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Roland Fantom 6- 7 -8
Old 5 days ago
  #3061
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Dairy View Post
I am hoping for a new MC groovebox with a few more dedicated buttons and the screen from the Fantom to ameliorate the menu diveyness of it.
Fantom in a 2-3u would make me happy
Old 4 days ago
  #3062
Gear Head
 

XMOD2 in Fantom is the classic FM/DX7 FM engine with 1 Carrier and 1 modulator. With layers you can play in Fantom more Complex fm algorithm and classic FM sounds
A XMOD2 tone is a simple 4 operator FM algorithm and it is also possible to modulate the FM index using envelopes and Lfos through the Mod.
Old 4 days ago
  #3063
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ZT Scheer's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benis67 View Post
XMOD2 in Fantom is the classic FM/DX7 FM engine with 1 Carrier and 1 modulator. With layers you can play in Fantom more Complex fm algorithm and classic FM sounds
A XMOD2 tone is a simple 4 operator FM algorithm and it is also possible to modulate the FM index using envelopes and Lfos through the Mod.
Not sure if entirely true.
Old 4 days ago
  #3064
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realtrance's Avatar
 

My sense is that Roland's cross modulation is not carrier/modulator, but modulator/modulator, more like a variant of ring mod.
Old 4 days ago
  #3065
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by realtrance View Post
My sense is that Roland's cross modulation is not carrier/modulator, but modulator/modulator, more like a variant of ring mod.
What you say is true of the XMOD1 mode. XMOD2 is the classic linear FM and is an unexpected and very useful new one. Gattobus (a Roland Programmer) in a forum said he had verified spectrum in his hand that it is linear FM (dx7). The only thing to do is to set Gain = +12 dB to the oscillators that act as modulators (2 and 4)

https://www.facebook.com/gattobus/vi...2829419956319/
Old 4 days ago
  #3066
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ZT Scheer's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benis67 View Post
What you say is true of the XMOD1 mode. XMOD2 is the classic linear FM and is an unexpected and very useful new one. Gattobus (a Roland Programmer) in a forum said he had verified spectrum in his hand that it is linear FM (dx7). The only thing to do is to set Gain = +12 dB to the oscillators that act as modulators (2 and 4)

https://www.facebook.com/gattobus/vi...2829419956319/
This is excellent news indeed. I had completely missed this. While a single tone can only act as a 4-operator synth with 2 OSC/MOD pairs ... that's still very powerful. Layering two tones amounts to having a "Virtual GS-1". Much goodness can come from this.
Old 4 days ago
  #3067
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realtrance's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benis67 View Post
What you say is true of the XMOD1 mode. XMOD2 is the classic linear FM and is an unexpected and very useful new one. Gattobus (a Roland Programmer) in a forum said he had verified spectrum in his hand that it is linear FM (dx7). The only thing to do is to set Gain = +12 dB to the oscillators that act as modulators (2 and 4)

https://www.facebook.com/gattobus/vi...2829419956319/
Well that is useful to know; thank you!
Old 4 days ago
  #3068
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benis67 View Post
What you say is true of the XMOD1 mode. XMOD2 is the classic linear FM and is an unexpected and very useful new one. Gattobus (a Roland Programmer) in a forum said he had verified spectrum in his hand that it is linear FM (dx7). The only thing to do is to set Gain = +12 dB to the oscillators that act as modulators (2 and 4)

https://www.facebook.com/gattobus/vi...2829419956319/
Wow - cool! Since I have a Montage, I never gave the Fantom a second thought in terms of FM – I've just been focused on its amazing VA capabilities. Great to know that there is even more under the hood.
Old 4 days ago
  #3069
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gentleclockdivid's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benis67 View Post
XMOD2 in Fantom is the classic FM/DX7 FM engine with 1 Carrier and 1 modulator. With layers you can play in Fantom more Complex fm algorithm and classic FM sounds
A XMOD2 tone is a simple 4 operator FM algorithm and it is also possible to modulate the FM index using envelopes and Lfos through the Mod.

Yamaha style Fm uses phase modulation , which is nowhere to be found in the zencore engine
Old 3 days ago
  #3070
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gentleclockdivid View Post
Yamaha style Fm uses phase modulation , which is nowhere to be found in the zencore engine
XMOD2 is the classic DX7, TX802, Montage, ...phase modulation
Old 3 days ago
  #3071
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gentleclockdivid's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benis67 View Post
XMOD2 is the classic DX7, TX802, Montage, ...phase modulation
Source ?
Old 3 days ago
  #3072
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gentleclockdivid's Avatar
 

It's the internet's echochamber in full efffect
Old 3 days ago
  #3073
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ZT Scheer's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by gentleclockdivid View Post
It's the internet's echochamber in full efffect

^^ THIS ^^^


I LOL'd.
Old 3 days ago
  #3074
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lost_the_peace's Avatar
 

Do I have this right?

