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If you could...Moog One or Vintage Matrix 12?
Old 22nd February 2020
  #1
Gear Addict
If you could...Moog One or Vintage Matrix 12?

I'm a little torn.

Matrix 12 has been my dream synth for years... finding one has been a real pain - they are rare as rocking horse $%#$ and I may have an opportunity.

BUT...

The Moog One is also tempting me and is a similar price.

What would you do?
Old 22nd February 2020
  #2
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
It’s an interesting dilemma because I think that the One is basically a modern matrix12.

I haven’t had a ton of time with the One, but to me the strengths of the matrix in 2020 are the classic CEM filter and a very Polished/refined “ready for movie soundtrack“ analog sound.

If I didn’t already own a 12, I would probably be looking at a One since it really does all the things that the matrix does but better, with a much more hands-on interface, and none of the reliability issues. Also much easier to find!

That being said, if you are already familiar with the xpander/matrix 12 sound and really love it, it’s possible that the one might not cut it because even though the matrix is pretty clean, the One is going to have a more pronounced modern analog sound with very little of that vintage Mid-range fuzz.

I guess what I would probably do is go for the matrix and see if it blows you away or not. If it doesn’t you shouldn’t have a hard time selling and then you could just get a one without having any second thoughts
Old 22nd February 2020 | Show parent
  #3
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Ruff ➡️
It’s an interesting dilemma because I think that the One is basically a modern matrix12.

I haven’t had a ton of time with the One, but to me the strengths of the matrix in 2020 are the classic CEM filter and a very Polished/refined “ready for movie soundtrack“ analog sound.

If I didn’t already own a 12, I would probably be looking at a One since it really does all the things that the matrix does but better, with a much more hands-on interface, and none of the reliability issues. Also much easier to find!

That being said, if you are already familiar with the xpander/matrix 12 sound and really love it, it’s possible that the one might not cut it because even though the matrix is pretty clean, the One is going to have a more pronounced modern analog sound with very little of that vintage Mid-range fuzz.

I guess what I would probably do is go for the matrix and see if it blows you away or not. If it doesn’t you shouldn’t have a hard time selling and then you could just get a one without having any second thoughts
Yeah I did think that it would be easier to find Moog One to buy if the M12 didn’t work out for me

I have a feeling that I would just keep the M12 and buy an M One in a year or two
Old 22nd February 2020
  #4
Gear Nut
 
artichoke wave's Avatar
catch the dream. Matrix 12 no doubt.

For me moog one is a big disappointment... I tried it and feel no magic, and is overpriced... you can't even add waves...
great synth but not for 8500euro
Old 22nd February 2020
  #5
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bkbirge's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I had that exact same choice and went with the Moog. No regrets. It ticks all the boxes that I wanted an M12 for and then some. But given your username, if the M12 sound is the one calling to you then go with that. The M12 is a sexy beast for sure. If you go that route try to find one with the individual voice outputs.
Old 22nd February 2020 | Show parent
  #6
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kwaping's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Ruff ➡️
I guess what I would probably do is go for the matrix and see if it blows you away or not. If it doesn’t you shouldn’t have a hard time selling and then you could just get a one without having any second thoughts
This.
Old 22nd February 2020
  #7
Lives for gear
If I had to take one of them Matrix 12 for sure, but in the real world my answer is neither, I don't hear the mojo which want on an analog synth, although the Matrix is still better than the One in that departement imo.
Old 22nd February 2020
  #8
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iksrazal's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
The lead synth of my latest track in my sig (middle section), is a patch I made on the One that I mostly created within the first 5 minutes I was on it.

I totally use the One CV IO, you can see me use the mod wheel to turn several moogerfoogers "on" in the middle of the track by going from 0V to 5V, then off. As a modern CV controller its unparalleled, I couldn't have done the drum parts the same way without it.

The Matrix 12 (and Xpander) are the only synths from the 80's I would really like to see reissued ... lets see what Tom's next synth is as that's what I'd like to see. I have the TVS, its amazing.
Old 22nd February 2020 | Show parent
  #9
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by iksrazal ➡️
The lead synth of my latest track in my sig (middle section), is a patch I made on the One that I mostly created within the first 5 minutes I was on it.

I totally use the One CV IO, you can see me use the mod wheel to turn several moogerfoogers "on" in the middle of the track by going from 0V to 5V, then off. As a modern CV controller its unparalleled, I couldn't have done the drum parts the same way without it.

