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Is the new Roland Fantom really anything new?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miscend View Post
On paper at least Kronos still has got the workstation crown. They don’t need to reply.
Only on paper tho. If you try both side by side, one feels like a mobile phone from the 90's, the other like a current smart phone.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #62
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Originally Posted by jbuonacc View Post
i'm drawing a blank... how is putting percussion on separate MIDI tracks a useful workflow technique?
If you don't know the answer you don't need more than 16 tracks.

And by the way, the stone old Fantom G had audio tracks besides 128 Midi tracks and it's overall sequencer power thus was VASTLY superior, for practical purposes, over the present Fantoms.

I'm also curious how far the editing capabilities of the actucal Fantom G midi sequencer go. Someone told me the only edits you can perfrom in the piano roll is delete notes. If that is true: can a (any) midi sequencer seriously underperform to a degree like that???
Old 3 weeks ago
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuonacc View Post
i'm drawing a blank... how is putting percussion on separate MIDI tracks a useful workflow technique?
I do this all the time in renoise, not just for percussion either but polys too (e.g. lower/upper split).

Means one can easily mute parts, sample seperately, add variations, use different meters, etc.

Depends on the sequencer really, but 16 tracks could be limiting.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #64
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16 tracks with split zones and kit-formats are not enough?

So what the critics basically are saying is that they cannot really argue their case, and the real point is that they want the Fantom but cannot afford it. I know the feeling, so who am I to take away their straws? And about sequence editing: Read the manual to get your answers. However, be aware that facts may spoil your efforts to diss it. Fair warning. I look forward to mine: NaNaNaNaaaNaaa! I caan afford it, I caan afford it!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coorec View Post
Only on paper tho. If you try both side by side, one feels like a mobile phone from the 90's, the other like a current smart phone.
In fact it's quite simple:

The Kronos, in sharp contrast to the actual Fantoms, can seriously be called a full workstation. After ten years of use it's still miles ahead of the actual Fantoms in workstation power, and not just on paper, but in practical use:

- the Kronos has the MUCH better overall sound offer over the actual Fantoms, covering all categories and styles, plus endless addon possibilites in a giant offer of of available instrument sound packages. The new Fantoms, in sharp contrast, have no B3 engine, and sound just miserable in that area, until S/N sounds with B3 patches would be put into it. The have second rated EP sounds (the Kronos first class ones), a lot of lacking quality in acoustic sounds (until s/n sounds would be added) and no FM engine at all.

- the Kronos offers endless possibilities to get any instrument sound you need on board, which you might still miss, via streamed user sampling. Sample YOUR favorite or owned analog synth into it? No problem. The system has the advantage of only using the headers of big library in memory, while streaming the rest. That means being able to add HUGE user instrument libraries, however you want and need them. The Fantom, in sharp contrast, is miserable enough not to offer ANY place for adding instrument sample libraries, neither by third party offers nor by users.

- The Kronos offers BOTH a midi sequencer and an audio sequencer (with 24bit audio quality). The midi sequencer UI is quite ooutdated, but concerning editing power it still seems to be ahead of the Fantoms, which offer no audio sequenceing at all.

These are just some main points. The actual Fantoms (compared to the old Kronos), with their limited sounds offer and limited functionality, may be nice performance synths (I like their UI!). But they are certainly no workstations in the advanced "one synth does it all" sense, which at the moment still is exclusively represented by the Kronos. And for this status, of not being more than nice performance synths with a 16 track midi sequencer (like the M1 1988) and limited midi editing, they are massively (and not just slightly) overpriced from my view.

I say that as former Fantom G owner, who DOES like many of the warm Roland synth sounds. But I won't be fooled again into something so much unfinished, and despite that so much overpriced. You can't seriously offer or buy "work in progress" like a finished product, while not even knowing or even guessing, what that product might include one day, or whenever that might be!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #66
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I agree with the sentiment that you expect workstations to be generous with features, you don't want that outlay to discover limitations.

Like Japanese sportsbikes - a great ride, but specs pr0n too.

Jupe X + MPC Live seems like a miles better deal to me, less I'm missing something.

I bought a very dinged Kronos for cheap. It's amazing knowing the depth is there, just that time is needed to explore it. Aside usual workstation features, the FM and VA are wonderful. Sampling miles ahead.. But I can't ever imagine being masochistic enough to use the sequencer!

