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New Roland Jupiter X / XM
Old 14th August 2020
  #5041
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flat's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jiffybox View Post
I’m with @ flat on this one, I’ve just been so lost in what’s already available in the Xm. I’ve certainly played with sound design and building things from scratch, but then I get distracted by some shiny new thing in the synth that I lose a little focus, but that’s kind of the fun of it. Sometimes I wish it was a bit more knob per, but it’s its own thing. There is MUCH under the hood and I’ve only begun to scratch the surface, but I’m enjoying scratching the surface if that makes sense. I’m guessing the Zenology Pro will open it up further, too.

There’s a great iPad app I use to connect to the Xm via Bluetooth that does an incredible job of laying out the architecture of the Xm and works rather well as a visual 1:1 controller. .

Quote:
Originally Posted by CODEC View Post
Hoping that the Zenology pro will let us edit and save all the parameters of the models and the zencore engine and seamlessly interchange the patch data between the x and xm mc? rd?

Looking forward to new models and a good editor for guicker deep dives of the engines.
Shame the Zencore Pro is going to cost 9.99 a month/99 a year [or can you purchase as a one off?]. The iPad editor sounds good though. I'm guessing there won't be a Android version. Might nab an older iPad just to run this. My only complaint [as mentioned before] is the small LCD screen on the JPX, so an I pad editor would be great.

Sorry if I'm late to the party on this Zencore stuff, but is their some sort of connection to AMD's Zencore CPU processors? or it it just a coincidence they used the same name?
Old 14th August 2020
  #5042
Lives for gear
OK, so of the 3 that answered my question so far it seems clear that you haven't dived into programming and are still scratching the surface. On that one hand that means it's loaded with great sounds to start with but on the other hand perhaps a bit daunting to get into.

I am just wondering for studio use where the advantage is of having the hardware vs. just using Zenology and Cloud plug-ins if in the end you find yourself needing either an iPad or Zenology to program and get the most out of the hardware. For playing live of course it's clear, but I was hoping the X series would give you the feeling of wanting to tweak like the original Jupiters and Junos did in addition to just having the sound.

I'm so on the fence about this one - just worried I'd spend a few thousand euros on what ends up being a nice master keyboard controller.

Last edited by Arcadia; 14th August 2020 at 10:59 AM..
Old 14th August 2020
  #5043
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcadia View Post
OK, so of the 3 that answered my question so far it seems clear that you haven't dived into programming and are still scratching the surface. On that one hand that means it's loaded with great sounds to start with but on the other hand perhaps a bit daunting to get into.
only if you discount my reply...

Quote:
am just wondering for studio use where the advantage is of having the hardware vs. just using Zenology and Cloud plug-ins if in the end you find yourself needing either an iPad or Zenology to program and get the most out of the hardware. For playing live of course it's clear, but I was hoping the X series would give you the feeling of wanting to tweak like the original Jupiters and Junos did in addition to just having the sound.
When combined with the third party Midi Designer Pro 2 ipad editors (or some other sysex sending device), you get access to parameters that roland don't give in the menus and are unlikely to give in zenology eg being able to setup a mod matrix in the analog models or access to zencore parameters that roland use for their models but aren't in the zencore menus on the x/xm itself.

If you're into synthesis this all has real value.

Quote:
just worried I'd spent a few thousand euros on what ends up being a nice master keyboard controller.
bear in mind the knobs send out sysex, which changes based on current menu/mode, not ccs - not ideal for master keyboard duty.
Old 14th August 2020
  #5044
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flat's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcadia View Post
OK, so of the 3 that answered my question so far it seems clear that you haven't dived into programming and are still scratching the surface. On that one hand that means it's loaded with great sounds to start with but on the other hand perhaps a bit daunting to get into.

I am just wondering for studio use where the advantage is of having the hardware vs. just using Zenology and Cloud plug-ins if in the end you find yourself needing either an iPad or Zenology to program and get the most out of the hardware. For playing live of course it's clear, but I was hoping the X series would give you the feeling of wanting to tweak like the original Jupiters and Junos did in addition to just having the sound.

