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CS-5 Sounds Better Than CS-10?
Old 31st January 2020 | Show parent
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LWG View Post
Hello!

The CS-5 and 10 use the same basic chipset, but the supporting circuitry for the oscillator is not the same.
The outputs of the saw and pulse wave on the CS-5 have an odd phase relationship. Particularly when the saw is fully on and the square approaches three quarters in volume, the fundamental frequency begins to attenuate and the second harmonic becomes more prominent. Set just right, it almost sounds like two tone generators tuned an octave apart, but phase locked. (Or a one-oscillator machine with simultaneous octave footage outputs).* When this sweet spot is dialed in the bass isn't as heavy as on the Roland sh-101 or the Yammy CS-10 at the same mix proportions, but outside of this not a huge difference in bass. The odd interaction between the CS-5's two wave ouputs produces a some subtle tone coloration that the CS-10 or sh-101won't do.
You can distinctly hear this effect at the 1:45 mark:

https://youtu.be/XDvnNeCDDi8

p.s. iirc, CS-5 was released at the same time as the CS-15, CS-20M and CS-40M All four were one product group and I remember playing the 5 and 15 in a local music shop in late 78.

-L
I've been comparing the resulting waveforms on a piece of of paper. In isolation it's only a saw and an inverted square; and like you say it's at the summing that things get interesting. Both waves summed at full output produce an inverted saw wave, while with the square at say half volume, the resulting waveshape turns into an asymmetrical saw wave. I mean asymmetrical in the sense that the cycle goes from say +2, +1, 0, -1, -2, -3, +3, +2, +1, 0, -1, -2, +2, +1...
I'll post a graphic later.

Last edited by Lector; 31st January 2020 at 07:47 PM.. Reason: spelling
Old 31st January 2020 | Show parent
  #32
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The above example is with a saw set to +5/-5 and the square set at +3/-3. A ratio of about 3:2. It's curious because the combined waveshape results in two saw waves per cycle, where the second one is greater than the other at the same ratio of 3:2, in both amplitude AND period. It means one is louder and at a lower relative frequency than the other. Problem is, they're alternating, one after the other, always phase-locked to the 'master' frequency. We can't make two VCOs out of one this way, but we have here the possibility of messing with harmonics and fundamentals enough to fool some ears. Maybe this is how the Moog SL8 Harmonic Multiplier worked, IDK, but it's a shame there is no variable PW on the CS5, just PWM. It could be interesting. Just a simple mod.
Old 31st January 2020 | Show parent
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezisehtnys View Post
I had one, meh...

Just kidding, congrats! I'll join you in trance nation soon enough with a Virus TI 61. ALL THE SUPERSAW AND HYPERSAW!!!
Supersaw
Feedback oscillator
X-mod


The reasons I got it....in that order.
Old 31st January 2020 | Show parent
  #34
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There. I think it's self-explanatory
Attached Thumbnails
CS-5 Sounds Better Than CS-10?-cs5-cs10.jpg  
Old 31st January 2020 | Show parent
  #35
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Rezisehtnys's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebodyperson View Post
Supersaw
Feedback oscillator
X-mod


The reasons I got it....in that order.
I think supersaw is the reason most people get a JP-8000. Look forward to hearing what you do with it.
Old 1st February 2020 | Show parent
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LWG View Post
Its a two-channel preset machine in the tradition of the Roland sh-2000, etc., that's mated to a CS-10 styled monosynth that's output from the second channel.
The preset section is more in the 70's mold, using resistor networks to do formant-shaping for the instrument presets. Probably more expressive than the CS-5,10,15, and 30, as it has pitch and mod wheels.

Several of Yamaha's SK series of combo machines (SK-50D, etc.) have a solo synth section. The solo synth in the SK series is also based on the CS-5; same architecture/chipset, but sounds more raw and bassy.

https://youtu.be/3DR8W5w2tAk

Cheers,

-L
Thanks, I know what the layout/architecture is. My comment was related to which type of filter circuitry is used, i.e., the black series or the M series.
Old 1st February 2020 | Show parent
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebodyperson View Post
Also, I believe the 10 was never available to the US market....and maybe not even outside of Japan.
I have a 110V CS-10 that also has a certification sticker from Ontario Hydro (Canada). Maybe Canada got them and the US didn't?
Old 1st February 2020 | Show parent
  #38
LWG
Gear Nut
 

thread topic

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Ruff View Post
Thanks, I know what the layout/architecture is. My comment was related to which type of filter circuitry is used, i.e., the black series or the M series.
The "black series" and M series use the same filter IC, as does the variable solo synth on the 15D.
The IG00156, an ota filter on a chip.
The "M-series" just added separate lfo functionality on the vco/f/a and rudimentary patch storage.
Yamaha used the same core chipset across their
CS product line, and including some of the SK series.
The differences were in how supporting/peripheral functions (I.e, waveshaping, envelopes, etc.) to those three blocks were implemented.