Splits and kits are not the same as having seperate tracks. But mr moneybags can buy a few more fantoms when those limitations become evident or just use a DAW.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #67
Gear Maniac
I owned the Fantom G for a while. I still think it had the best UI of anything I’ve used. The ability to use a mouse was great and actually better then some of the more modern touchscreens IMO. The sequencer in the G was also terrific. I always wished they were going to issue an upgraded G with the Integra soundset. For me, that would have been superb. I have the Integra too. Incredible sounds but why oh why did Roland basically abandon it? The editor is rubbish and the app isn’t much better.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IncarnateX View Post
16 tracks with split zones and kit-formats are not enough?

So what the critics basically are saying is that they cannot really argue their case, and the real point is that they want the Fantom but cannot afford it. I know the feeling, so who am I to take away their straws? And about sequence editing: Read the manual to get your answers. However, be aware that facts may spoil your efforts to diss it. Fair warning. I look forward to mine: NaNaNaNaaaNaaa! I caan afford it, I caan afford it!
Now how funny is that:
- someone boasting to be able to waste money without getting proper value...

It seems singing "NaNaNaNaaaNaaa!" like four year olds fits that bill perfectly.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimknopf View Post
I'm also curious how far the editing capabilities of the actucal Fantom G midi sequencer go. Someone told me the only edits you can perfrom in the piano roll is delete notes. If that is true: can a (any) midi sequencer seriously underperform to a degree like that???
Oh, "someone" must have "hopes" that benefits his own agenda:


Old 3 weeks ago
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IncarnateX View Post
Oh, "someone" must have "hopes" that benefits his own agenda:



monsters inc room scene
If that menu is from the piano roll window, I'm glad to stand corrected!
Is it? I'm glad if the Fantom midi editing works as it should.

And concerning my hopes, there are two in this case:
- that the Fantom price-value relation gets much better by better Fantom content and functionality. I also seriously wish that for every Fantom buyer. Variety is good for the market.
- that this way my hopes for a Kronos successor might become more realistic. I really hope Korg gets some real pressure in that directions, and I'm a bit diasapointed, how much the present Fantoms are still lacking, to build up that pressure.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimknopf View Post
Now how funny is that:
- someone boasting to be able to waste money without getting proper value

I think singing "NaNaNaNaaaNaaa!" like four year olds fits that bill perfectly.
You keep a knockin' but you can't come in
You keep a knockin' but you can't come in
Your face is green of envy and you cannot win
Come back tomorrow night and try it again
Old 3 weeks ago
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IncarnateX View Post
You keep a knockin' but you can't come in
You keep a knockin' but you can't come in
Your face is green of envy and you cannot win
Come back tomorrow night and try it again
You seriously want to stay in the 4-6 year old role?
Just asking...
Old 3 weeks ago
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimknopf View Post
You seriously want to stay in the 4 year old role?
Just asking...
As long as your arguments against Fantom do not raise the level, yes .
Old 3 weeks ago
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IncarnateX View Post
As long as your arguments against Fantom do not raise the level, yes .
You can read some real arguments in the Kronos comparison above, and besides the midi editing case, I have not heard one single valid argument from you for the rest of all the Fantom weaknesses.

So if you want to raise the level, begin with your own.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimknopf View Post
You can read some real arguments in the Kronos comparison above, and besides the midi editing case, I have not heard one single valid argument from you for the rest of all the Fantom weaknesses.

So if you want to raise the level, begin with your own.
Give it up, sweetie. I do not let random kiddos on the internet tell me what is of value to me. I know it perfectly well, thanks.

Ciao bambino. Stay away from drugs. Well, at least the most dangerous of them.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimknopf View Post
You can read some real arguments in the Kronos comparison above, and besides the midi editing case, I have not heard one single valid argument from you for the rest of all the Fantom weaknesses.

So if you want to raise the level, begin with your own.
Why dont you just go back to overlooking weaknesses of one thing and strengths of something else and let us be happy about a proper workstation release.

Look, even people like you will profit from it.

Afterall its going to force Korg to upgrade their dated inbuild VSTs and clumsy sequencer in due time to be able to compete.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #77
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Oh yes, the Kronos comparison. First flaw is its premise that these biased and selective outlines should be of equal importance to every people under all circumstances. Helloo! .