I'm so on the fence about this one - just worried I'd spent a few thousand euros on what ends up being a nice master keyboard controller.
There's deffo a placebo thing going on with the JPX. The unit just has that classic Roland aura all around it and totally brings back the 80s Juno/Jupiter vibe in a way that the System 8 just doesn't. Its a combined unit and feels great. The Cloud, although sonically the same is a distant software program connected via a midi keyboard of choice.

Theres a very noticeable difference having an extremely well built and beautiful looking Roland synth in front of you with very playable keys to the later. It helps bind the whole Roland 80's experience perfectly imho.

Call it placibo, but I mean that in a very positive way.
Old 14th August 2020
  #5045
Deleted 68bd609
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcadia View Post
OK, so of the 3 that answered my question so far it seems clear that you haven't dived into programming and are still scratching the surface. On that one hand that means it's loaded with great sounds to start with but on the other hand perhaps a bit daunting to get into.

I am just wondering for studio use where the advantage is of having the hardware vs. just using Zenology and Cloud plug-ins if in the end you find yourself needing either an iPad or Zenology to program and get the most out of the hardware. For playing live of course it's clear, but I was hoping the X series would give you the feeling of wanting to tweak like the original Jupiters and Junos did in addition to just having the sound.

I'm so on the fence about this one - just worried I'd spend a few thousand euros on what ends up being a nice master keyboard controller.
If your only interest is the emulations of classic analog synths, then everything is right there and easy as can be to edit on the JX front panel. The JX engine is somewhat trickier and requires being on one of the four partial pages, but once there will allow most of the useful parameters to be edited from the front panel per partial. Some of the more advanced features will require some menu diving. The XV-5080 will require a bit of menu diving, but is made redundant by the JX engine as the PCM samples can be accessed by any of its four partials. The most confusing omission is that the step curves for the advanced JX engine LFOs don't have visual representations. There should be a dedicated LFO page that shows all 36 possible curves visually per step. So overall the JX engine is a bit of an afterthought, but it's not so counterintuitive to be insurmountable by any means.

The most baffling aspect that I've come across thus far is that there are only 256 user presets. Considering there are 256 scenes containing four possible models, there should at very least be 1024 user presets available. Edits made to a preset in a different scene will require its own user save slot.
Old 14th August 2020
  #5046
Deleted 93c3244
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by NopeNope View Post
The most baffling aspect that I've come across thus far is that there are only 256 user presets. Considering there are 256 scenes containing four possible models, there should at very least 1024 user presets available. Any edit made to a preset in a different scene will require its own user save slot.
Really? That's disappointing. I would have hoped they would have learned after limiting the System 8 to only 64 patches per plugout.

Why is patch memory suddenly so hard to implement over at Roland?
Old 14th August 2020
  #5047
Gear Maniac
 
CODEC's Avatar
 

Shame the Zencore Pro is going to cost 9.99 a month/99 a year [or can you purchase as a one off?]. The iPad editor sounds good though. I'm guessing there won't be a Android version. Might nab an older iPad just to run this. My only complaint [as mentioned before] is the small LCD screen on the JPX, so an I pad editor would be great.

Sorry if I'm late to the party on this Zencore stuff, but is their some sort of connection to AMD's Zencore CPU processors? or it it just a coincidence they used the same name?

I am hoping that we would be able to buy it as a one off.
And that Hiser editor looks great going to look into that one soon. As for the AMD that's a really good question it's definitely worth looking in to! I haven't opened it up yet to see what's inside. I don't know if the code base is running on proprietary chips /Yamaha/NEC/Toshiba or something else.
Old 14th August 2020
  #5048
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted 68bd609 View Post
If your only interest is the emulations of classic analog synths, then everything is right there and easy as can be to edit on the JX front panel.
not everything - there are some commonly used parameters that only live in the menus even for the analog models eg jup 8 PWM depth, PWM source in all models and sh-101 sub-octave mode. (and no HPF knob on xm)

