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Roland Fantom 6- 7 -8
Old 3 weeks ago
  #4741
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IncarnateX's Avatar
I see above that the save-debate still has some hick ups. To be frank, if we had heard that this should be such a great problem in the late 90s-early 00s, we would have had one helluva laugh if we compared it to the workstation problems of the time. Yeah, not everyone is old like me, but come on, this topic is a piss ant, and if this prevents you from making music with Fantom, you do not need a new save function, but a brain-transplant.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #4742
Lives for gear
 

It isn't stopping anyone making music, that comes extremely easy on Fantom and these Zencore boxes, it's just totally unnecessary extra work is all. Never mind the major contradiction it makes with the "modeless" claim that Roland pushed in marketing.

Maybe we should keep quiet so Roland doesn't think it is unacceptable to put hardware out in 2020 with decades-old functionality? I think most people buying expensive equipment today would like the bar to be a little higher than that. If they are going to claim modernity at least back it up in how it operates.

If Roland have fixed it in Jupiter X they agree it's an issue.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #4743
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Kraut's Avatar
 

Roland calls the Fantom a platform, and they have let us believe, that they are building upon it for considerable time.

Especially in case of platforms, I think it would be most beneficial to make a rough roadmap available. People know, that there might always delays and cancellations due to unexpected problems, and that is always disappointing, but still, I am much more afraid of such platform not getting even near of its potential in case of barren looking foundation not luring enough customers to warrant development time. I liken this situation to other kinds of platforms, such as game consoles.

If, for example, they would have told, that Variphrasing tech is a real possibility, I would have bought Fantom on a launch day.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #4744
Here for the gear
 
Paul71's Avatar
I kinda wish Roland had an OCD in charge of choosing what to implement in updates.
These would probably fall under the "pissant" category (tho I have never actually seen an ant piss, I am a believer):

1. Should be able to SHIFT and select multiple patterns at once to copy paste or delete

2. Should be able to SHIFT and move multiple patterns down/up/left/right with curser buttons

3. Should be able to DRAG patterns with finger in PATTERN UTILITY (OK I admit this is a stretch but wouldn't it be cool?)

4. Right now, when you are SAMPLING, you cannot access any other screen. No way to manipulate patterns when sampling because you cannot visit the PATTERN screen to select and play patterns realtime.

5. Give us AUDIO RECORDING on at least one track.

6. Should be able to switch AUDIO INPUT via SW1, SW2 or SW3. Right now it's a 3 stroke operation.

7. While in PATTERN EDIT, Fantom should automatically take us back to the main PATTERN screen when the RECORD button is pressed. Right now you just get a message that tells you to do that. Just take us there already.

8. Should eliminate "ARE YOU SURE" in PATTERN EDIT and replace with UNDO. (this one has a lot of fans so was surprised it didn't make it into 2.0)

9. TIME UNITS need to be visible at top of SONG screen. Sometimes a composer needs to match a song to a video or vice versa. Right now I have to use a stop watch.

10. STEP LFO needs a "reset to default" function. No elegant workaround for this so just give us the darned reset.

11. Give us a way to input numbers, like using pads on the G, so we can find tones without scrolling (thank you, by the way for implementing that feature when searching for partials).
Old 3 weeks ago
  #4745
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ZT Scheer's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Dairy View Post
You can continue saving the original obtuse way ...
You really are in love with the word "obtuse", lol.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #4746
Lives for gear
 

Obtuse Sensei, that's the characterisation it deserves

There are a ton of QoL improvements that can be made to Fantom, Paul71 just outlined a bunch. Any and every hurdle on a workstation should be identified and knocked down since its whole purpose is to condense and streamline music making.

Saying there was worse problems to contend with 30 years isn't really going to cut it for today, is it? I'm sure we could get all romantic about cars with no power steering, no central locking and roll up windows, but no-one in their right mind would want to go back to that would they? It might be fun for a day or two.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #4747
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ZT Scheer's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by IncarnateX View Post
I see above that the save-debate still has some hick ups. To be frank, if we had heard that this should be such a great problem in the late 90s-early 00s, we would have had one helluva laugh if we compared it to the workstation problems of the time. Yeah, not everyone is old like me, but come on, this topic is a piss ant, and if this prevents you from making music with Fantom, you do not need a new save function, but a brain-transplant.
I had a long conversation with a friend who was a Roland specialist for a number of years. He's virtually a historian of how "patch" saving has evolved in workstations over the decades, and especially how Roland's approach has evolved.

His perspective is something of an eye-opener. Suffice it to say that there are a thousand Matt Dairys in the world ... each with their own special "this is THE way" method they want Roland to implement NOW, and zero ability (seemingly) to understand anyone else's perspective. (I'm not trying to pick on you Matt, but you need to realize that there are a bunch of people out there, just as obstinate about their preferences as you are.)

