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Everyone is a musician
Old 5 days ago
  #241
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12tone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by IncarnateX View Post
You are not going anywhere with me with that prefix, especially if you will not tell what it is everyone knows apart from that it changes through time.
Everyone knows a musician is someone who plays an instrument or is a composer.

Am I missing something here?
Old 5 days ago
  #242
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IncarnateX's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
Everyone knows a musician is someone who plays an instrument or is a composer.

Am I missing something here?
Maybe, lets see. Here is from the quotes


"1. a person who plays a musical instrument, especially as a profession, or is musically talented. 2. any person, whether professional or not, skilled in music."

Who plays an instrument, Yes. A composer? Doesn’t say. Could it be more than this? Yes, any person who is musically talented or skilled in music pro or not. Maybe composers are included here, but so is everyone else “skilled in music”, which could mean a lot.

"a composer, conductor, or performer of music"

Composer, yes, but also a conductor. And then the performer issue, which I took for granted implied DJs, but maybe it was just instrumentalists?


"a person who is skilled in playing music, usually as a job"

What does “skilled in playing music“ here cover? Maybe I can find room for my DJs here? They are kind of skilled in “playing” music, are they not?


"A musician is a person who plays a musical instrument as their job or hobby."

Very definitive but does a composer or conducter or DJ fit that bill?

So, no, I do not think your def offers more clarity than the others beyond being a frame that works enough for you to go the baker and not a musician to buy your bread. Frames work for all practical purposes. This does far from mean they are well defined.
Old 5 days ago
  #243
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spaceman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by IncarnateX View Post

"a person who is skilled in playing music, usually as a job"

What does “skilled in playing music“ here cover? Maybe I can find room for my DJs here? They are kind of skilled in “playing” music, are they not?
.
And what is a person ? If my cat walks on the keys of my piano and produces a nice melody, doesn't that makes him/her a musician ? And what is playing ? What is skill ? And If I'm good at playing with the tuning knob of my radio to find a good song, doesn't that count as "playing music" ? And what is music ? And what is "what is" ? What is a question ? What am i ? Where am i ? Why am i writing this ?

The reason the dictionnary offers multiple definitions is that they assume most people reading them are intelligent enough to understand that the definitions are not mutually exclusive. For example saying that a composer is a musician doesn't not imply that they are saying performers aren't musicians, even though they are mentionned on the following definition and not the same phrase.
Also they assume that most people understand that "playing" refers to playing what is considered a musical instrument, and not playing a chess game for example. That is why the definitions do not go into excrutiating details.

PS: and no, at basic level, a DJ is not a musician. It is a job related to music, like music critic, or music instrument vendor, but it is not the same as bein a musician. However, at very high levels of competence, some of them could be considered musicians because they are not playing the songs anymore, they are re-interpreting them.

There is such thing as a minimum amount of criterias you need to fit before most people, even lay people would come to consensus thatn you fit the definition of a musician ( whether a composer, a conductor, or an instrument performer), even a terrible one. Even vague things usually have a certain consensus on what is the minium requirements they need to have to fit the definition of what they are.
The mere fact that someone proclaims to be something, doesn't automatically makes it true.

Last edited by spaceman; 5 days ago at 10:26 PM..
Old 5 days ago
  #244
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IncarnateX's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by spaceman View Post
The reason the dictionnary offers multiple definitions is that they assume most people reading them are intelligent enough to understand that the definitions are not mutually exclusive. For example saying that a composer is a musician doesn't not imply that they are saying performers aren't musicians, even though they are mentionned on the following definition and not the same phrase.
Also they assume that most people understand that "playing" refers to playing what is considered a musical instrument, and not playing a chess game for example. That is why the definitions do not go into excrutiating details.
Well, I think I can agree to most if not all of that without violating my notion that the term musican is a frame that works for all practical purposes. However, it is still vague. Even if the definitons are not mutual exclusive, their scope of inclusion can be of very different degrees and thus vague.
Old 5 days ago
  #245
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IncarnateX's Avatar
 

Hey guys and gals. I just remembered it’s monday. That means we are facing a global event that everyone knows is much more important than any disussion of anything ever will be:

WATCHMEN!

YAY! And with cool soundtrack too, probably made by musicans...or something.

Goodnight and God bless ya!
Old 5 days ago
  #246
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mpresev's Avatar
I play keyboards, I create my melodies on the synths and I'm a solo electro muso.. Yes I'm a muso but not Beethoven muso..
Old 5 days ago
  #247
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Musician isn't an esteemed title in most places. I don't talk to certain family members because of the direction I chose in life with music. You'll get lots of flak and disapproval for it. And I'm not even a musician.