Quote:
The JX engine is somewhat trickier and requires being on one of the four partial pages, but once on there allows most of the parameters to be edited from the front panel per partial.
I'd change that to "most of the common parameters", as the front panel is the tiniest tip of the biggest iceberg in terms of the parameters that can be set for each partial.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CODEC View Post
I haven't opened it up yet to see what's inside. I don't know if the code base is running on proprietary chips /Yamaha/NEC/Toshiba or something else.
https://www.roland.com/uk/promos/jupiter-x_story/

Quote:
We invested a huge amount of time and money to develop a new system-on-a-chip called BMC, which stands for Behavior Modeling Core. Proprietary to Roland, BMC contains a large array of DSP and CPU core blocks plus hardware logic; it is incredibly powerful.
Old 14th August 2020
  #5049
Deleted 68bd609
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_xyz View Post
not everything - there are some commonly used parameters that only live in the menus even for the analog models eg jup 8 PWM depth, PWM source in all models and sh-101 sub-octave mode.
"Pretty much" everything would have been more apt as there are a few things like OSC 2 mode & LFO destination for the Jupiter 8 as well. Regardless, the answer to the question:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcadia View Post
are you finding yourself actually programming your own sounds just as often and as easily as you would on a 1-knob-per-function synth like the OGs?
is in my case a resounding yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_xyz View Post
(and no HPF knob on xm)
I wasn't talking about the Xm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_xyz View Post
I'd change that to "most of the common parameters"
I added "useful" in before you even replied.
Old 14th August 2020
  #5050
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by flat View Post
[...]

Sorry if I'm late to the party on this Zencore stuff, but is their some sort of connection to AMD's Zencore CPU processors? or it it just a coincidence they used the same name?
Pretty sure it's a coincidence, Roland is using "Zen" as a general theme: Zenbeat, Zenology, Zen-Core.
Old 14th August 2020
  #5051
Gear Maniac
 
CODEC's Avatar
 

I'm so on the fence about this one - just worried I'd spend a few thousand euros on what ends up being a nice master keyboard controller.


Well I can only give my personal and subjective opinion on the matter. First off I am both downsizing and streamlining so for me it's a blessing to have smaller and portable instruments tha you could easily move around. Imagine A solar panel a xm speakers and a recording tablet in the middle of a majestic forest or whatever inspires you that is priceless to me.

I have gone full circle now and I have come to a realization that I really only need a couple of flexible tools rather than sitting in rooms packed to the brim with instruments been there for 30+ years, it was both educational and great fun but the more you accumulate the harder it actual gets to be creative, you usually get stuck with solving technical problems in trying to get technology from different era s to flow freely together
On the one hand and the constant maintenance on the other.

Second off I really like to compose music with the time I have got more than enything else and I have both learnt and found out what makes me tick ie what tools I love the sound of and which instruments that are indispensable for me to be able to create what I like.

So I have always loved the roland sound particularly the sh 101 jupiter 4 I also owned the super jx 10 jx 8p and the Jx3p and the erlier monos sh09 the sh 7 and the sh 5. I simply love the Roland sound. So for me to be able to estimate those sounds to a very believable degree in a a box that's bot small portable and playable and has very good fx is just a dream come true to me.

And third off I went the software route whe it became a thing and I have nothing against that, I will work with any tools I am given to accomplish the objective
There is just this one big downside that has always put me off with the whole studio in a box concept "longivety." and for that reason I like hardware I still have some hardware some of them are 40+ years old they still operate and I can create music on them. And another biggie fir me when I create is the actual feeling of interacting with an actual physical instrument which is a integral part of the music making process again for me.

So if you like to play a physical instrument like the roland legacy sound and great fx don't like planned redundancy go with the hardware. You will still be kicking out tunes 20 years from now on it long after your software of choice has left to the virtual trash bin
Old 14th August 2020
  #5052
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcadia View Post
OK, so of the 3 that answered my question so far it seems clear that you haven't dived into programming and are still scratching the surface. On that one hand that means it's loaded with great sounds to start with but on the other hand perhaps a bit daunting to get into.