* Through zero linear FM - will stay in tune as modulation increases (assuming no offset)
* Linear FM - will detune as modulation increases
* Phase modulation - as per TZFM (not sure offset matters)

Does zencore xmod2 act as per TZFM, PM or LFM? (I thought LFM..)

edit: tested on the Xm and xmod2 doesn't detune, xmod1 detunes as I'd expect.. interesting..
Old 3 days ago
  #3075
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lost_the_peace's Avatar
 

Here's an interesting post regarding PM, FM, pitch drift and the preenFM FM implementation.

If we really want to test whether it's PM or FM, there's a comparison noted.

Quote:
Specifically, phase modulation (a) doesn't need to be scaled with carrier frequency, which would either incur a division or end up being imprecise, leading to lumpy tones across the keyboard; and (b) doesn't cause pitch drift if the phase modulator happens to include a DC component.

And for a modulator modulating a carrier, both being sine waves, they are exactly equivalent. Phase is the integral of frequency over time, and the integral of a sine wave is a phase-shifted sine wave. More complex waveforms, though, will produce different results; for example, frequency modulation with a square wave modulator is the same as phase modulation with a triangle wave modulator. And that's where the DX7 will depart from "real" FM; in a stack of operators, what hits each carrier going down departs progressively further from "real" FM.

But not in a bad way.

Anyway, here's the maths: DX-style FM, with a 2-op stack can be represented by the function

y = Acos(aø + Bcos(bø))

where A is the amplitude, B is the modulation index, a and b are the frequency ratios, and ø is the current angular phase. But this can also be expressed as frequency modulation. Remembering that phase is the integral of frequency and that the integral of cos(tx) is sin(tx)/t, we get:

y = Acos(a(1 + Bsin(bø)/ab)ø)

The tricky bit here is the `/ab` bit; it imposes an extra division (or reciprocal multiplication) on the modulating operator's volume. Some synths that offer FM as well as PM (the EVS1, for example) just don't bother with that scaling bit; instead they just do

y = Acos(a(1 + Bcos(bø))ø)

and let the modulation grow weaker up the keyboard; it also means they can produce a much broader range of modulation in the bass and mid areas with the same range of modulator index. FM on the EVS1 sounds *much* stronger than PM, and thus allows for a far broader range of timbres; on the DX7, the same thing was accomplished by allowing modulation indices (B) of up to 13 or so (and they doubled that for the DX21 onwards).

But other synths, like the PreenFM, *do* attempt that scaling, "taming" FM somewhat. However, the limited resolution of the PreenFM means that the division loses precision, so what you end up with is an approximation of `B/ab` rather than the exact figure. And because it accumulates that approximation, it also accumulates the errors - which can lead to pitch drift, expressed as a natural LFO-type effect on the carrier frequency. Or, deeper in a stack, in a modulator frequency... at which point it will accumulate. The PreenFM2 uses floating point maths, which decreases the tendency for errors to accumulate - but the processor only supports single precision, so it won't be completely eliminated (although it may take *much* more effort to tease it out - and of course any PreenFM patch which relied on it won't sound the same on a PreenFM2).

And if the modulator waveform ends up including a DC component? Well, here's where it's worth considering how you'd implement the two in code. For PM:

b_phi += b_RATIO * f_PITCH;
mod = B * (DC + cos( b_phi ) );
a_phi += a_RATIO * f_PITCH;
out = A * cos( a_phi + mod );

As you can see, only the phases of the oscillators end up being accumulated; the modulation is added to the carrier phase after the fact. So if we were to add a DC offset - a constant - to the modulator, it'd only cause a phase shift in the carrier. But in FM:

b_phi += b_RATIO * f_PITCH;
mod = B * ( DC + sin( b_phi ) ) * 1./ (a_RATIO * b_RATIO);
a_phi += a_RATIO * f_PITCH + mod;
out = A * cos( a_phi );

the DC offset will end up being repeatedly added to the phase of the carrier. Which will cause a steady drift upwards (or downwards) in pitch. The implementation is actually very similar, and TensionVex is pretty much correct in his assertion below that the DX7 is an FM synth in all but implementation detail - but FM is an *incredibly* sensitive synthesis technology, where even a slight difference in the relative phases of carrier and modulator can produce a huge timbral variation - one of the reasons that the DX7 sounds livelier than almost any other DX synth is that it can allow operators to free-run, effectively randomising their relative phases. The timbral variation between PM and FM, once you get past the most trivial examples, is - well, as broad as the difference between modulating with a triangle wave or a square wave.