The Matrix 12 (and Xpander) are the only synths from the 80's I would really like to see reissued ... lets see what Tom's next synth is as that's what I'd like to see. I have the TVS, its amazing.
Yeah that’s what I’m also worried about... imagine buying the M12 then Tom and Dave come out with a modern version!
Old 22nd February 2020
  #10
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iksrazal's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I'm holding off on all synth purchases until I see what Tom has in mind, at 83+ it'll be a "must buy" whatever it is.

"I’m still in the business and hope to have a new product out by the end of this year, and I’m also hoping to get back into the polyphonic synthesizer business next year."

https://www.musicradar.com/news/tom-...tter-than-ever
Old 22nd February 2020 | Show parent
  #11
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oberheim ➡️
Yeah that’s what I’m also worried about... imagine buying the M12 then Tom and Dave come out with a modern version!
I would't worry about that--as much as I'd love to see another TO product, history suggests it probably won't happen. So in terms of what is actually available now (or will be soon), the only viable candidate for a true modern Oberheim is the new Abstrakt VS-1. But that is an OB-X in a rack, not a Matrix.
Old 22nd February 2020
  #12
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Buy the Moog One and buy Arturia’s Matrix 12V
for a few quid more. So you can satisfy
both cravings.
Old 22nd February 2020
  #13
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Can’t go wrong with either choice imo. Both are beauts. But for me, I’d go with the Matrix 12. The One will likely be easier to find for a good while longer.
Old 22nd February 2020
  #14
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daviddever's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
First question I'd ask before I'd dive in (and trust me, I'd love to have one as well) is the question of replacement CEM 3374 (dual VCO) and CEM 3372 (VCF / mixer / VCA) ICs.

Having owned a Prophet-600 (2x individual CEM 3340 VCOs, plus the 3372) and having a notion as to how much the 3372 affects the overall sound, I'd be heartbroken if I spent $$$ on a semi-working unit, only to have a voice or two hit the skids.

And then there's the issue of the keybed / aftertouch reliability, as well as the displays (both for which are there third parties working on suitable long-term replacements).

The same applies to an Xpander; at nearly twice the money of a current Prophet-6, for a rough apples-to-pears reference, it's a commitment that I'd weigh very carefully, and for which the existence of readily available 3372 / 3374 replacements would definitely tilt the scales toward me tracking one down.

As for the (16-voice) Moog One: having played with it a handful of times, I feel that a sympathetic audition environment is probably really hard to find, in terms of being able to dig into the sound of a 48-oscillator beast (having built-in effects) without much of the subtleties being lost (a complaint I've had with the Prologue-16). I've seen the same issue with the Prophet-12 and Andromeda A6, i.e., decent results require a more judicious use of gain staging and subtraction, rather than stacking everything up like an 80s MIDI-style layer.

(To that end - have you considered an Xpander instead?)
Old 22nd February 2020
  #15
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
As an owner of a Matrix 12 I would say, without a moment's hesitation, go for the Moog. The adjustable envelope slopes (in Alesis Andromeda speak they're called slopes. In the Moog manual, page 45, they are referred to as curves.) alone are enough to put the One above anything else. I suspect they copied this feature from the Andromeda but that doesn't make it any less of a stroke of genius. Without this feature you would have a much harder time emulating vintage synths. Roland Jupiter 8 for example has exponential envelope curves. If you want those Roland sweeps and whooshes you need exponential ADR curves/slopes. Each time parameter of an envelope is configurable with whatever slope/curve you want (except delay/sustain). Linear, exponential, logarithmic (And in the case of the Andromeda, the S curve shape is available.). Linear curve shape is, well linear; it doesn't accelerate as it approaches it's target level. Exponential slope/curve on the other hand accelerates as it approaches it's target level.

You can imagine what a massive impact this will have on every patch you make.

This feature alone makes the One a chameleon type synth. You should be able to get it to mimic, with a lot of accuracy, just about anything. Listening to the One, and majority of demos out there suck (way too complicated too many things things going on etc etc), and with an armada of old Roland synths in front of me it strikes me as something that can get into that territory. There are lots of clues across various demos. Moog has also programmed some Jupiter sounds into it's latest firmware releases and it's on point for the most part I would say. Could certainly fool me. The pre programmed patches in the new firmware already give you some Roland flavour in the way the envelopes behave so that's a great start point. But I bet you you can reverse engineer the others too (Prophets, Korgs etc). Best feature about the Moog as far as I'm concerned. And probably also the most underutilized (same with Andromeda).

