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Leak: Korg DX7 Clone? The OPSIX
Old 5 days ago
  #601
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by psionic11 View Post
The routing in the TG77 is decent with 3 feedback operators, but good luck trying to wrap your head around it...





Now the Kronos FM engine MOD7 has a completely open routing matrix (virtual MODular):

6 operators + audio IN + sample osc
6 output main mixer
3 submixers
2 filters

On the touchscreen you just drag and drop your virtual cables however you want.

Easy peasy, and let's you get really creative.

red = input
blue = output

Osc 1 (operator) => mixer ch1
Osc 2 (operator) => filter A => mixer ch2

Osc 3 (mod) => Osc 4 (operator) => filter B => mixer ch3

Osc 5 (mod) => Osc 6 (operator) => mixer ch4


They ignore psionics great posts and keep chattering about ancient FM synths as if that is what korg is limited to doing.

Knob per function! I can only get inspired to make music by touching knobs!
Old 5 days ago
  #602
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grasspike's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by robinkle View Post
I can agree to an extent that the Jellinghaus can be unintuitive, but that's because of the size mostly, it's quite a reach...... Pages, menus, irratable lag and small text and small soft buttons, sucks the creativity right out of you. Hands-on physical control or go home.
You can't have it both ways. There are just way to many parameters on a DX7 style synth.

Either you have knob per function which creates a giant beast or you have some sort of pages and menus.

I guess you could have Volca or Roland Boutique sized knobs that could make the device smaller but having a 100 of those packed into a smallish grid would a nightmare.

Likewise having the same knob control multiple things would require some type of menu system with page diving. It would also not allow you to edit two parameters at the same time if they are both on the same knob just on different pages on the menu. Brian Eno said in that interview that was the best thing about using that controller. The ability to edit multiple things at once
Old 5 days ago
  #603
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Mastropiero's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by grasspike View Post
It would also not allow you to edit two parameters at the same time if they are both on the same knob just on different pages on the menu. Brian Eno said in that interview that was the best thing about using that controller. The ability to edit multiple things at once
It makes sense. FM programs usually have similar values amongst the 6 operators, and it's quite boring to set all of them, one by one. A controller with an edit-all option would be very useful.
Old 5 days ago
  #604
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grasspike's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mastropiero View Post
It makes sense. FM programs usually have similar values amongst the 6 operators, and it's quite boring to set all of them, one by one. A controller with an edit-all option would be very useful.
Actually very rarely do they have similar values as they do different things depending on the algorithm being used. They could be a modulator or a carrier and might feed back into something else. All of those things require different values often far different values
Old 5 days ago
  #605
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robinkle's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by grasspike View Post
You can't have it both ways. There are just way to many parameters on a DX7 style synth.

Either you have knob per function which creates a giant beast or you have some sort of pages and menus.
What do you make of this mockup then? No touch display, Not a giant beast, and very hands-on.



Click on link and zoom in.
https://i.imgur.com/1p1XCFG.jpg
Old 5 days ago
  #606
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grasspike's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by robinkle View Post
What do you make of this mockup then? No touch display, Not a giant beast, and very hands-on.



Click on link and zoom in.
https://i.imgur.com/1p1XCFG.jpg
That mock up is pointless because you can't do what Eno was talking about and what I whole hardily agree with.

You can't edit more than one parameter at a time and you also can't see the values of the other operators are while you are editing the single operator you have selected. In fact there is zero way to observe everything that is going on in the patch at once. Essentially you have pages and pages and pages to cycle through

What would be the advantage of this versus just calling up what you wish to edit in a menu and changing a value?

Sure you have a lot of faders and knobs but they are still just editing one page at a time.
Old 5 days ago
  #607
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robinkle's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by grasspike View Post
Actually very rarely do they have similar values as they do different things depending on the algorithm being used. They could be a modulator or a carrier and might feed back into something else. All of those things require different values often far different values
The parameters of the operators are allways the same, regardless of how they are used. The result may vary though, a carrier level controls amplitude, a modulator level controls the effect on the timbre. But either way it's the same level control that controls the output of the operator. It's how the operator is placed in the algorithm that decides what it does.
Old 5 days ago
  #608
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robinkle's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by grasspike View Post
That mock up is pointless because you can't do what Eno was talking about and what I whole hardily agree with.