But PM is *much* easier to control, even in modern times where the problems FM has with computational precision can be minimised with enough hardware, and it's hard to claim that Yamaha chose the wrong implementation, or that the PreenFM is a better way of doing things. Especially given the other trick that the DX7 has up its sleeve, feedback:

b_phi += b_RATIO * f_PITCH;
mod = B * (DC + cos( b_phi ) + mod * b_FB);
a_phi += a_RATIO * f_PITCH;
out = A * cos( a_phi + mod );

Implementing the same thing in "real" FM is, um, left as an exercise for the reader. PreenFM doesn't even try.
Old 2 days ago
  #3076
Here for the gear
Fantom 7 Firmware Update

I'm not sure if anyone else answered or commented on this (It was posted many months ago I realize), but I just got to Updating my firmware from 1.11, and came upon the same thing.

I realized that it has nothing to do with the the size of the stick. It has everything to do with the type of USB stick. I had the same problem, and no matter what I did I always got the same error "USB Memory Not Ready"

It occurred to me that USB 3.0 sticks are now pervasive, and almost every stick I owned was USB 3... after finding a lonely little USB 2 stick (2G) in the bottom of one of my studio drawers, I threw that in the Fantom and she was a happy lil' camper and is now humming along in v1.60. By the way, the Manual also does say that it takes a USB 2 memory stick, so it was clearly my own fault. Anyway, I know I'm way too late in answering your question, but perhaps this can save someone else the terrifying thought that they have to send their Fantom back.

Cheers,
~G

Quote:
Originally Posted by sy3360 View Post
Hi, a new owner here: May I ask other owners a question? Has any of you updated the Fantom's operating system to 1.10, and then tried to backup or format the USB memory stick?

I ask, because as soon as I updated my Fantom to 1.10, it does not recognize the same USB stick that I used to update the Fantom with an error message, "USB Memory Not Ready". (Yes, the USB stick is inserted into the correct MEMORY slot, and I had made a few backups before without any problem.) Now, the Fantom does not let me backup or format this same USB stick.

Following the suggestion by Roland France (I'm in Paris), I formatted the USB stick by a different device, and then tried to re-reformat it again on the Fantom, but it simply says, "USB Memory Not Ready" again. Just in case, I've used two other different USB sticks, but the result were always the same: "USB Memory Not Ready."

Please let me know if anybody has the same problem with the operating system 1.10: If I'm the only one experiencing this problem, I think my unit is broken, especially since it arrived in a damaged box with shuttered supporting forms inside the box. In this case, I might try to return the Fantom to exchange with a new one since I just purchased it within 2 weeks ago.

Edit: I've just found the solution to this my problem, which is to perform "FACTORY RESET". I didn't want to do this, because Roland France didn't suggest it, and I had many unsaved Scenes and Tones. But as soon as I did it on a whim, I could then reformat the USB stick and make backups again. (I think I will leave this post here, because it might help somebody.)

Edit: The problem returned, so I corresponded with Roland, and they think that my Fantom is broken: So I'm returning it to the store this week.
Old 2 days ago
  #3077
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guitardron View Post
I'm not sure if anyone else answered or commented on this (It was posted many months ago I realize), but I just got to Updating my firmware from 1.11, and came upon the same thing.

I realized that it has nothing to do with the the size of the stick. It has everything to do with the type of USB stick. I had the same problem, and no matter what I did I always got the same error "USB Memory Not Ready"

It occurred to me that USB 3.0 sticks are now pervasive, and almost every stick I owned was USB 3... after finding a lonely little USB 2 stick (2G) in the bottom of one of my studio drawers, I threw that in the Fantom and she was a happy lil' camper and is now humming along in v1.60. By the way, the Manual also does say that it takes a USB 2 memory stick, so it was clearly my own fault. Anyway, I know I'm way too late in answering your question, but perhaps this can save someone else the terrifying thought that they have to send their Fantom back.

Cheers,
~G
I used 3.0 sticks for all my firmware updates without issue on my Fantom 7. Since 3.0 sticks are newer, they're also almost always bigger in capacity and usually that means anything over 16GB is going to be formatted in exFAT or NTFS, which the Fantom can't read. Format a 3.0 stick to FAT32 and it should work fine. My 64GB 3.0 stick formatted to FAT32 works fine.
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