jidis View Post
That is weird. As a drummer, I've always been impressed by the level of independence that most key and piano players can handle. That, plus the fact that they have to understand and read rhythm along with it. I'd figure managing three or four drums would be a cinch.
"Talent" is like "Freedom", a meaningless word. Handy though if you want to sell something or "explain" something without reference to reality.

In one thread a piano player said to an organist: "wow, you organists have such multi-limb talent (Organ has 32 note pedal board), I'd never learn to do that". Unless you practiced.

Certainly a lot of factors do play into how good you may get at playing keyboard.

When did you start?
How much do you practice?
How do you practice?
What are you using?
Do you have bad habits?
etc.

But the fact is anyone can learn to play a piano. Period. Just like anyone can learn to drive. Might not win the indy 500, but they can get to the store.

We know this is true because a huge number of people in the US did learn to play the Piano between 1830 and 1930. Even in poor neighborhoods there were alot of Pianos. Sheet music sales were only outstripped by record sales after WW2.

Nobody had a radio or phone. They had printed words and musical instruments. The Piano was compelling.

Learning English is a million times harder that learning to play a Piano if you grew up without reading and speaking an unrelated language. Yet we have all done it--to some degree.

That said, learning to play the piano is harder than any skill the average consumer is asked to master, including driving. Confronted by hardness, it's nice to say....I just don't have the "talent".

You would rather do something easier. That's why hardly anybody can play anything anymore. So much easier to just listen.

And so much less.

The single pre-requisite for keyboard success is.....grit. Desire + commitment. Work on it every day, even just 15 minutes, you will learn. Talent or no talent.

Can't read music? Work on it and don't give up. You will learn it. Will you sight read like rachmaninuff? Those classical players don't pay on stage without many hours practice, months usually. So perfect cold sight reading is not a widely held skill. But being able to fake about any song well enough to seriously amuse one self after 20 mins with the notes, is a pretty widely held skill anybody can learn.

If you are willing to pay those dues, here is what you get


If you watch that, then consider: musical practice changes everybodys brain. The more we play the more the brain is changed physically.

Which has more musical potential, smaller brained you or bigger brained you?
Old 29th February 2020
  #40
Lives for gear
 
Rezisehtnys's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
"Talent" is like "Freedom", a meaningless word. Handy though if you want to sell something or "explain" something without reference to reality.

In one thread a piano player said to an organist: "wow, you organists have such multi-limb talent (Organ has 32 note pedal board), I'd never learn to do that". Unless you practiced.

Certainly a lot of factors do play into how good you may get at playing keyboard.

When did you start?
How much do you practice?
How do you practice?
What are you using?
Do you have bad habits?
etc.

But the fact is anyone can learn to play a piano. Period. Just like anyone can learn to drive. Might not win the indy 500, but they can get to the store.

We know this is true because a huge number of people in the US did learn to play the Piano between 1830 and 1930. Even in poor neighborhoods there were alot of Pianos. Sheet music sales were only outstripped by record sales after WW2.

Nobody had a radio or phone. They had printed words and musical instruments. The Piano was compelling.

Learning English is a million times harder that learning to play a Piano if you grew up without reading and speaking an unrelated language. Yet we have all done it--to some degree.

That said, learning to play the piano is harder than any skill the average consumer is asked to master, including driving. Confronted by hardness, it's nice to say....I just don't have the "talent".

You would rather do something easier. That's why hardly anybody can play anything anymore. So much easier to just listen.

And so much less.

The single pre-requisite for keyboard success is.....grit. Desire + commitment. Work on it every day, even just 15 minutes, you will learn. Talent or no talent.

Can't read music? Work on it and don't give up. You will learn it. Will you sight read like rachmaninuff? Those classical players don't pay on stage without many hours practice, months usually. So perfect cold sight reading is not a widely held skill. But being able to fake about any song well enough to seriously amuse one self after 20 mins with the notes, is a pretty widely held skill anybody can learn.

If you are willing to pay those dues, here is what you get


If you watch that, then consider: musical practice changes everybodys brain. The more we play the more the brain is changed physically.

Which has more musical potential, smaller brained you or bigger brained you?
Video helps explain why I shifted to improvising all of the time, that and I find it infinitely easier to pull complex arrangements out of nowhere versus memorizing one made by somebody else.
Old 1st March 2020
  #41
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jbuonacc's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
"Talent" is like "Freedom", a meaningless word. Handy though if you want to sell something or "explain" something without reference to reality.
no way.

Quote:
Certainly a lot of factors do play into how good you may get at playing keyboard.

When did you start?
How much do you practice?
How do you practice?
What are you using?
Do you have bad habits?
etc.

But the fact is anyone can learn to play a piano. Period. Just like anyone can learn to drive. ...
sure, most people can "learn" just about anything. that doesn't diminish the fact that certain people have a natural talent for things. we've all seen countless examples of this, though i'm not sure that playing piano (or most any instrument) is something that one could really have a natural talent for.

i'm thinking more like activities that require a completely different ways of thinking or looking at things. art, math, coding, composing, etc... but even then, how would you explain the difference in ability between two people that have put in the same amount of effort/practice? one could still be far better at it than the other.

cripes, i can't believe you're really trying to push this.
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