Roland has used many different methods over the years, the current one being the latest evolution. Whatever way you go, you end up painting yourself into some corners ... either technically or in terms of workflow complications.

The Jupiter-X implementation of the "Scene plus Tones" scheme is bearing this out. You all of a sudden have a bunch of "Are you sure?" messages and prompts to deal with. Do you get anything more than a scripted version of the requirement to save both the Scene and its Tones? Not really ... just an exercise in hand-holding, with the attendant increase in the number of prompts one might have to deal with. And that's on an instrument with only 5 zones to deal with.

There are some methods by which you could have Scenes save everything, without the requirement to save (and rename) Tones in new user slots. However, they get a bit problematic in terms of keeping track of things. You have to create a more complex database structure, with an attendant increase in the complexity of how you search for Tones.

How ever many Scenes you have, you suddenly have that many possible variations of a Tone, possibly with the same name, scattered all over the "landscape", so to speak. That's potentially as much as times 16, although pragmatically you'd never realize something that awful, lol.

In the case of the Fantom it would also mean you'd need an additional 4096 slots for user Tones (or at least setting aside that many slots in the current user area of the library), and keeping those organized. That's not necessarily a huge thing in terms of the cost of memory, but it shows how you'd be asking for something more than a simple firmware change.

It's a bit similar philosophically to how security methods have to strike a balance between ease-of-use, technical feasibility, and efficacy. In musical instrument UI, it tends to be a balance between how many things you want the machine to do for you, and how many things you want to do (as in remembering, thinking about, or steps to be performed) yourself.

If you find things like "Are you sure?" prompts irritating, then you should want the design philosophy to trend toward less machine-made decisions, warnings ... or mandatory, scripted hand-holding methods. At the very least, you should have the ability to disable such "features". ABS is a great safety feature in automobiles - for instance - but it also prevents certain kinds of maneuvers that you might want to be able to perform, with good reason for not wanting to be prevented from doing so.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #4748
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DStep ATL's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoff View Post
Love his stuff. And perhaps a thank you to Roland for putting a release month out there so we are not left wondering.
What is teased for the next release?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #4749
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ZT Scheer's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Dairy View Post
Obtuse Sensei, that's the characterisation it deserves ...
You might be more careful to use it in its typical, definitive sense, rather than diving down the synonym hole. If you mean "stupid", it's better to just say stupid.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #4750
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basehead617's Avatar
I really am surprised at the pushback about saving temp changes to sounds within a scene.

I think of it just like we've all been working with VST instruments ITB forever...

When you load a project in a DAW (scene), the plugins are loaded with the state of the plugin when you saved. You may have started with a preset when you were making changes, but the project is loaded with your changes above and beyond the preset. The preset doesn't need to be saved. I'm pretty sure most interfaces will show the preset you were on in the 'browser' still, so you usually know which you started from, so if you wanted to just load the old version you'd just reload it.

This is controversial? Are you worried about where your DAW is saving its VST settings when it saves altered sounds? It doesn't really come up.. Do you also wish a DAW didn't save the sound you were working on in the save state?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #4751
Lives for gear
 

Ok my friends .I am no virtuoso on keys but the sequencer on the Fantom is the beez neez.

I have only had the beast for 2 months and my playing skills were ordinary at best.

I have just produced a song which is up on Spotify all on the Fantom except for the fancy fills
which we got off Splice.

The Fantom allowed me to play along with parts and in time.

Just started with the microscope editing which is a bonus. Roland stock sounds are workable
and with Zen core and a laptop will be massive sound creation.

I used Australias premier studio and I got results.

For me I am not worried about AT and even the motional pad. Not even the sampling and pads are being used.

She's my Mamacita by Marvin Nelson out now on Apple, Amazon, Spotify, Itunes.

Hope you like it.

Just shows what can be done in a production using the one platform.

Cheers
Old 3 weeks ago
  #4752
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DStep ATL View Post
What is teased for the next release?
Only the month of January. No features were mentioned.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #4753
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickknack View Post
She's my Mamacita by Marvin Nelson out now on Apple, Amazon, Spotify, Itunes . . . Hope you like it.
Let me get this straight. You're actually producing music with this thing??? Congrats! Link, please?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #4754
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by basehead617 View Post
I really am surprised at the pushback about saving temp changes to sounds within a scene.

I think of it just like we've all been working with VST instruments ITB forever...

When you load a project in a DAW (scene), the plugins are loaded with the state of the plugin when you saved. You may have started with a preset when you were making changes, but the project is loaded with your changes above and beyond the preset. The preset doesn't need to be saved. I'm pretty sure most interfaces will show the preset you were on in the 'browser' still, so you usually know which you started from, so if you wanted to just load the old version you'd just reload it.