I find it very odd that when I say doctors can be hacks too, people disapprove. Medical professionals are not a protected class. Rather I feel more of a huge guilt trip from their defenders. Doctors can save lives, but they can also take. Careful what you wish for, careful who you defend.

I find it odd too that people disapprove over what's a musician and what isn't. It's not that important. It describes what you do. Be one or don't be one. Musician is the most devalued title of anything named in this entire thread. Only garbageman would compare. Do you think we're getting more culturally enriched? Are we creating greater art? Or maybe demons are churning out the trash we have today and burying anything worthwhile...



Praise be the spellcasters I suppose?
Old 5 days ago
  #248
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jbuonacc's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by IncarnateX View Post
... "a person who is skilled in playing music, usually as a job"

What does “skilled in playing music“ here cover? Maybe I can find room for my DJs here? They are kind of skilled in “playing” music, are they not?
seriously? i think we can all agree on what "playing" means in this context (assuming we're talking about a typical DJ).
Old 5 days ago
  #249
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IncarnateX's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuonacc View Post
seriously? i think we can all agree on what "playing" means in this context (assuming we're talking about a typical DJ).
Maybe. It does not say because it is vague. “Playing an instrument” would be less so.
Old 4 days ago
  #250
Gear Addict
 

If only it was like in Space 1999. You know where you are because everything has a lable on it telling you.
Old 4 days ago
  #251
Gear Nut
 

So this is the kind of thinking process I'm reading from various posters on this thread.

I press play on a loop in my DAW and although I have no real understanding about music in general I can make nice sounds and therefor I'm a musician (just not a great one like Beethoven)

This is a bit like !!!!

I can advise that someone take a paracetamol tablet for a headache and although I have no real understanding about medicine I can make a headache disappear so therefor I am a doctor (just not a great one like Christiaan Barnard )
Old 4 days ago
  #252
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I look at it like this:

I am a musician if I use an instrument to make/generate sounds or tones to create music. I do this with synths, drum machines, guitar, kalimba, electronic drum.

I am a composer if I use a DAW or sheet to design, or write, or arrange my music. Per the DAW I consider sample based music to be compositions. Or music written via some form of notation.

I am a producer if I create/manage the production of music made with either of the two above approaches.

I am a DJ if I play other people's music in order to entertain an audience, using either turntables or Serato platters, or something similar.

*** Please note: a turntablist is also a musician as they use the turntable itself as a musical instrument.

Having said this, I am a musician, composer, producer.

These are simple guidelines, so whats the big argument here?
Old 4 days ago
  #253
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Hi,

for me it's clearly defined and simple:

A musician is someone who performs or manipulates (plays) or invents elements of music with intention and by his imagination.

A problem is what are the elements of music. For me they are melody, harmony and rhythm.

Some examples:
A cat is not a musician because it doesn't create the sound with intention and by imagination.

A DJ is a musician if he manipulates the sound of the played music with intention and on the level of the elements of music.
Eg. if he rhythmically (rhythm) manipulates the volume or filtering of a sound or eg. if he transposes intentionally (melody, harmony) a loop.
If he only plays music/songs in a sequence he is not a musician because he doesn't manipulates intentionally one of the elements of music.

best regards
Old 4 days ago
  #254
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12tone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Behrmoog View Post
If he only plays music/songs in a sequence he is no musician because he doesn't manipulates intentionally one of the elements of music.
It's only a matter of time when algorithmic and AI music will invade the musical landscape. Who's the composer then?

The philosophical and lexicographical questions that would arise are much more complex than what's set in motion in this thread.

Can machines and robots be musicians? In the future you'll have animatronic bands capable of jamming anything imaginable.
Old 4 days ago
  #255
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
It's only a matter of time when algorithmic and AI music will invade the musical landscape. Who's the composer then?

The philosophical and lexicographical questions that would arise are much more complex than what's set in motion in this thread.

Can machines and robots be musicians? In the future you'll have animatronic bands capable of jamming anything imaginable.
Yes Eon is much better than the old random generators from the past

Machines and robots may be able to compose simplistic/repetitive music but as of 2019 can't be classed as musicians as that definition only applies to a person !

But who knows what will change in the future, man is able to destroy his planet so I have no doubt he's also able to destroy human creativity ! I'm sure humans will in time lose the ability to create/compose music once a computers algorithms can generate convincing structure.
Old 4 days ago
  #256
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I suppose you listen to jazz, opera, or classical music then?
I agree, there’s a lot of **** music out there for sure..

