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New Roland Jupiter X / XM
Old 28th June 2020
  #4771
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alfiedotwtf View Post
I got the Xm about a month ago but was totally overwhelmed at first (and that's coming from a Virus TI 2). But after reading all the manuals and noodling here and there, the whole structure of scene/part/partial actually makes perfect sense now.

This is now my island synth.
So you’re saying it does a mean steel drum?
Old 28th June 2020
  #4772
Here for the gear
 

The Jupiter Xm is here and it is a gorgeous instrument. The VA engine is a big step further than the SuperNatural synth (Fa 06 owner) and the ABM models sound the same to me as the ACB counterparts. The performance settings between the Synth layers, the drum machine high quality samples and the i arp makes it an instant Synthwave machine. It is my favorite polysynth in my setup. The analog sounds are as vintage as my Korg DSS1 but with a more modern character (fx) and of course the Roland flavor. Totally recommend this synth.
Old 29th June 2020
  #4773
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duplobaustein's Avatar
The only annoying thing is the menu diving I have to say. Also it jumps between Scene Offset Parameters and Tone Parameters when using the controllers, depending on what page you are in the menu and what model you have loaded outside the menu. It's quite confusing and you really have to be careful where you dial right now.

Sound, build quality and features are absolutely great, I love it!
Old 30th June 2020
  #4774
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by teucimex View Post
The Jupiter Xm is here and it is a gorgeous instrument. The VA engine is a big step further than the SuperNatural synth (Fa 06 owner) and the ABM models sound the same to me as the ACB counterparts. The performance settings between the Synth layers, the drum machine high quality samples and the i arp makes it an instant Synthwave machine. It is my favorite polysynth in my setup. The analog sounds are as vintage as my Korg DSS1 but with a more modern character (fx) and of course the Roland flavor. Totally recommend this synth.
They sound a mile apart, I doubt you've played ACB in person. The good thing with ABM machines though is the tons of presets you get.
Old 30th June 2020
  #4775
Here for the gear
 
GravityWell's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Dairy View Post
They sound a mile apart, I doubt you've played ACB in person. The good thing with ABM machines though is the tons of presets you get.
Are you saying that the sound of ACB vs. ABM is a feel thing that cannot be heard unless you are there in person? A recorded version will be difficult to discern?
Old 30th June 2020
  #4776
Lives for gear
Jupiter X or Xm?

Well after waiting a while to see how people are liking the synth it’s clear to me that the sound is a winner. Whether it’s exactly the same as ACB is debatable, but then I have Roland Cloud for that stuff. I want a hardware synth that I can play and program - and now I’m debating the X or Xm. I’ve heard Xm owners say it’s just as easy to program because there are only a few less controls, but then again the X is using not just knobs but sliders which I quite like. I have a hard time to believe the experience could really be the same, and naturally the playing experience will be much better on the full-sized keyboard. On the other hand you could just trigger the Xm from another MIDI controller and save a lot of money. I can afford either one, but don’t necessarily want to spend nearly 2x the price if I’m not getting that much more in the end. Do Xm owners have X envy and do X owners feel they’ve gotten their 2495 worth or do you partly wish you’d taken the smaller, more portable version?
Old 30th June 2020
  #4777
Gear Maniac
 
alfiedotwtf's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcadia View Post
Do Xm owners have X envy
Totally!

Although I'm using an OB-6 to play the Xm, and I'm kind of getting fast at sound design so that the X layout wouldn't be worth my time, I'd still definitely trade up eventually (at least a few months away).

Think about the TI Snow vs TI 2... Exactly the same sounds engine (ok, multi-timbral numbers differ), but damn was it a hassle to push all those buttons. The closer you get to one-knob-per-function, the less you stress the small stuff and the quicker you get to the sound you're aiming for.

Yes I'm totally happy with my Xm, but I'd be even happier with its bigger sibling.

The only reason I can see for going for an Xm rather than an X if money wasn't a problem, would be to minimise desk space and luggability.
Old 30th June 2020
  #4778
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realtrance's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcadia View Post
Well after waiting a while to see how people are liking the synth it’s clear to me that the sound is a winner. Whether it’s exactly the same as ACB is debatable, but then I have Roland Cloud for that stuff. I want a hardware synth that I can play and program - and now I’m debating the X or Xm. I’ve heard Xm owners say it’s just as easy to program because there are only a few less controls, but then again the X is using not just knobs but sliders which I quite like. I have a hard time to believe the experience could really be the same, and naturally the playing experience will be much better on the full-sized keyboard. On the other hand you could just trigger the Xm from another MIDI controller and save a lot of money. I can afford either one, but don’t necessarily want to spend nearly 2x the price if I’m not getting that much more in the end. Do Xm owners have X envy and do X owners feel they’ve gotten their 2495 worth or do you partly wish you’d taken the smaller, more portable version?
The pluses of the X are the quality keyboard, the full size, the extra controls. Well worth the extra cost.