This is controversial? Are you worried about where your DAW is saving its VST settings when it saves altered sounds? It doesn't really come up.. Do you also wish a DAW didn't save the sound you were working on in the save state?
Yes it suprisingly really is. But then when you think about it there is pushback against many improvements in various facets of society, as people can be so resistant to change.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #4755
Lives for gear
 
ZT Scheer's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoff View Post
... when you think about it there is pushback against many improvements in various facets of society, as people can be so resistant to change.
Not all change is improvement. I am resistant to any changes which I perceive to be of no value, or which bring with them too many negative consequences.

It's my opinion that most of the people clambering for this feature have not really thought it through, or perhaps view its utility through a very narrow, personal perspective, where only their personal preferences are of value.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #4756
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Let me get this straight. You're actually producing music with this thing??? Congrats! Link, please?
That was the link.

Get on Apple play, I tunes to view.

Cheers
Old 3 weeks ago
  #4757
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZT Scheer View Post
You might be more careful to use it in its typical, definitive sense, rather than diving down the synonym hole. If you mean "stupid", it's better to just say stupid.
It is stupid yes, very - but more so slow, difficult, unintelligent design.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZT Scheer View Post
Not all change is improvement. I am resistant to any changes which I perceive to be of no value, or which bring with them too many negative consequences.

It's my opinion that most of the people clambering for this feature have not really thought it through, or perhaps view its utility through a very narrow, personal perspective, where only their personal preferences are of value.
You are just stuck in the past it seems. It's been combed through thoroughly. If you don't want to use it, you don't have to. Most people are happy with the system taking care of saving what it is temporary work. Even the save all option is a major compromise. The scene should just save everything as standard so it actually sounds the same as what you left it at. Think of it as never powering off. Only an insane person would want their work to be wiped when they turned off the board. This is where we are at right now.

The right hand controls are every bit as pertinent to the scene as the left hand control are - probably more so. Why doesn't it save along with them? Seems dumb, and possibly a physical limitation of the board.

It is probably the same reason why you can't record automation with the cut off knob etc. Next you are going to tell us you prefer assigning a high resolution cut off knob to a crappy fader for automation recording? Neither makes sense. This stuff should be intuitive and seamless.

Are you saying the DAW is a stupid way of working? And that DAW users should be pestered with saving transient patch tweaks just so it doesn't wipe their work upon loading it next?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #4758
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ZT Scheer's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Dairy View Post
It is stupid yes, very - but more so slow, difficult, unintelligent design.
...
You are just stuck in the past it seems.
...
Only an insane person
...
The gist of most of your responses seem to always include some kind of insult. You might want to engage in some self-reflection regarding this kind of "logic".
Old 3 weeks ago
  #4759
Lives for gear
 
ZT Scheer's Avatar
Here's the first installment of my series on understanding how FX work on the Fantom. This "Part One" will probably not reveal much to Fantom users in this forum, but I am taking it a step-at-a-time.

Old 3 weeks ago
  #4760
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZT Scheer View Post
The gist of most of your responses seem to always include some kind of insult. You might want to engage in some self-reflection regarding this kind of "logic".
I don't see any insults here. I also don't see a single rebuttal to any point I've made regarding what we are actually talking about, so I'll assume you don't have any. You claim this has not been thought through, I disagree - it's all right there.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #4761
Lives for gear
 
ZT Scheer's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Dairy View Post
...I also don't see a single rebuttal to any point I've made regarding what we are actually talking about, so I'll assume you don't have any ...
You keep saying things like this, and then leap to self-serving conclusions. It's almost as if you don't read anyone's responses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Dairy View Post
You claim this has not been thought through, I disagree - it's all right there.
I find it telling that the Jupiter-X implementation of saving Scene+Tones uncovers precisely the kinds of issues I've raised. I don't think you are paying attention at all.

You say "it's all right there", but all I can see are a series of vaguely-expressed general imaginings of how something should be, without any detailed description of how they would pragmatically work. It's as though you think you've "designed a flying car", because you drew wings on a Subaru advertisement. You've done no such thing, literally or figuratively.

You have not thought through a design or a plan, you've outlined a fantasy. I've seen this phenomenon enough that I've tried to figure out where it comes from. I think it might have to do with too many procedural crime dramas or sci-fi shows, where they manage to be able to solve every problem in 60 minutes by just "writing a new program" ... or pulling out some (no-existent in the real world) whiz-bang lab equipment which magically decodes something in 10 minutes.

I'll bet that you've never had to plan out a UI or a decision-tree for an interface, and then work with hardware and software engineers to make it really exist. Most people haven't, so that's hardly makes me psychic. That doesn't discount the power of your imagination. It simply means that it's not tethered to anything in the way of real-world limitations.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #4762
Lives for gear
 

Enlighten us, please. Enough misdirection already.