Quote:
Originally Posted by marcgood View Post
Quality does not equal popularity. Most country music is sh*t. Its sh*thole music. Mindless truck, drinking, and false machismo worship. Really just mindless dribble these days. Occasionally something good pops up, but it is rare. Rap is almost as bad in case anyone thinks I'm simply biased.

That force nasal twang is truly awful btw. Jeezus.

There - I said it. No retractions given.
Old 4 days ago
  #257
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IncarnateX's Avatar
 

Interesting topic this composer versus robot thing. A much more serious, far reaching and exciting question than the one at hand, imo.
Old 4 days ago
  #258
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metrosonus's Avatar
 

here's my two cents.. will someone pay you to come perform or score a film?

you're a musician if that's how you make most of your income. if it's only part of your income, you're semi professional or you just "play guitar" if all you do is a gig at local pubs every now and then or just play at home for fun.
Old 4 days ago
  #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicncars View Post
I suppose you listen to jazz, opera, or classical music then?
I agree, there’s a lot of **** music out there for sure..
If you care about music construction, you'd be hard pressed to find anything more impressive or more immersive than the various forms of Jazz found in each country, over the various years. That is an endless source of learning and inspiration.

But to your question, I can count on one hand the genres I don't listen to. My musical tastes vary wildly.

I have no patience for bad music however, so current Country and Rap for me is annoying at best. Sad to see the decline in Alternative stuff as well right now. Finding the good stuff is getting tougher.
Old 4 days ago
  #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metrosonus View Post
here's my two cents.. will someone pay you to come perform or score a film?

you're a musician if that's how you make most of your income. if it's only part of your income, you're semi professional or you just "play guitar" if all you do is a gig at local pubs every now and then or just play at home for fun.
You don't need to get paid to be a musician. Many master painters never sold their work and no money was made on it until long after they died, and yet they were artists nonetheless.
Old 4 days ago
  #261
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I agree with that definition, although I’d be more inclined to use term professional musician if you make your living that way.even if you’re a home/ hoppyist, I think you’re still a musician, just maybe not professional.

Quote:
Originally Posted by metrosonus View Post
here's my two cents.. will someone pay you to come perform or score a film?

you're a musician if that's how you make most of your income. if it's only part of your income, you're semi professional or you just "play guitar" if all you do is a gig at local pubs every now and then or just play at home for fun.
Old 4 days ago
  #262
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I’ve pretty much stopped looking for new good music. I’ve got over 3000 cds though. Plenty of music to listen too, although, to some, I’m just old and crotchety living in the past. That suites me fine. Lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marcgood View Post
If you care about music construction, you'd be hard pressed to find anything more impressive or more immersive than the various forms of Jazz found in each country, over the various years. That is an endless source of learning and inspiration.

But to your question, I can count on one hand the genres I don't listen to. My musical tastes vary wildly.

I have no patience for bad music however, so current Country and Rap for me is annoying at best. Sad to see the decline in Alternative stuff as well right now. Finding the good stuff is getting tougher.
Old 4 days ago
  #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicncars View Post
I’ve pretty much stopped looking for new good music. I’ve got over 3000 cds though. Plenty of music to listen too, although, to some, I’m just old and crotchety living in the past. That suites me fine. Lol.
You really must listen to The LACs (short for "Lazy [email protected]@ Crackers"), given your underestimation of creativity in country music.

There's all sorts of good stuff going on there, from bluegrass outward to even the most Nashville stuff; you're listening to the wrong things. I love truck driver country, for example. No-one tells a good story in songs any more as well as country music does, either.
Old 4 days ago
  #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by realtrance View Post
You really must listen to The LACs (short for "Lazy [email protected]@ Crackers"), given your underestimation of creativity in country music.

There's all sorts of good stuff going on there, from bluegrass outward to even the most Nashville stuff; you're listening to the wrong things. I love truck driver country, for example. No-one tells a good story in songs any more as well as country music does, either.
I think you meant to point this gun at me. I'm the one who dissed Country. And sorry, but this is by far the most formulaic crapfest aside from general Pop. Themes are predictable, the lyrics, the structure. Its like watching bad sitcoms made by the same fellow. Sure it has a place as things tend to. But honestly most of it is unimaginable, very very "basic", and simply bad. The worst offenders seem to be the "bro" and "party" Country stuff, as well as the female equivalent. I have many of the same complaints for Rap btw.