You can't edit more than one parameter at a time and you also can't see the values of the other operators are while you are editing the single operator you have selected. In fact there is zero way to observe everything that is going on in the patch at once. Essentially you have pages and pages and pages to cycle through

What would be the advantage of this versus just calling up what you wish to edit in a menu and changing a value?

Sure you have a lot of faders and knobs but they are still just editing one page at a time.
I don't think it's a good argument saying it's pointless because it doesn't fit with what Eno says.

On this mockup, you can edit more than one operator at a time. There are six Operator-select buttons, one for each operator. Meaning, you can select multiple Operators and edit them simultanously. This is not possible on the jellinghaus.

You can quickly check each operator's settings by pressing the the Operator-Select buttons one at a time. No pages, just touch the button.

If I had to choose between a display with pages and menus. Or a hands on interface. You know where I'm getting at... I think most people agree.

All the controls cover one entire Operator. You just use the Operator-select button to switch to a different operator.
Old 5 days ago
  #609
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grasspike's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by robinkle View Post
The parameters of the operators are allways the same, regardless of how they are used. The result may vary though, a carrier level controls amplitude, a modulator level controls the effect on the timbre. But either way it's the same level control that controls the output of the operator. It's how the operator is placed in the algorithm that decides what it does.
I am guessing you have never actually programmed a DX7 before if you think the Values of the operators are "always the same"

They simply are not which is why a common control for all the operators makes no sense

But don't take my word for it. Check out these patch sheets from Brian Eno

https://cdm.link/2017/05/get-origina...rian-eno-1987/

Then tell me if they are "always the same" why he them all over the place from zero to 98 on the same patch
Old 5 days ago
  #610
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by grasspike View Post
You can't have it both ways. There are just way to many parameters on a DX7 style synth.

Either you have knob per function which creates a giant beast or you have some sort of pages and menus.

Likewise having the same knob control multiple things would require some type of menu system with page diving. It would also not allow you to edit two parameters at the same time if they are both on the same knob just on different pages on the menu. Brian Eno said in that interview that was the best thing about using that controller. The ability to edit multiple things at once
Here's some pics of a work in progress.
This one gives you relatively immediate physical access to more than 192 parameters of the MOD7 engine.
That's 32 parameters per page, 6 pages per bank.
Bank 7 is MOD7 in EXI1, Bank 8 is MOD7 in EXI2.
(The SYSEX for a synth in the first EXI slot differs from that same engine in the 2nd EXI slot).
The simpler synth engines can get away with 3 pages per EXI.
Each Kronos program has 2 synth engines, so you can mix and match.
I chose a half page approach, so you can mix and match pages from different banks.

The pics are screenshots from MidiDesigner.
Each view holds 2 pages, and each page has an upper/lower part.



The upper 32 parameters (8 knobs x 16 buttons x 8 sliders) are mapped to respond immediately to any MIDI controller with a similar 8 x 16 x 8 layout.
Of course I'm using the K's Control Surface with an ipad connected via its USB.

Change the page, and the physical knobs/sliders then control the current virtual knobs/sliders.



The ipad is mainly being used as a head's up display. No touchie. Mine's mounted at eye level on a mic stand above the Kronos.

The upper left page is controlled by the left 4 x 8 x 4 physical knobs, buttons, and sliders on the K.
Likewise for the upper right half.
The 8 mini knobs in the center of each (half) page are not continuous.
You only step through pre-determined values.
Therefore pressing the matching physical buttons cycle through these values.
The mini-knobs will be covered up by the buttons.

The bottom half is accessed by a SHIFT toggle (I'm using the KARMA Latch button here)...
...that's 64 parameters (32 x 2) ready to tweak at a shift and a glance. <== *shifty glance*



I think this template shows how to balance features against ease of use.
-- too many parameters
-- a jillion knobs vs a zillion menus
-- one knob for multiple uses
-- editing several parameters at once
-- clarity allowing inspired tweaking (flow!)