The pluses of the Xm are portability, smaller keyboard (a plus for some), centered LCD screen (X has it off to the side, a potential annoyance especially if your focus is sound design), less risk of damage in shipping.

The.problem at the X price point is that it then competes with many excellent new synths on the market: Nord Wave 2, Novation Summit, Sequential offerings.and others, each of which have their unique strengths. It's also now just a few hundred less than the Fantom, which some would consider far more fully featured (though without ABM).

It's a complex decision! take your time.
Old 30th June 2020
  #4779
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by realtrance View Post
The pluses of the X are the quality keyboard, the full size, the extra controls. Well worth the extra cost.

The pluses of the Xm are portability, smaller keyboard (a plus for some), centered LCD screen (X has it off to the side, a potential annoyance especially if your focus is sound design), less risk of damage in shipping.

The.problem at the X price point is that it then competes with many excellent new synths on the market: Nord Wave 2, Novation Summit, Sequential offerings.and others, each of which have their unique strengths. It's also now just a few hundred less than the Fantom, which some would consider far more fully featured (though without ABM).

It's a complex decision! take your time.
Well, I have no interest in other high-end synths as I’m after the Roland sound. I have the feeling if I got the Xm I’d be eternally haunted by the thought I should have gone for the X. But yeah, that tiny display on the left was a really poor design choice. Hopefully having all those knobs and sliders will mean I don’t need to stare at it much. Go big or go home
Old 30th June 2020
  #4780
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realtrance's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcadia View Post
Well, I have no interest in other high-end synths as I’m after the Roland sound. I have the feeling if I got the Xm I’d be eternally haunted by the thought I should have gone for the X. But yeah, that tiny display on the left was a really poor design choice. Hopefully having all those knobs and sliders will mean I don’t need to stare at it much. Go big or go home
Definitely; if you love that sound, and want a great keybed, the X is it! I suspect it will last a very long time, as well. And with practice you won’t need the screen much.
Old 30th June 2020
  #4781
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duplobaustein's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcadia View Post
Well after waiting a while to see how people are liking the synth it’s clear to me that the sound is a winner. Whether it’s exactly the same as ACB is debatable, but then I have Roland Cloud for that stuff. I want a hardware synth that I can play and program - and now I’m debating the X or Xm. I’ve heard Xm owners say it’s just as easy to program because there are only a few less controls, but then again the X is using not just knobs but sliders which I quite like. I have a hard time to believe the experience could really be the same, and naturally the playing experience will be much better on the full-sized keyboard. On the other hand you could just trigger the Xm from another MIDI controller and save a lot of money. I can afford either one, but don’t necessarily want to spend nearly 2x the price if I’m not getting that much more in the end. Do Xm owners have X envy and do X owners feel they’ve gotten their 2495 worth or do you partly wish you’d taken the smaller, more portable version?
Remember the Zen Core Engine ist a +-200 parameter per Partial, so +-800 parameter per Tone monster. Plus Common, Part, Zone and Arp settings. Even some basic things, like the ENVs ahve more than the usual ADSR stages and can't be fully edited via the UI. Programming is a deep sea menu dive there.

The vintage models are far better to program.
Old 30th June 2020
  #4782
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcadia View Post
Well, I have no interest in other high-end synths as I’m after the Roland sound. I have the feeling if I got the Xm I’d be eternally haunted by the thought I should have gone for the X. But yeah, that tiny display on the left was a really poor design choice. Hopefully having all those knobs and sliders will mean I don’t need to stare at it much. Go big or go home
If you have interest in anything other than the shallowest of sound design/tweaking, you're going to be spending a *lot* of time in that screen on the left.
Old 30th June 2020
  #4783
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ZT Scheer's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Dairy View Post
They sound a mile apart, I doubt you've played ACB in person. The good thing with ABM machines though is the tons of presets you get.
A mile apart ... seriously?

FWIW/IMHO: We can all express our "doubts" ... I've played the ABM models, the BCM/ACB models (on both hardware and as VSTs through quality interfaces), as well as the original instruments in all of their analog glory (for years and years).