Sad thing is I like it when done well. But most of it now is not done well.

And again, the forced nasal twang is horrible. Combine that with autotune as much of the new stuff is likely to do and you are met with an audio assault of the worst kind. Whereas if delivered in an honest voice it would be a vast improvement, predictable themes and such ignored.

I will say I've heard absolutely lovely instrumentation and musicianship in Country, old and new. Unfortunately the rest of it tends to ruin the overall meal.

PS - I like Bluegrass, but don't consider that the be Country, although they cater to the same audience. No complaints there from me. Good stuff.
Old 4 days ago
  #265
Gear Nut
Musician = somebody who makes a living creating music.
Hobby musician = somebody who plays at least one instrument, is making music mainly for fun and is not, or almost not paid for it.

I don't consider myself a musician. I'm just someone who loves to use electrically powered devices to make sounds.
Old 4 days ago
  #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
It's only a matter of time when algorithmic and AI music will invade the musical landscape. Who's the composer then?

The philosophical and lexicographical questions that would arise are much more complex than what's set in motion in this thread.

Can machines and robots be musicians? In the future you'll have animatronic bands capable of jamming anything imaginable.
My thoughts:

1. AI is generally very overrated. It should be called FI, Faked Intelligence. And at the core it's just a rule-based statistic.

2. Music produced/created by machines and not by humans is useless. It has no cultural value. It will take some time for people to realize this (certainly not yet ).

3. My definition of a musician would still be correct.
If someone uses an algorithm to manipulate or invent elements of music (melody, harmony, rhythm), according to his intention and imagination, he would be a musician.

best regards
Old 4 days ago
  #267
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I would consider music created by machine to be a novelty. Once it starts cranking out hits, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Behrmoog View Post
My thoughts:

1. AI is generally very overrated. It should be called FI, Faked Intelligence. And at the core it's just a rule-based statistic.

2. Music produced by machines and not by humans is useless. It has no cultural value. It will take some time for people to realize this (certainly not yet).

3. My definition of a musician would still be correct.
If someone uses an algorithm to manipulate or invent elements of music (melody, harmony, rhythm), according to his intention and imagination, he would be a musician.

best regards
Old 4 days ago
  #268
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You can’t be over 28 making pop music these days, so then you move over to country and find your drawl or twang. It’s being put out to musical
Pasture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marcgood View Post
I think you meant to point this gun at me. I'm the one who dissed Country. And sorry, but this is by far the most formulaic crapfest aside from general Pop. Themes are predictable, the lyrics, the structure. Its like watching bad sitcoms made by the same fellow. Sure it has a place as things tend to. But honestly most of it is unimaginable, very very "basic", and simply bad. The worst offenders seem to be the "bro" and "party" Country stuff, as well as the female equivalent. I have many of the same complaints for Rap btw.

Sad thing is I like it when done well. But most of it now is not done well.

And again, the forced nasal twang is horrible. Combine that with autotune as much of the new stuff is likely to do and you are met with an audio assault of the worst kind. Whereas if delivered in an honest voice it would be a vast improvement, predictable themes and such ignored.

I will say I've heard absolutely lovely instrumentation and musicianship in Country, old and new. Unfortunately the rest of it tends to ruin the overall meal.

PS - I like Bluegrass, but don't consider that the be Country, although they cater to the same audience. No complaints there from me. Good stuff.
Old 4 days ago
  #269
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mildheadwound's Avatar
Can a person who gives blowjobs be considered a fellatiost? Mmmmm - yeah... in my books. What about outsider art? Basquiat, Darger, or any countless artist, without formal training. No offence meant, but even in a pathetically rigid medium as music, there is no advancement without exploration. Something that wouldn’t even exist, at this point, without deviations from the norm.

Is someone good at sequencing a musician? What if i have great wind control, but a crappy embouchure, barely capable of balancing a spoon on my chubby upper lip, let alone form fitting a double reed between my lips? What if my timing is off, but i’m a genius at chord theory?

To me, the biggest fail, in this argument is the limits of the word, ‘musician’, which has all the temerity, as ‘artist’, ‘driver’, and, ‘slut’... er, ‘influencer’.

Yes, there’s different levels of all these careers, but that doesn’t necessarily negate everything below a certain point.
Old 4 days ago
  #270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicncars View Post
I would consider music created by machine to be a novelty. Once it starts cranking out hits, though.
Why should I listen to music created by machines?
Don't get it.
It has no value. They cannot tell me something.
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