For example, you can shape Osc 4's Env in a split second by pushing sliders 1-4 all at once into "shape".
Then do the same for the Filter's ADSR.
Glide through Osc 3 Waveshapers while spinning the knob for WS Drive to audition all the timbres it creates.

The pages can be called up in any order.
So you can choose to work on Osc 1/2 and the Filter/Amp in one view.
Or tweak Main pitch and PCM parameters while tweaking FX parameters.

Knob 3 on the K will control whatever is showing on the current left page's knob 3.
If the current page is an Osc page, knob 3 spins through the Waveshapers.
If on the Filters page, it controls Filter B Freq.
If on the Filters page, but Latch/Shift is engaged, then knob 3 controls Amp Sus.



I'm pretty stoked about how it's all working out so far. It's just so fast and fluid and rewarding, just like sound designing on a knobby analog.

I hope the OP6 prototype will still undergo some UI design changes.
It could use a few more physical controllers.

Old 5 days ago
  #611
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robinkle's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by grasspike View Post
I am guessing you have never actually programmed a DX7 before if you think the Values of the operators are "always the same"

They simply are not which is why a common control for all the operators makes no sense

But don't take my word for it. Check out these patch sheets from Brian Eno

https://cdm.link/2017/05/get-origina...rian-eno-1987/

Then tell me if they are "always the same" why he them all over the place from zero to 98 on the same patch
I've had DX7II, Nord Modular G2X, Kronos and SY77, now TG77, Reface DX, Sammich FM and MODX. FM is my thing mate.

The operator parameters doesn't change. An operator level is allways operator level regardless of it being modulator or carrier. Meaning you can have identical controls for all of them. The effect of what each operator does, depends on the algorithm. Sometimes they are modulator, and sometimes they are carrier.

As you can see on the link you shared. You have all the operators lined up at the top. And to the left, you see all the parameters. Which are the same for each Operator. The values vary offcourse, and the algorithm connects the operators together in different formations.

The mockup I made, you have hardware control of all the parameters of a single Operator. You can check yourself. And you can use the operator select-buttons to select which operator you want to edit. one button and you're there. It can't be simpler.
Old 5 days ago
  #612
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Somebodyperson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by robinkle View Post
Thats’s yesterdays conclusion. This issue has been resolved with several mockups posted in this thread.

You don’t need a physical control for every operator. You need controls for one operator, and switches to select operator. It actually would work better, allowing you to edit more than one operator simultanously which speed up the process depending on what you do.
That is how the programmer for my DX21 works...although they offer one that has individual controlls for each...it was like 4 times the price.
Old 5 days ago
  #613
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robinkle's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebodyperson View Post
That is how the programmer for my DX21 works...although they offered one that has individual controlls for each...it was like 4 times the price.
There is a programmer for the Reface DX also, that has controls for one operator, with operator select-buttons. I really like that approach.
Old 5 days ago
  #614
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grasspike's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by robinkle View Post

As you can see on the link you shared. You have all the operators lined up at the top. And to the left, you see all the parameters. Which are the same for each Operator. The values vary offcourse, and the algorithm connects the operators together in different formations.

The mockup I made, you have hardware control of all the parameters of a single Operator.
You can check yourself. And you can use the operator select-buttons to select which operator you want to edit. one button and you're there. It can't be simpler.[/QUOTE]

So you are saying the Parameters are constant and never change but then say the values vary, which most people would logically mean that when you edit the values of a parameter you have in fact changed that parameter.

For example my car has a parameter called speed. In your world view when that parameter is 100kph and when it is 1kph ot is still exactly the same. In the real world one is going pretty fast and the other barely moving

Which is also why your mock up is pointless as it's just a page system as you can't practically edit more than one operator at a time unless they are going to have the same parameters.

You also again can't see the values of each parameter of each operator at once. That is no better than menu diving
Old 5 days ago
  #615
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robinkle's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by grasspike View Post
You can check yourself. And you can use the operator select-buttons to select which operator you want to edit. one button and you're there. It can't be simpler.

So you are saying the Parameters are constant and never change but then say the values vary, which most people would logically mean that when you edit the values of a parameter you have in fact changed that parameter.