-L
Old 1st February 2020 | Show parent
  #39
LWG
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lector View Post
We can't make two VCOs out of one this way, but we have here the possibility of messing with harmonics and fundamentals enough to fool some ears. Maybe this is how the Moog SL8 Harmonic Multiplier worked, IDK, but it's a shame there is no variable PW on the CS5, just PWM. It could be interesting. Just a simple mod.
Interesting info. I notice that on the CS-5, the saw core from the vco is fed to the mixer as a positive-going saw but on the CS-10, the saw core is sent through an inverter, then sent to the mixer as a rising ramp.
Another odd design feature of both machines is there is a fixed amount of keyboard CV wired to the vcf. It tracks at about 1/3. The 5,10, and 15 are like this, with no way of switching it off or increasing it to full.
Yes, direct control over the 5's pulse width, like the 10 would be cool.

-L
Old 1st February 2020 | Show parent
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LWG View Post
Interesting info. I notice that on the CS-5, the saw core from the vco is fed to the mixer as a positive-going saw but on the CS-10, the saw core is sent through an inverter, then sent to the mixer as a rising ramp.
Another odd design feature of both machines is there is a fixed amount of keyboard CV wired to the vcf. It tracks at about 1/3. The 5,10, and 15 are like this, with no way of switching it off or increasing it to full.
Yes, direct control over the 5's pulse width, like the 10 would be cool.

-L
Yes, since the positive going saw is what feeds the non-inverting input of the comparator, the square wave comes out negative going. On the CS10 the saw wave gets inverted prior to the summing to maintain phase coherence.
On the CS5 they didn't invert the saw wave for some reason, maybe to save costs, maybe for addied functionality (waveshaping), probably for both reasons.
If you bypass the inverter and probably change one or two resistors, the CS10 will behave like the CS5.

They probably didn't provide adjustable kbd tracking because the filter doesn't go into self-oscillation, something they also didn't provide.

All you have to do to have direct control over PW is to cut the LFO line. A simple SPST would do. I think a push-pull switch potentiometer in place of the PWM pot would look neat and add value to the synth.
Old 1st February 2020 | Show parent
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LWG View Post
The "black series" and M series use the same filter IC, as does the variable solo synth on the 15D.
The IG00156, an ota filter on a chip.
The "M-series" just added separate lfo functionality on the vco/f/a and rudimentary patch storage.
Yamaha used the same core chipset across their
CS product line, and including some of the SK series.
The differences were in how supporting/peripheral functions (I.e, waveshaping, envelopes, etc.) to those three blocks were implemented.

-L
Yes, I also already know this

Despite using the same chipset, the back and M synths have a different filter sound—Black is more polite; M is more aggressive. Which filter flavor the CS-15D has is what I am trying to determine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LWG View Post
Another odd design feature of both machines is there is a fixed amount of keyboard CV wired to the vcf. It tracks at about 1/3. The 5,10, and 15 are like this, with no way of switching it off or increasing it to full.
-L
Are we sure it’s only 1/3? I have definitely tried to gauge this and it feels more like 1/1. The filter resonance tracks the oscillator harmonics perfectly, which is why I am wondering.

EDIT: just tested, it does seem to be quite low tracking, which is again surprising because it feels like the filter does track the harmonics really well.

Last edited by Sir Ruff; 1st February 2020 at 03:24 PM..
Old 8th February 2020 | Show parent
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lector View Post
There. I think it's self-explanatory
Counting left to right, top to bottom, shapes 7 and 8 have errors LOL. Can you spot them?
Old 8th February 2020 | Show parent
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Ruff View Post
Despite using the same chipset, the back and M synths have a different filter sound—Black is more polite; M is more aggressive. Which filter flavor the CS-15D has is what I am trying to determine.
I had a brief look at the schematic the internal architecture is confusing. There are apparently two identical filters, one per channel. Don't know which one is controlled via front panel. One thing that stood out is one of the channels seems inverted (has an extra buffer stage), so the mix out might sound odd if compared to just either one of the channels.
Old 20th February 2020 | Show parent
  #44
LWG
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lector View Post
Counting left to right, top to bottom, shapes 7 and 8 have errors LOL. Can you spot them?
Please elaborate.

Cheers
Old 20th February 2020 | Show parent
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LWG View Post
Please elaborate.

Cheers
Corrected
Attached Thumbnails
CS-5 Sounds Better Than CS-10?-cs5-cs10.jpg  
Old 30th March 2020 | Show parent
  #46
LWG
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lector View Post
Corrected
Hello!
I'm assuming that since the start phase of the square is inverted in relation to the saw, the odd harmonics in the square will somewhat cancel and so even when the waves are mixed, the result is a variation on the core saw wave, although by ear, it sounds notably different from a raw saw wave.
Whereas on the CS-10, because both waves are in phase when they are combined, you get something closer to the classic saw/square mix sound.
Although there were a number of machines from that era that allowed you to mix the waveshapes (CS-10, ARP's Axxe, Octave Cat/Kitten, SH-101, etc.), CS-5 is the only one that had that quirky result.

Cheers
Old 1st April 2020 | Show parent
  #47
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Yeah it's a little unorthodox for Yamaha. I wonder if it was made on purpose so it would have an edge facing the competition.
Old 28th September 2020 | Show parent
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LWG View Post
In a blind listen, most couldn't tell the difference, but
the CS-5 probably sounds a little more direct because
it's signal path is shorter.
The CS-10 has a master volume control whereas the 5 does not. The CS--5 has the final master volume omitted (presumably to cut costs).
The 5 has only one transistor stage after the vca, but the 10 has two, with the final one being for the master volume.

Cheers,

-L
Missed this earlier. interesting differences. I suppose that could affect the tone somehow.
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