Second, as far as my needs go, it is easy. I have a linear sequencer similar to Kronos' in my Korg M3m, and I don't like it. You can argue from now and till the end of the world, but it won't make me like it. Bought the pattern based Yamaha RM1x to rule the show instead but now the Fantom offers similar and varied ways of composing. Other priorities would be that I prefer the Zen engine's randomization possibilities

Quote:
If this is “RANDOM” or “CYCLE,” each partial is sounded randomly or cyclically .
5 In the case of “RANDOM” or “CYCLE” when Structure 1-2 (3-4) has a setting other than OFF, partials 1 and 2 (3 and 4) are sounded as a pair, either randomly or in alternation .
5 In the case of “RANDOM” or “CYCLE,” velocity has no effect, but you’ll need to make settings for each partial so that the Velocity Range does not conflict .
to Karma, where I cannot change the notes but only edit auto selected parameters without software. In Fantom, I can at least do some pseudo Elektron stuff with same effect.

Then there are the analog filters, which is not pr. partial, but what I need for more specific analogish bass sounds than workstations usually provide.

However, the basic failure of all of the arguing lies with the idea that you can invalidate those personal preferences by any biased or even unbiased argument:

"I don't like the taste of fish"
"You should, fish is healthy for you"
"Eh???"

The day you understand sayings like "To each, his own", "Different strokes for different folks" and "horses for courses", is the day you have transcended the magical premise of the juvenile musician: "There are 7 billion people on Earth and all of them should think like me".
Old 3 weeks ago
  #78
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I hadn't even mentioned Karma as one more plus of the Kronos.

- I hear no argument about the Fantom's missing ability to deliver certain sound categories across different musical genres in nowadays quality - not even in Roland's own actual quality, as long as their Supernatural sounds are missing in essential categories.
- I hear no argument about the missing quality of B3s and EPs
- I hear no argument about missing FM synthesis
- I hear no argument concerning the missing audio sequencer besides the midi one
- I hear no argument concerning the completely missing instrument sampling in general
- I hear no argument concerning the addional ability to use streaming of big sample libraries from SSD, including user sampling

I say that while I DO see some great Fantom abilities like:
- well done and sturdy user interface with a nice controller field
- great sounding synth sounds (especially pads, leads and basses)

So I guess, it's just easier for Fantom enthusiasts to stay with general (and in part weirdly childish) blabla, while ignoring the basic facts of sonic power in direct comparison with a Kronos. Frankly, that behavior hasn't caught me by huge surprise.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimknopf View Post
I hadn't even mentioned Karma as plus of the Kronos.

- I hear no argument about the Fantom's missing ability to deliver certain sound categories across musical genres in nowadays quality - not even in Roland's own actual quality, as long as all the Supernatural sounds are missing.
- I hear no argument about the missing quality of B3s and EPs
- I hear no argument about missing FM synthesis
- I hear no argument concerning the missing audio sequencer besides the midi one
- I hear no argument concerning the completely missing instrument sampling in general
- I hear no argument concerning the addional ability to use streaming big sample libraries from SSD, inclusing user sampling

So I guess, it's just easier for Fantom enthusiasts to stay with general blabla, while ignoring the basic facts of sonic power in direct comparison with a Kronos. Frankly, that behavior hasn't cught me by huge surprise.
So even after my little lecture, you do not understand that I do not give a sht beyond my own reasons? What is this? ^^^ A Feature counting contest that is supposed to change my preferences and values though I couldn't care about it?

So you don't understand sayings like "to each, his own" and "different strokes for different people" but simply just repeat your false premise tautologically hoping the self-reinforcement will make it a universally true statement?

Plz spare me. It is magical thinking per definition as far as I am concerned.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimknopf View Post
I hadn't even mentioned Karma as plus of the Kronos.

- I hear no argument about the Fantom's missing ability to deliver certain sound categories across musical genres in nowadays quality - not even in Roland's own actual quality, as long as all the Supernatural sounds are missing.
- I hear no argument about the missing quality of B3s and EPs
- I hear no argument about missing FM synthesis
- I hear no argument concerning the missing audio sequencer besides the midi one
- I hear no argument concerning the completely missing instrument sampling in general
- I hear no argument concerning the addional ability to use streaming big sample libraries from SSD, inclusing user sampling

So I guess, it's just easier for Fantom enthusiasts to stay with general (and in part weirdly childish) blabla, while ignoring the basic facts of sonic power in direct comparison with a Kronos. Frankly, that behavior hasn't caught me by huge surprise.
Becasue why would i argue existing features?
And some of the missing things are already announced as additions to come, but can not be judged until they arrived:

Organ and EP sound engines are already announced.

Audio tracks/sequencing is already possible via pad sampling. They stream from SD.

Instrument sampling/user sampling is possible, but will be further integrated into the sound engine (as in FA or Juno series).