I am just wondering for studio use where the advantage is of having the hardware vs. just using Zenology and Cloud plug-ins if in the end you find yourself needing either an iPad or Zenology to program and get the most out of the hardware.
I have the XM. I would answer your question in a different way:

"you haven't dived into programming".
Yes, programming from the scratch was not needed in the last 8 month I owned it.

Let me explain: Mostly I search for a sound for a specific task (e.g. a Synth Bass). But by browsing the excellent sounds I find one close to my idea. Or even something better.

The reason is simple:

Preset tone: 4,000 or greater
User tone: 256
Drum Kit: 90 or greater

Mostly I just need to tweak the sound and FX with the HW-Controls (Cut Off, Release, Volume etc., Reverb) to make it fit into my track.
Done.

The Onboard sounds are simply all great. It covers all traditional Roland sounds.

It even contains Piano and Roland-Drums.

Or you can put it this way:

Roland made a terrible mistake!

The Jupiter X(M) covers so many great sounds:
Roland will have serious problem selling me something similar again, because the Jupiter X(M) is already so good and flexible

Or maybe I have lack of imagination. But Roland already created all the iconic sounds of the past into the Jupiter X(M).
It is hard/impossible for me, to surpass the Roland Soundengineers.

(Or Roland does something inovative with different sounds. Of course I would be still interessted in this ....)
Old 14th August 2020
  #5053
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by AstralBody View Post
Drum Kit: 90 or greater
It's rather 30.
Most are redudant, with extra compressor or width enhancement MFX.
And they can't be edited or extended like we could on the JV-1080 and the like.
Old 14th August 2020
  #5054
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by AstralBody View Post
I have the XM. I would answer your question in a different way:

"you haven't dived into programming".
Yes, programming from the scratch was not needed in the last 8 month I owned it.

Let me explain: Mostly I search for a sound for a specific task (e.g. a Synth Bass). But by browsing the excellent sounds I find one close to my idea. Or even something better.

The reason is simple:

Preset tone: 4,000 or greater
User tone: 256
Drum Kit: 90 or greater

Mostly I just need to tweak the sound and FX with the HW-Controls (Cut Off, Release, Volume etc., Reverb) to make it fit into my track.
Done.

The Onboard sounds are simply all great. It covers all traditional Roland sounds.

It even contains Piano and Roland-Drums.

Or you can put it this way:

Roland made a terrible mistake!

The Jupiter X(M) covers so many great sounds:
Roland will have serious problem selling me something similar again, because the Jupiter X(M) is already so good and flexible

Or maybe I have lack of imagination. But Roland already created all the iconic sounds of the past into the Jupiter X(M).
It is hard/impossible for me, to surpass the Roland Soundengineers.

(Or Roland does something inovative with different sounds. Of course I would be still interessted in this ....)
Given what you say I’m curious why you feel you need the Xm at all since versus just using the plug-ins? It’s not the keys because they aren’t made for serious playing being mini and 3-octave and at the same time you say you just surf presets and tweak a bit. The same can be done with the software. Not trolling here but genuinely interested to understand what the appeal is for you.
Old 14th August 2020
  #5055
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poumtschak View Post
It's rather 30.
Most are redudant, with extra compressor or width enhancement MFX.
And they can't be edited or extended like we could on the JV-1080 and the like.
>And they can't be edited or extended like we could on the JV-1080 and the like
You are right. Would have been nice.

However Paul_xyz found a workaround if someone MUST tweak his drums:
New Roland Jupiter X / XM

>Most are redudant, with extra compressor or width enhancement MFX.
You are right: Sometimes one drumkit comes in 3 Versions.
RAW. Compress. Comp & FX. This is counted as 3 drum kits by Roland. This is a bit cheating
It is convient for the enduser. But of course the marketing department is exaggerating things.

(I just copied it from Rolands Specification: https://www.roland.com/de/products/j...pecifications/)
Old 14th August 2020
  #5056
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcadia View Post
Given what you say I’m curious why you feel you need the Xm at all since versus just using the plug-ins? It’s not the keys because they aren’t made for serious playing being mini and 3-octave and at the same time you say you just surf presets and tweak a bit. The same can be done with the software. Not trolling here but genuinely interested to understand what the appeal is for you.
Simple: I just played the XM on batteries for 1 hour in my kitchen.