On the subject of the Matrix I get the impression the One already does Oberheim just fine. I hear tons of Oberheim like sounds throughout the various demos. Not surprising perhaps since you have a SEM filter on board. The modulation matrix is on par as well I would say. I really can't see a single reason to not go the Moog One route in this case. It's new (with warranty) with a vintage flavour. And if you dig into the envelopes you'll be able to get it to sound like any synth you want.
Old 22nd February 2020 | Show parent
  #16
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by daviddever ➡️
First question I'd ask before I'd dive in (and trust me, I'd love to have one as well) is the question of replacement CEM 3374 (dual VCO) and CEM 3372 (VCF / mixer / VCA) ICs.

Having owned a Prophet-600 (2x individual CEM 3340 VCOs, plus the 3372) and having a notion as to how much the 3372 affects the overall sound, I'd be heartbroken if I spent $$$ on a semi-working unit, only to have a voice or two hit the skids.
This is definitely a valid concern, but less so for these synths. The 3372s seem to be the thing that fails the most often, but they are also the most common. I've really never heard of 3374s failing; ditto for the display (there were replacements being made for a while, I don't know if there will be another run of these). It happens for sure, but just not frequently. For that reason, the Xpander/M-12 are probably some of the most reliable vintage ana-polys out there. The biggest repair issue is more likely the dreaded CPU error

Quote:
Originally Posted by asdf ➡️
As an owner of a Matrix 12 I would say, without a moment's hesitation, go for the Moog. The adjustable envelope slopes (in Alesis Andromeda speak they're called slopes. In the Moog manual, page 45, they are referred to as curves.) alone are enough to put the One above anything else. I suspect they copied this feature from the Andromeda but that doesn't make it any less of a stroke of genius. Without this feature you would have a much harder time emulating vintage synths. Roland Jupiter 8 for example has exponential envelope curves.
You can make exponential slopes on the Xpander/M-12, you just modulate the whichever part of the envelope slope you want to be exponential with itself. It won't be nearly as fast as the One of course, but it can be done.

Last edited by Sir Ruff; 22nd February 2020 at 07:20 PM..
Old 22nd February 2020
  #17
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Neither.
There are hundreds of better ways to spend that amount of $ on electronic instruments.
Old 22nd February 2020
  #18
Lives for gear
 
the matrix12 has a very limited cpu like all synths from that time .. personally the filters don't convince me.
pity there is no cpu upgrade like for the jupiter 6 ( europa )
the m1 may or may not work at some point. tuning problems are still present, etc. i would hear the overtone behavior of the m1 exactly ..
harmonic is different.. difficult decision.

take a river .. modern with retro sound ..


Quote:
Originally Posted by asdf ➡️
As an owner of a Matrix 12 I would say, without a moment's hesitation, go for the Moog. The adjustable envelope slopes (in Alesis Andromeda speak they're called slopes. In the Moog manual, page 45, they are referred to as curves.) alone are enough to put the One above anything else. I suspect they copied this feature from the Andromeda but that doesn't make it any less of a stroke of genius. Without this feature you would have a much harder time emulating vintage synths. Roland Jupiter 8 for example has exponential envelope curves. If you want those Roland sweeps and whooshes you need exponential ADR curves/slopes. Each time parameter of an envelope is configurable with whatever slope/curve you want (except delay/sustain). Linear, exponential, logarithmic (And in the case of the Andromeda, the S curve shape is available.). Linear curve shape is, well linear; it doesn't accelerate as it approaches it's target level. Exponential slope/curve on the other hand accelerates as it approaches it's target level.

You can imagine what a massive impact this will have on every patch you make.