For example my car has a parameter called speed. In your world view when that parameter is 100kph and when it is 1kph ot is still exactly the same. In the real world one is going pretty fast and the other barely moving

Which is also why your mock up is pointless as it's just a page system as you can't practically edit more than one operator at a time unless they are going to have the same parameters.

You also again can't see the values of each parameter of each operator at once. That is no better than menu diving
I don't think you understand what I'm saying.

By parameter, I mean: Level, Coarse, Ratio, LFO rate, etc.
By value, I mean: 56, 34, 1, 99, 67 etc.

All operators have the same set of parameters regardless of their position in the algorithm. But each operator holds it's own unique parameter values. Meaning Operator 1 can have Level at 21, operator 2 can have Level at 75. But one of the operators may be a modulator, the other may be a carrier.

There are no pages. It's not a book or a touch screen. It's a physical front panel (illustration). The panel shows all the operator parameters and it's values. One operator at a time. You can quickly see the values of other operator parameters by simply selecting a different Operator.

If you want to know the parameter values of Operator 2? Press the Operator 2 select-button. It's that simple. No menus, no pages, just a click of a button.
Old 4 days ago
  #616
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Somebodyperson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by robinkle View Post
There is a programmer for the Reface DX also, that has controls for one operator, with operator select-buttons. I really like that approach.
Ok not 4 times the price....but 2 and a half times the price.


http://synthark.com/Products/MSP-X10.html


I bought the cheapest one.
Old 4 days ago
  #617
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robinkle's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebodyperson View Post
Ok not 4 times the price....but 2 and a half times the price.


http://synthark.com/Products/MSP-X10.html


I bought the cheapest one.
Never seen that one before. It will speed up the process for sure.
Old 4 days ago
  #618
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Somebodyperson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by robinkle View Post
Never seen that one before. It will speed up the process for sure.
The dude is very patient when asking questions and customising your order.

Although the programmers dont look as "professional" as some others, the customer service and price point will have me always coming back to him.
Old 4 days ago
  #619
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Mastropiero's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by grasspike View Post
I am guessing you have never actually programmed a DX7 before if you think the Values of the operators are "always the same"
I’ve programmed FM synths for decades and there are many scenarios you need to set exactly (or almost exactly) the same parameters on more than one operator. The typical example here is a strings ensemble using algorithm number 5, or an additive organ sound by using algorithm number 32 (on the DX7).
Old 4 days ago
  #620
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Mastropiero's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by psionic11 View Post
Here's some pics of a work in progress.
l
Guys, posts like this one are the main reason GS is still the best synth-related site on the Internet.

Thank you Psionic.
Old 4 days ago
  #621
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mastropiero View Post
Guys, posts like this one are the main reason GS is still the best synth-related site on the Internet.

Thank you Psionic.
Thanks for that =)

Sometimes GS is like a punk band... you gotta sift through a lot of angst and issues and crappy songs. But once in awhile you get an epic song that makes it all worth it, for awhile at least.
Old 4 days ago
  #622
Lives for gear
I should mention that the template I posted above is gear agnostic.

generic MIDI controller + MD's pedalboard + random MD synth template =

knobby controller with head's up display of any given synth

Even the FS1r.
Old 4 days ago
  #623
Gear Nut
 
rylos's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by robinkle View Post

I disagree. Pages, menus, irratable lag and small text and small soft buttons, sucks the creativity right out of you. Hands-on physical control or go home. I have MODX, I've had Kronos. When making music and programing on a touch surface or with a mouse, makes me consider tossing the whole project. Some people may like spending time on a display and have the patience to do it, but it's a creativity killer for most people.

Good thing it doesn't need to be a Jellinghaus to be intuitive, and it doesn't need a touch display either. It could be a more efficiently designed hardware interface.

Exactly.

The minimum for me is one-on-one control, responsive (no perceptible lag), and being able to have the controls be immediately & seamlessly at the new values when calling up a preset patch, so that when you call up a patch, you're ready to roll.