And I do not like computers in my free time: always updates and something is broken. It is most annoying. (Actually I am a computer professional since 25 years . I manage commercial software developemt projects and was a programmer in the beginning of my carrer. So no computers for me in my free time, Sir )

If I need more keys: I consider the XM as a "sound module" for my 61 key MIDI-keyboard.

>The same can be done with the software.
You are right. I can understand your perspective.

If you want the choose most efficient and cost effective way to create music:
Use a computer and do everthing in the box. Just a Laptop a DAW and some plugins and samples and you are done. Could not be easyer or cheaper.

Or do it like me: use an iPad -> Fabfilter-Plugins for 20 bugs. You can not beat this on a PC.

>Not trolling here but genuinely interested to understand what the appeal is for you
I do not mind. Your point is reasonable. I just make music for my own fun.
And I enjoy something with knobs and wheels more than a Plugin.

But I use computers as well. Mainly my iPad Pro. It is great to.

I am a big fan of Korgs Gadget on iPad. I even have Korgs MIDIs bluettooth controller.
As you may have expected: I use the iPad on batteries. For example in vaccation.
(I can pretend I am bringing the I pad for browsing the web. But in reallity it is full with music apps... A good way to hide my music addiction. Look at https://forum.audiob.us/ :-))

And I even combine iPad and Jupiter XM in my "studio" :-)
I actually sequenced my Jupiter XM using Korg Gadet. And I used the XM Keyboard to play my Gadget VSTs. Works like a charm.

The sequencer in Korg Gadget is a fresh, minimalistic approach.
If you want the best bang for the bugs: Try Korg gadget on the iPad an sale for 25 bugs. DAW + VST + FX.

But at the end I must confess: I am a gearslut
I like toys to make noise.
Old 17th August 2020
  #5057
I have no interest in the Roland Cloud at this point. I'm having way too much fun with this keyboard and the sounds it provides and still learning it
Old 17th August 2020
  #5058
Gear Maniac
 
alfiedotwtf's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Bucci View Post
I have no interest in the Roland Cloud at this point. I'm having way too much fun with this keyboard and the sounds it provides and still learning it
This.

I've heard that the SH-101 can do acid, and I thought that with the build-in delay, reverb, and overdrive it might sound ok, so started noodling... mind-fraken-blown... my 303 clone along with my Big Sky might end up on eBay tonight
Old 17th August 2020
  #5059
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by alfiedotwtf View Post
my Big Sky might end up on eBay tonight
The reverb on the JP-X/m hardly goes to Strymon or Eventide territories IMHO.
Old 17th August 2020
  #5060
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flat's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poumtschak View Post
The reverb on the JP-X/m hardly goes to Strymon or Eventide territories IMHO.
Not sure if its a coincidence, but I own Evintide reverbs and strangely I never use them on my Roland synths. The f/x on the JPX an JDXA kind of suite the sound in a way the Evintides don't. My Nords however go beautifully with the Evintides.

Only occurred to me after reading your comment.
Old 17th August 2020
  #5061
Gear Maniac
 
alfiedotwtf's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by flat View Post
Not sure if its a coincidence, but I own Evintide reverbs and strangely I never use them on my Roland synths. The f/x on the JPX an JDXA kind of suite the sound in a way the Evintides don't. My Nords however go beautifully with the Evintides.

Only occurred to me after reading your comment.
It was supposed to be a quick test, but instead turned into me two hours hunched over to reach my Xm making it squelch. Sure it may not be in Strymon or Eventide territory, but damn it's more than good enough for that dugga dugga chirp dugga dugga sound.
Old 17th August 2020
  #5062
Gear Addict
 
S h a w's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by alfiedotwtf View Post
It was supposed to be a quick test, but instead turned into me two hours hunched over to reach my Xm making it squelch. Sure it may not be in Strymon or Eventide territory, but damn it's more than good enough for that dugga dugga chirp dugga dugga sound.
“dugga dugga chirp dugga dugga”

Please make this your signature....
Old 17th August 2020
  #5063
Gear Nut
 

Speaking of the reverbs on this device - they all seem very subtle, even when send and reverb levels are maxed out.