If fact, just quote a post you've already made (or someone else made) that I've ignored on how this is a problem.....

(I'll wait)
Old 3 weeks ago
  #4763
Lives for gear
 

I see, a ninja edit that still fails to address the point yet again. More vagueness and misdirection. Anything but backing up your claims.

It's not fantasy. It is something that has been implemented in older synths already, like the JDXA, which you own, and have no problem operating... funnily enough. You never once complained about that did you, until this was brought up.

That's the way it should work. But Roland have made their bed, now they gotta lie in it. Looks like it is actually a physical problem. There seems to be a partition between the left and right hand controls. Why, who knows but it is a design boob and a straight up mockery of the "modeless" claim. Maybe it was some last minute hodgepodge thing.

No one is asking to scrap the save system as it is, just add a compromised solution to their botched implementation. That's the best they can do. A save all caters for anyone asking for that. The standard operation caters for those who want to do it themselves. Don't see how that is only looking out for my own interests...
Old 3 weeks ago
  #4764
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ZT Scheer's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Dairy View Post
Enlighten us, please. Enough misdirection already.

If fact, just quote a post you've already made (or someone else made) that I've ignored on how this is a problem.....

(I'll wait)
It's pointless to post once again, any number of issues which I and other have already raised, if you aren't paying attention.

You did not address the issue I raised regarding the Jupiter-X, for instance, despite my having mentioned it twice. Should I have to quote something which was posted almost immediately prior? This kind of nonsense is what makes it look like you are arguing disingenuously, or simply aren't paying attention.

And simply stating "Oh well they should [insert imaginary, undetailed, ungrounded in reality solution] ... blah, blah ... you're stuck in the past, and that's stupid, etc." is not a substantive reply.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #4765
Lives for gear
 
ZT Scheer's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Dairy View Post
...
It's not fantasy. It is something that has been implemented in older synths already, like the JDXA, which you own, and have no problem operating... funnily enough. You never once complained about that did you, until this was brought up. ...
How do you propose to know what I thought regarding the JD-XA prior to my having mentioned it? Wow, you're getting into some "I'm a mind reader" territory there, lol. The fact that I approach the JD-XA a certain way, given it's limitations, is really neither here nor there. I don't treat it as a multi-timbral device for instance. I prefer (almost exclusively) using it as a "mega-layer machine".

It would be a disaster for the Fantom to work like the JD-XA.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #4766
Lives for gear
 

So what is the problem with the Jupiter X? That it throws up more prompts? That's the big problem?? Seriously?

I would need to see it first hand but any prompts should go if they are not needed, just like every other unnecessary prompt on Fantom should go. (clue for Roland - if it is a prompt, it is unnecessary, and should go)

You are acting like this is some sort of impossible problem to crack. It is Roland that is putting up arbitrary barriers, not me. This is your big 'gotcha' (I hope not). Two seconds removing a line of code and it's solved.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #4767
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ZT Scheer's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Dairy View Post
... Two seconds removing a line of code and it's solved.
Another imaginary solution lacking any sense of genuine grounding in reality. You just demonstrated my earlier surmize regarding "just write a new program!" in TV shows, lol. Be honest ... you have zero idea how much code would need to be changed.

FWIW: You cannot possibly know how the JD-XA actually handles patch management. I cannot believe you'd actually suggest that as a "solution", lol. That would be another case where you simply make stuff up, having no genuine idea what you're talking about.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #4768
Lives for gear
 
ZT Scheer's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Dairy View Post
So what is the problem with the Jupiter X? That it throws up more prompts? That's the big problem?? Seriously?

I would need to see it first hand ...
You haven't even seen it first hand, and yet you're holding forth with how easy it would be to solve.

If that doesn't describe you in a nutshell ...
Old 3 weeks ago
  #4769
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZT Scheer View Post
It would be a disaster for the Fantom to work like the JD-XA.
Yeah, it would be a real disaster for a hardware workstation to operate the same way all software workstations have been for the last 20 years.

It has been a much requested feature for all DAW users over the last two decades for their DAW not to save all of their project when they hit save, hasn't it?

Tweaked patches can be reset with ease if you want to revert. They are protected on Fantom, even. No chance of losing anything.

I've had two JDXA's BTW. It just worked. No mental gymnastics involved. Still have a JDXI, that works the same way. Program is a program - not some splintered mess.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #4770
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ZT Scheer's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Dairy View Post
...
I've had two JDXA's BTW. It just worked. No mental gymnastics involved. Still have a JDXI, that works the same way. Program is a program - not some splintered mess.
How did you save an individual Part/Tone, Matt? Let's say you came up with a great analog bass sound with one voice of the analog section. How did you save that great bass sound so that you could find it easily (by name) and use it in other programs?

Or is the ability to save named Parts/Tones in a searchable library simply not of any value to you?
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