Just open your eyes, read whats written and dont do arguments you didnt even check on if they are right.

Kronos is an awesome machine, but old and it shows. Nothing wrong with that. As said, the current pressure from Roland will force Korg to bring an even better Kronos in time.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimknopf View Post
I hadn't even mentioned Karma as one more plus of the Kronos.

- I hear no argument about the Fantom's missing ability to deliver certain sound categories across different musical genres in nowadays quality - not even in Roland's own actual quality, as long as their Supernatural sounds are missing in essential categories.
- I hear no argument about the missing quality of B3s and EPs
- I hear no argument about missing FM synthesis
- I hear no argument concerning the missing audio sequencer besides the midi one
- I hear no argument concerning the completely missing instrument sampling in general
- I hear no argument concerning the addional ability to use streaming of big sample libraries from SSD, including user sampling

So I guess, it's just easier for Fantom enthusiasts to stay with general (and in part weirdly childish) blabla, while ignoring the basic facts of sonic power in direct comparison with a Kronos. Frankly, that behavior hasn't caught me by huge surprise.
Which is more fun to create with? Which has better connectivity and more connectivity? Which has a better chance of receiving significant updates. Kronos is yesterday, Fantom is today. I'm not loyal to any brand- what matters is workflow and the enjoyment of said workflow. Fantom crushes Kronos is that respect.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimknopf View Post
I hadn't even mentioned Karma as one more plus of the Kronos.
No, I did, because that matters to me, while your list does not. That is the point, mate.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRSC View Post
Which is more fun to create with? Which has better connectivity and more connectivity? Which has a better chance of receiving significant updates. Kronos is yesterday, Fantom is today. I'm not loyal to any brand- what matters is workflow and the enjoyment of said workflow. Fantom crushes Kronos is that respect.
As it is now, to me it is very simple: the stone old Kronos, which I play since a decade, still is of MUCH better overall use to me, than a present 2019 Fantom (which I like for some things) could ever be. That alone is quite telling in my eyes.
I could anytime play a complete gig, across different genres, with a Kronos alone, in excellent sound quality. With an actual Fantom, I would definitely not want to do that!

I miss too many kinds of sounds in satisfying sound quality on the Fantoms as they are. And I would extremely miss the possibility to get user instrument samples on board, whenever required or wanted. I would also miss the audio sequencer along with the midi one, mainly for backing track duties.

Concering future upgrades: I exclusively pay only for what I actually get meanwhile. I learned the hard way NOT to pay for anything until it is there, and would never again buy anything based on promises or announcements.

Concerning our kind of discussion:
this isn't about loyalty. If Korg doesn't deliver, and alternatives become better or more attractive than the Kronos to me, I will not hesitate to consider them. I'm not bound to any company whatsoever. Maybe some grown preferences (Moog, Sequential, Korg, Neumann etc.) based on user experience, at best, and they can change over time.

Concerning buying decisions.
I already stated expicitly, that I don's care one bit what others buy or don't buy. I just name, why I would or would not buy something, and of course everybody is free to use their money like they ever want to. This should be completely clear and self understanding. If someone wanted to buy a pebble for 5000 bucks, because he or she likes it so much, why should I even bother???
Old 3 weeks ago
  #84
Did I misread the specs? Sampler voices - 8?
That sucks!

I use hardware sequencers so having been told that the Fantom G has a great sequencer by @ Derp I wanted to see how the new Fantom stacks up. What a disappointment. I don't understand how taking away features is supposed to be considered an improvement.

16 tracks and only 8 sampler voices? Have we gone back in time? This was an impressive spec in 1990.

This isn't an improvement on a product it's a downgrade. Here buy less for more money. Shameful.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimknopf View Post
As it is now, to me it is very simple: the stone old Kronos, which I play since a decade, still is of MUCH better overall use to me
Now that is better, and it is a valid statement in so far you do not make analogies to everyone else before asking them.


Quote:
I miss too many kinds of sounds in satisfying sound quality on the Fantoms as they are. And I would extremely miss the possibility to get user instrument samples on board, whenever required or wanted.
Valid if you have heard the sounds. Cannot be anything else as long as we are dealing with your personal perspective.


Quote:
I would also miss the audio sequencer along with the midi one, mainly for backing track duties.
Valid etc.

Retain this form and you are playing it safe.

Quote:
If someone wanted to buy a pebble for 5000 bucks, because he or she likes it so much, why should I even bother???
Exactly. And remember one man's sht is another man's gold or how the saying goes.