Is there a setting that really drenches the sound in huge smothering ambient reverb?
Old 17th August 2020
  #5064
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by flat View Post
Not sure if its a coincidence, but I own Evintide reverbs and strangely I never use them on my Roland synths.
You must be confused by an Evinrude buzzing sound.

Quote:
Originally Posted by uly81 View Post
Is there a setting that really drenches the sound in huge smothering ambient reverb?
Not quite.
This can be somewhat simulated by increasing ENV sustain and release time at the cost of polyphony. And delay feedback.

Or using external gear at the cost of flexibility given the fact the unit does not have separate audio outputs. On the budget size, the Korg NTS-1 has great third party reverbs (hammondeggsmusic comes to mind).

Last edited by Poumtschak; 17th August 2020 at 10:08 PM..
Old 17th August 2020
  #5065
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flat's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poumtschak View Post
You must be confused by an Evinrude buzzing sound.
When it comes to Wavetable synthesis, i'm a Mercury man old chap

Old 18th August 2020
  #5066
Deleted 68bd609
Guest
For those who own the X, what's the aftertouch like on your unit compared to your other synths? Mine takes by far the most pressure to activate even when all the settings (system/tone edit) are maxed out. More than the hammer action SL88 Grand that I used to own...
Old 18th August 2020
  #5067
Gear Maniac
 

Hello
Anyone got an idiot proof guide to programming the 'sequencer' on the Xm?

Also, whats the simplest way of stopping it carrying FX tweaks over from one tone to another? Its infuriating to apply a reverb on a Juno tone, change it to a SH and its still there


thanks
Old 18th August 2020
  #5068
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by gypsymoth View Post
Anyone got an idiot proof guide to programming the 'sequencer' on the Xm?
These by Robert Saint John are good:

https://youtu.be/69piv_TBRa8

https://youtu.be/BIqwMIAdhTc

Quote:
Also, whats the simplest way of stopping it carrying FX tweaks over from one tone to another? Its infuriating to apply a reverb on a Juno tone, change it to a SH and its still there
that's just part of how it works as the effects sends are part of the scene/part and not part of the tone - when you drop a new tone into a part slot it is going to be using the same settings.

It's like plugging a different synth into a mixer channel that is set up with sends in the real world.

you can turn the individual send effects off completely system-wide by going to menu>system> right button setting source=sys and switch=off

(another issue that comes up a lot is that the part output can be sent out via the drive effect or direct - if it's via the drive effect then the effects knobs affects the sends from the drive not from the part - that output routing is in the "scene part edit" menu).
Old 18th August 2020
  #5069
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_xyz View Post
These by Robert Saint John are good:

https://youtu.be/69piv_TBRa8

https://youtu.be/BIqwMIAdhTc



that's just part of how it works as the effects sends are part of the scene/part and not part of the tone - when you drop a new tone into a part slot it is going to be using the same settings.

It's like plugging a different synth into a mixer channel that is set up with sends in the real world.

you can turn the send effects off completely system-wide by going to menu>system> right button setting srouce=sys and switch=off
thanks man
Old 18th August 2020
  #5070
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AstralBody View Post

Roland made a terrible mistake!

The Jupiter X(M) covers so many great sounds:
Roland will have serious problem selling me something similar again, because the Jupiter X(M) is already so good and flexible
I agree and think they have outdone themselves with the zencore tech, I think it even sounds as good as the full emulations in certain instances, the sound quality seems to be better anyway.

What with Behringer cloning the Roland analog back catalogue and Roland Cloud I can't imagine how much mileage Roland has left other than knocking out more cloud models. Once they have done that and Behringer have achieved their goals I can't imagine there being much more desire for new Roland synths as zencore can emulate it all.

Also if you already own a Jupiter X or Fantom then I can't see anyone wanting to upgrade those for many years as what else would you need it to do?
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