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Everyone is a musician
Old 5 hours ago
  #571
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by shreddoggie View Post
If an infinite number of code monkey's were operating an infinite number of Ableton instances (with Push controllers) and using an infinite number pencil tools on an infinite number of piano rolls with an infinite number of virtual instruments for an infinite length of time, they would never compose the Brahms violin concerto.

Probably not, but those are pretty inherently inexpressive and limited.

Stringed instruments are a naturally expressive instrument. Pencil tools and push controllers aren't. You have to go to something like a MIDI guitar, or even a continuum (which is still limited in resolution) or a theremin to get the level of expression required.

However, you can program these kinds of expressive passages into software. It's just that nobody really focuses on it.

Music is much more than a collection of notes. It's the squeaks in the violin. If those squeaks weren't there, if it was just harmonic spectra of a violin at a single position then it wouldn't sound like a violin - it would sound like something else. That's why we have to have 50 gigabyte sample libraries, the level of harmonic spectra change is just way too high.... Physical modelling is the answer to this, but it's still stuck in academia. However, a lot of the reason is because again, the lack of controllers capable at reproducing these nuances even with physical modeling to the point you have to re-create a digital version of the instrument controller (and still failing because until very recently anything beyond 8 bit encoders is crazy expensive).

So basically at this point, you're stuck with coding the physical models directly or dividing them into subsections that can be controllable by standard physical controls.
Old 4 hours ago
  #572
Lives for gear
 

Or you have the problem that now that you’ve properly modeled some of the complexity of the physics of the instrument you are modeling, it takes the skills of an increasingly small set of players to use effectively.

So the pressures of commercial synth-making, which like everything else focuses on the largest possible market, reduce the incentive to go deep with the techniques.
Old 4 hours ago
  #573
Lives for gear
 
IncarnateX's Avatar
 

I have an opinion too. A true musician loves music and his fellow musicans and would never ask himself whether they are inferior or superior to him, use it too promote himself on the internet or to display contempt for other’s preferences, tastes and skills. People who do that are called “losers”, not musicians. No, instead he/she will just say: “Let’s play”, and this is basically what it takes to be a musician. So yes, there are true musicians, but you ain’t gonna find any around threads like this.
Old 3 hours ago
  #574
Gear Guru
 
henryrobinett's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by IncarnateX View Post
I have an opinion too. A true musician loves music and his fellow musicans and would never ask himself whether they are inferior or superior to him, use it too promote himself on the internet or to display contempt for other’s preferences, tastes and skills. People who do that are called “losers”, not musicians. No, instead he/she will just say: “Let’s play” and this is basically what it takes to be a musician. So yes, there are true musicians, but you ain’t gonna find any around threads like this.
First of all I never stated a superior sense. There’s no superior to being a musician or not being one. One either is it isn’t. There’s no value placed in that.
Old 2 hours ago
  #575
Gear Head
 

There is no doubt that making convincing Daffy Duck sounds with turntables takes practice and skill. Which made me wonder: are WWE protagonists martial artists?
Old 2 hours ago
  #576
Lives for gear
 
12tone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cognistudio View Post
Which made me wonder: are WWE protagonists martial artists?
Not anymore than Robert De Niro is a gangster.
Old 2 hours ago
  #577
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by IncarnateX View Post
A true musician loves music and his fellow musicans and would never ask himself whether they are inferior or superior to him
Until it's time to audition people for his band, at which point he will ruthlessly categorize people by how good of a musician they are, never mind the true lover of music stuff.
Old 1 hour ago
  #578
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by realtrance View Post
Or you have the problem that now that you’ve properly modeled some of the complexity of the physics of the instrument you are modeling, it takes the skills of an increasingly small set of players to use effectively.
Perhaps, but I think it's within the realm of most decent keyboardists or touch pad players to do convincing physical model playing.

You have to understand that a huge amount of these models are actually quite good. There's nothing scientifically holding them back per se on a theoretical level.

However, the effective resolution of a tablet point to point is 14 bits for a top of the line tablet, mostly 8 bit... And this gets worse as the screen gets larger. MIDI is only 7 bit. With MIDI you can stack CCs and get 14 bit resolution but few controllers will actually encode this. Compared to the models that will be able to use 32 or 64 bit floating point resolution internally that's a really big gap. And you don't get anywhere near "natural" levels of states physical objects can be in until you have those kinds of bit depths. 16 bits gets close, 24 bits get closer (and very good), and that's basically the limit of electronics today.

For years controller (and plugin) manufacturers have hid this by just interpolating the slew deltas.. Sneaky bastards. :P Same with your fancy automation consoles...

Even in your DAW.

I've searched high and wide for a TRUE high resolution controller to no avail. It might be worth it to run CV and use a CV ribbon controller mapped to a VCA through a DAC like silent way did to get around this limitation...

Last edited by systematika; 1 hour ago at 07:39 AM..
Old 10 minutes ago
  #579
Quote:
Originally Posted by systematika View Post

Tone, timbre, and rhythm is all you need to make music. If you write it, then you are a musician. Even more so, you are a composer which requires you to understand placement of different instruments' timbres and a higher level of understanding generally. And that is very, very, hard to do effectively even in a computer, which is probably the most expressive instrument available.

I've read and reread this statement. Not sure what you mean by the last sentence.
Well oiled composers working with traditional orchestral instruments have probably got second nature with how timbres combine, blend, and the various registers the instruments occupy. If it's very hard to do, they need some more schooling and more practice. Yep, some of you may want to cover your ears and go la la la la la real loud or blink past this part because I'm gonna say it again.

Practice.

It may be hard to do with a computer, if the composer has no actual instrument experience or skills to speak of and they've never heard the real instruments, only samples in a computer that apes them. But IMO the only way a computer could be the most expressive instrument available is if the composer has no skills on traditional instruments and the sample counterparts are all that's available to him. Or said composer knows no other humans that play the actual instruments and will never be able to find or gain access to any. IOW, it might be hard to do with only a computer compared to having a broad understanding of the real instruments or the ability to play a few of them, even and especially the piano.


Or are you saying that a computer is the most expressive instrument available to any composer anywhere regardless of what other instruments might be available to them or what their skills with them might be... bar none?

The device the gentleman in the vid is demonstrating is interesting. But it in no way compares to the expressive potential of a competent pianist at the piano, or of a good conductor in front of a good orchestra, from what I've heard. And I think the conductors that told him that they like to conduct the first movement of Beethoven 5 in one were pulling his leg, I hope they were. Bernstein and Barenboim certainly don't. I've played the piece many, many times as a violinist in various orchestras. Never for a conductor that took it one beat to a bar. Not enough control at something approaching tempo giusto. And it could only work if the goal is to race through the piece at a tempo it's very unlikely Beethoven ever intended, or that does the music any service. That device's best use is probably something quite different from what he's trying to do with it. And it may be quite valid artistically, but that doesn't mean he's a musician.
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