I have a little saying of my own:

To the unskilled, every tool is a toy
To the skilled, every toy is a tool

or something, but typewriters do not write novels and all that. Better take that into consideration too.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #86
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It would of a great machine if it had KARMA
Old 3 weeks ago
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TS-12 View Post
It would of a great machine if it had KARMA
Well, to me, that would only be the case if they allowed editing of the notes from the front panel. Someone has made some great bucks on the Karma software's editing monopoly in this regard. It is a PITA for folks like me who do not like working with PC editors.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimknopf View Post
As it is now, to me it is very simple: the stone old Kronos, which I play since a decade, still is of MUCH better overall use to me, than a present 2019 Fantom (which I like for some things) could ever be. That alone is quite telling in my eyes.
I could anytime play a complete gig, across different genres, with a Kronos alone, in excellent sound quality. With an actual Fantom, I would definitely not want to do that!

I miss too many kinds of sounds in satisfying sound quality on the Fantoms as they are. And I would extremely miss the possibility to get user instrument samples on board, whenever required or wanted. I would also miss the audio sequencer along with the midi one, mainly for backing track duties.

Concering future upgrades: I exclusively pay only for what I actually get meanwhile. I learned the hard way NOT to pay for anything until it is there, and would never again buy anything based on promises or announcements.

Concerning our kind of discussion:
this isn't about loyalty. If Korg doesn't deliver, and alternatives become better or more attractive than the Kronos to me, I will not hesitate to consider them. I'm not bound to any company whatsoever. Maybe some grown preferences (Moog, Sequential, Korg, Neumann etc.) based on user experience, at best, and they can change over time.

Concerning buying decisions.
I already stated expicitly, that I don's care one bit what others buy or don't buy. I just name, why I would or would not buy something, and of course everybody is free to use their money like they ever want to. This should be completely clear and self understanding. If someone wanted to buy a pebble for 5000 bucks, because he or she likes it so much, why should I even bother???
You clearly are wanting it, which is why you're whining about it. These are today's prices for today's tech. You have to accept it and move on, or just buy it already, and maybe sell some old stuff you haven't used in a while and won't use. Fantom is priced fairly for what you get now- without the promise of updates. Even Montage (especially after today's update announcements) is fun to use. If you haven't noticed, workflow is king around here. Karma?- yeah, brilliant stuff- about 20 years ago

What's not clear to you about the Fantom's workflow(s)- especially in a studio? Just get it already.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRSC View Post
You clearly are wanting it, which is why you're whining about it. These are today's prices for today's tech. You have to accept it and move on, or just buy it already, and maybe sell some old stuff you haven't used in a while and won't use. Fantom is priced fairly for what you get now- without the promise of updates. Even Montage (especially after today's update announcements) is fun to use. If you haven't noticed, workflow is king around here. Karma?- yeah, brilliant stuff- about 20 years ago

What's not clear to you about the Fantom's workflow(s)- especially in a studio? Just get it already.
You really don't get, why I would never ever want to exchange something as powerful as the stone old Kronos, against something as halfbaked and incomplete as the blinking new Fantom???

If anything, I could well use something with Kronos abilities PLUS better overdrive, better UI (isn't the Kronos display already bigger than the Fantom's?, but could still be slightly bigger, with actual look and actual touch screen), better DAW intergration, and a better sequencer interface. So I am in the market for an upgrade (ready to pay good money for that!), not for a massive downgrade like the Fantom, which would just give me limited goodies in exchange for much heavier losses.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #90
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Well, one can have informed preferences or uninformed preferences, and as long as you do not make any damage, e.g. mis-info on the net, with your uninformed preferences, it is people's own business. If they complaint on the net, informed or uninformed, they should know the risk.

Actually my decision to buy Fantom came from two uninformed outbursts of mine. First I thought the clip approach meant that there was no song mode and stated it in the JPX thread that somehow made it an issue. Then I was corrected and took correction happily because it was great news.

Then I read the manual but overlooked the parameterguide and stated in the Fantom thread that it did not do the randomization stuff quoted above. I found out shortly after that I was dead wrong and corrected myself happily

When you sht your pants in public, it is often much better to apologize and clean up the mess asap than try to hide it by covering your eyes in it. No one is fooled by that if their eyes and noses work as intended. At least, it became a route to buying the new Fantom to me, and I will gladly sell out two thirds of my studio to get it, though it is not even necessary since I have my savings, and this is exactly what such should be for.
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