When I started using my controller I was quite surprised by how much more expressive my control over the sound became. I was getting dynamics in the sounds that I'd always dreamed of doing, but never thought that I could. Turns out that when you use menus, you have to mentally task switch between a music frame of mind, and a more analytical frame of mind, which really does kill the mood, and expecting to play the sounds with one hand while playing notes with the other just won't work.

I was still stuck with the instrument itself (DX7IID) not updating it's attack & decay parameters until the next note is struck, but at least it lets you have real-time control over the frequency & modulation values.
Old 4 days ago
  #624
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matt pinchin's Avatar
I think the design korg have already shown is the final design and it aint gonna change so all these design ideas and arguments are for nowt
Old 4 days ago
  #625
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robinkle's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt pinchin View Post
I think the design korg have already shown is the final design and it aint gonna change so all these design ideas and arguments are for nowt
What's the meaning of this?
Old 4 days ago
  #626
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Groundhog Day's Avatar
 

As long as it nails Lately Bass.
Old 4 days ago
  #627
Here for the gear
 

I'll be checking out what it does better than the DX7 while not being a step backwards. A pitch envelope for individual operators instead of a global one would be the best improvement I can imagine.

As for the UI, I only hope it is as good and logical as in the original DX7.
Old 4 days ago
  #628
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asynchro_nous's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by purplemartin View Post
A pitch envelope for individual operators instead of a global one would be the best improvement I can imagine.
Oh yes.
Old 4 days ago
  #629
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grasspike's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by robinkle View Post
I don't think you understand what I'm saying.

By parameter, I mean: Level, Coarse, Ratio, LFO rate, etc.
By value, I mean: 56, 34, 1, 99, 67 etc.

All operators have the same set of parameters regardless of their position in the algorithm. But each operator holds it's own unique parameter values. Meaning Operator 1 can have Level at 21, operator 2 can have Level at 75. But one of the operators may be a modulator, the other may be a carrier.

There are no pages. It's not a book or a touch screen. It's a physical front panel (illustration). The panel shows all the operator parameters and it's values. One operator at a time. You can quickly see the values of other operator parameters by simply selecting a different Operator.

If you want to know the parameter values of Operator 2? Press the Operator 2 select-button. It's that simple. No menus, no pages, just a click of a button.
Again despite your claims otherwise your mock up is a page system. Operator 1 is a page Operator 2 is a page and so one.

You have to cycle through 6 pages of operators to edit a patch. That is tedious and pointless and has no ability to visually see the entire patch at once you have to constantly switch back and forth between the pages.

Your system is exactly what is used in many digital mixers where you flip back in forth between various fader banks. Having logged tens of thousands of hours, I can tell you from real world experience 6 pages of those would be a nightmare

For some reason you are also using both faders and knobs to enter numeric values. Are the faders going to be motorized between patches or pages? If not what is the point? Then you have the issue of if they are motorized that creates a lot of noise as they all flip at once. Which means on a stage that noise will be picked up by mics especially if there is a vocal mic for the keys player.

If these faders are not motorized you run into the issue where the displayed value shows say 97 but the fader is at 4. So how do I get to 75? If I go to pull up fader it will jump from 97 to 4.

Presonus used to have that issue with their digital mixers that lacked motorized faders. It was a real pain.

The whole system just seems pointless when you could have everything on a touch screen with a few buttons
Old 3 days ago
  #630
Gear Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paranoia View Post
when the controller is bigger than the synth

Hah. That looks so spinal tap. I'm almost 99% sure someone in the UI synth-design verse, has devised a better interface. You can do away with less (looking at manufacturers reading this thread). Sacrificing that much real state in this day and age isn't efficient.
You can have a fifth of the controllers. With each knob having a small lcd beneath them to denote parameter name and value.
Have a simple paging up/down page system with with each knob lcd changing to the next set of ops/parameters along with parameter value. So you can access a sub-set of operators at a time. To top things up, once finished programming a patch, have an extra button that would change the page to a blank page with assignable parameters you'd change in real time.
The idea is to make things as efficient as possible. Reducing the amount of pages to sort through to access an individual parameter. That's what I want with FM control. Even if I know what parameter to change, I would rather browse as few pages as possible to access it.

Things don't need to be highly constrictive or over the top. Make UI designers earn their $
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