This feature alone makes the One a chameleon type synth.
.
the deemind12 also has this feature .. it can sound both moogish and oberheim style.
Old 22nd February 2020 | Show parent
  #19
Lives for gear
 
Musicncars's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Only downfall on the moog one, is resale value. You better like it, once you get it, because if you sell it, you will lose 1000 to 2000 on what you pay for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by asdf ➡️
As an owner of a Matrix 12 I would say, without a moment's hesitation, go for the Moog. The adjustable envelope slopes (in Alesis Andromeda speak they're called slopes. In the Moog manual, page 45, they are referred to as curves.) alone are enough to put the One above anything else. I suspect they copied this feature from the Andromeda but that doesn't make it any less of a stroke of genius. Without this feature you would have a much harder time emulating vintage synths. Roland Jupiter 8 for example has exponential envelope curves. If you want those Roland sweeps and whooshes you need exponential ADR curves/slopes. Each time parameter of an envelope is configurable with whatever slope/curve you want (except delay/sustain). Linear, exponential, logarithmic (And in the case of the Andromeda, the S curve shape is available.). Linear curve shape is, well linear; it doesn't accelerate as it approaches it's target level. Exponential slope/curve on the other hand accelerates as it approaches it's target level.

You can imagine what a massive impact this will have on every patch you make.

This feature alone makes the One a chameleon type synth. You should be able to get it to mimic, with a lot of accuracy, just about anything. Listening to the One, and majority of demos out there suck (way too complicated too many things things going on etc etc), and with an armada of old Roland synths in front of me it strikes me as something that can get into that territory. There are lots of clues across various demos. Moog has also programmed some Jupiter sounds into it's latest firmware releases and it's on point for the most part I would say. Could certainly fool me. The pre programmed patches in the new firmware already give you some Roland flavour in the way the envelopes behave so that's a great start point. But I bet you you can reverse engineer the others too (Prophets, Korgs etc). Best feature about the Moog as far as I'm concerned. And probably also the most underutilized (same with Andromeda).

On the subject of the Matrix I get the impression the One already does Oberheim just fine. I hear tons of Oberheim like sounds throughout the various demos. Not surprising perhaps since you have a SEM filter on board. The modulation matrix is on par as well I would say. I really can't see a single reason to not go the Moog One route in this case. It's new (with warranty) with a vintage flavour. And if you dig into the envelopes you'll be able to get it to sound like any synth you want.
Old 23rd February 2020
  #20
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synthguy's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
I'd get the Moog One.

1. It's a Moog, and darn it, I love those synths.

2. It's so much like a programmable modular with effects. The two filters are classic but with some modern sound to them. You should be able to do so many Tomita-istic things with it, without half trying. You'll never stop making new timbres with it.

I'd put up with its bugs and personality quirks.
Old 23rd February 2020
  #21
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Quantum7's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I've never had the pleasure of owning a Matrix 12, but have played one on several occasions and have heard nearly every audio demo out there. I have however, owned a Moog One. The UI of the Moog One is one of the best I've ever experienced, absolutely a joy to use with great feeling keys, knobs, buttons and unlimited patch storage. That said though, I like the sound of the Matrix 12 immensely better than the Moog One's sound. Personally I'd get the Matrix 12 as long as you are willing to put up with what comes with owning a vintage synth. You can always buy a Moog One very easily whenever you want....and the used prices will most likely go down for the next 5 or 10 years. Who knows if any of us though, but the very financially blessed, will be able to afford a Matrix 12 in 5 or 10 years.... if the price keeps rising and rising with vintage synths. Just one synth-nerds opinion though. Good luck with whatever you decide.
Old 23rd February 2020 | Show parent
  #22
Lives for gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by synthguy ➡️

I'd put up with its bugs and personality quirks.
good joke, unfortunately not really funny, the synth is too expensive for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quantum7 ➡️
Who knows if any of us though, but the very financially blessed, will be able to afford a Matrix 12 in 5 or 10 years.... if the price keeps rising and rising with vintage synths. Just one synth-nerds opinion though. Good luck with whatever you decide.
with us the prices have been relatively stable for a long time, and there is no such high demand.
Original SEM or OBX are more in demand.
Old 23rd February 2020 | Show parent
  #23
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synthguy's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by pppch ➡️
good joke, unfortunately not really funny
Yeah. Except it's not. High performance cars aren't purchased for their reliability or ability to seat six comfortably either.
Old 23rd February 2020 | Show parent
  #24
Lives for gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by synthguy ➡️
Yeah. Except it's not. High performance cars aren't purchased for their reliability or ability to seat six comfortably either.
ever heard of porsche ..:P
Old 23rd February 2020
  #25
Lives for gear
 
charlieclouser's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I have an Xpander (with Oddenmart external audio input mod) and I've had a Matrix-12 in the past. I don't have a Moog One, but I've used them on sessions and I did have a few MemoryMoogs back in the day.

One thing nobody has mentioned is the unusual filter types on the Xpander/Matrix-12. That's why I still have my Xpander. While the envelopes have their weaknesses, and the raw sound of the oscillators is not world-shattering like Moog stuff, those odd filter types are really something special, and critical to getting a certain type of sound that I've used on a bunch of really aggressive records.

I like them so much that I've got a couple of the Doepfer Xpander filter modules for EuroRack, and they do the job quite nicely but of course are not part of a poly synth.

I've also tried to duplicate some of my 30-year-old Xpander patches that use those filter type on the Arturia version, and you can get pretty close - but it takes 12 or 16 voices of Arturia in unison mode to sound 7/8 as big as 6 voices of Xpander in unison. So.... yeah. The filters are unusual and pretty special, if you like the weird tones that they can do.

You'd think I'd have a Moog One by now but it just didn't light my fire for the type of sounds I use. However it is built to an impeccable high standard and is sturdy and probably more reliable than a Matrix-12. If you go for the Matrix-12, be on the lookout for all the spares you'll eventually need - encoders, buttons, and then there's the displays, which cannot be found anywhere - but there is a modern replacement available at a high price:

http://www.lenham.clara.net/sound/obvfd.html
Old 23rd February 2020 | Show parent
  #26
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daviddever's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlieclouser ➡️
If you go for the Matrix-12, be on the lookout for all the spares you'll eventually need - encoders, buttons, and then there's the displays, which cannot be found anywhere - but there is a modern replacement available at a high price:

http://www.lenham.clara.net/sound/obvfd.html
This is key (referring to Xpander, may also refer to the limited number of Matrix-12s made in Japan):

Quote:
The OB-VFD upgrade will fit all Xpanders and Matrix-12s that were built in the USA. Most were, but a small number were also manufactured in Japan using a somewhat modified design. Japanese synths do not have their displays mounted on a separate circuit board, so the upgrade cannot be fitted. Please check your synth before ordering - the country of manufacture should be visible on the rear panel label.
Old 23rd February 2020 | Show parent
  #27
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlieclouser ➡️
there's the displays, which cannot be found anywhere - but there is a modern replacement available at a high price:

http://www.lenham.clara.net/sound/obvfd.html

these are longer made AFAIK. I got one of the last ones he had for sale a few years ago. But again, the display is probably/thankfully the least of your concerns. All other potentially problematic parts can be replaced relatively easily.
Old 23rd February 2020 | Show parent
  #28
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charlieclouser's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Ruff ➡️
these are longer made AFAIK. I got one of the last ones he had for sale a few years ago. But again, the display is probably/thankfully the least of your concerns. All other potentially problematic parts can be replaced relatively easily.
Well... crap. I hesitated to just go ahead and buy a set when I first found out about them because my Xpander is working fine (knock on wood), and I'm bummed to find out they're over with. Oh well.

I read somewhere that the original displays do have a very long life compared to something like a EL foil backlit LCD for instance, so that's a good thing. Fingers crossed it's true!
Old 23rd February 2020
  #29
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
I have a Matrix 12 and its definitely my fav polysynth... however mine has had to go through a lot of changes for it to work... replacement power supply, complete encoder replacement, op amp replacement and a filter chip as well as the odd capacitor here and there.

Moog one is pretty cool but I get a different vibe from it. Probably the Moog can go a lot further than the M12 but there is something about the M12 and its phasiness ons simple tones which kinda draws me more than the endless modulation possibilities...

Saying all the above I'll probably be letting go of my Matrix 12 this year as well as my old Minimoog.. I rarely touch them these days and they deserve and need to be used by someone.
Old 23rd February 2020 | Show parent
  #30
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Musicncars's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by orangefunk ➡️
I have a Matrix 12 and its definitely my fav polysynth... however mine has had to go through a lot of changes for it to work... replacement power supply, complete encoder replacement, op amp replacement and a filter chip as well as the odd capacitor here and there.

Moog one is pretty cool but I get a different vibe from it. Probably the Moog can go a lot further than the M12 but there is something about the M12 and its phasiness ons simple tones which kinda draws me more than the endless modulation possibilities...

Saying all the above I'll probably be letting go of my Matrix 12 this year as well as my old Minimoog.. I rarely touch them these days and they deserve and need to be used by someone.
Where are you located? I may be in the market soon for a good model d. That’s on my short list of synths. Then I’m
Officially not looking to add anything else.
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