I think you're splitting hairs at this point.

Wherever the Jupter X/Xm stands in any personal ranking, it just sounds damned good, and captures the essential sonic character of the original instruments.

That's just one person's qualified opinion, based upon decades of experience. We could all do with a bit of humility in these discussions, IMHO.

Last edited by ZT Scheer; 30th June 2020 at 08:29 PM.. Reason: Spelling, clarity
Old 30th June 2020
  #4784
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_xyz View Post
If you have interest in anything other than the shallowest of sound design/tweaking, you're going to be spending a *lot* of time in that screen on the left.
Well I’m really only interested in programming the vintage analog synths - not the other stuff - so hopefully that means much less reliance on the screen. I do have an iPad Pro I could use for editing as well.
Old 30th June 2020
  #4785
Lives for gear
yeah, the models use a heavily reduced selection of parameters (but even then some relatively common stuff is in the menus eg some pwm settings, and sub-osc octave setting for sh-101). if you have an ipad you owe it to yourself to get midi designer pro 2 and the James K Hiser layouts, they let you navigate the settings easier, and also allow you to get access to the underlying zencore settings even with the models.
Old 30th June 2020
  #4786
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realtrance's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_xyz View Post
If you have interest in anything other than the shallowest of sound design/tweaking, you're going to be spending a *lot* of time in that screen on the left.
Not disagreeing, but two points about that.

First, almost any synth sound you can imagine is already programmed in. There are thousands, and they are all great and serve a wide variety of purposes.

Secondly and more importantly, once you get used to the shift-and-move-a-knob/slider technique, and have a good sense of how they’re mapped in a patch, there’s not a lot of screen-gazing left to do.

The latter has always been true on Roland synths since they started offering menus and LCDs; so I’ve never really gotten the negative reactions to menus. Probably mostly an issue for those who use multiple synths superficially, or are sound-designing on the clock.

You’re not going to use 800 parameters all the time, it’s just good they’re there when you want them. Simple things like LFO delay, ability to pick among multiple attack phase envelope slopes, etc. are great. The layering and mixing of a patch or Scene is a sustained effort, so be ready for that.
Old 30th June 2020
  #4787
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZT Scheer View Post
A mile apart ... seriously?

FWIW/IMHO: We can all express our "doubts" ... I've played the ABM models, the BCM/ACB models (on both hardware and as VSTs through quality interfaces), as well as the original instruments in all of their analog glory (for years and years)

I think you're splitting hairs at this point.

Wherever the Jupter X/Xm stansd in any personal ranking, it just sounds damned good, and captures the essential sonic character of the original instruments.

That's just one person's qualified opinion, based upon decades of experience. We could all do with a bit of humility in these discussion, IMHO.
Spitting hairs? I don't think so. I don't have "decades of experience" but I have ears and I have played the System 8 almost exclusively nearly daily since it came out roughly 3 years ago. I know it very well.

I'm no purist, just pointing out the difference if most there, and it's definitely not close to imperceptible. The Zen equivalence just doesn't have the same clarity most of all. My reference is the MC707.

ACB is diminishing returns yes but it is still a level above ABM. When you have them side by side there is no doubt.

Would I trade my S8 for the Zen sound with the enhanced capabilities? Yes. Others would not.
Old 30th June 2020
  #4788
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Dairy View Post
The Zen equivalence just doesn't have the same clarity most of all. My reference is the MC707
I don't follow - the mc-707 doesn't have ABM models.
Old 30th June 2020
  #4789
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_xyz View Post
I don't follow - the mc-707 doesn't have ABM models.
If Zen is a different thing from Fantom/Jupiter X then I am wrong. But there is a reason ACB is so resource intensive. We will see if ACB gets cancelled whether or not they have plugged the gap in future.
Old 30th June 2020
  #4790
Lives for gear
ABM is specific to the x/xm - this uses zencore as its base but it shapes the VCF filter frequency response (specifically the low end drop off as resonance increases), range limits/scales parameters (eg max resonance, envelope stages etc), changes the structures on the fly and creates macros so single parameters in the model affect multiple parameters in the zencore engine.

This is the whole point of ABM - to painstakingly model the original hardware using those tools as the environment. None of the other synths with zencore can do that.
Old 30th June 2020
  #4791
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ZT Scheer's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Dairy View Post
I don't have "decades of experience" but I have ears and I have played the System 8 almost exclusively nearly daily since it came out roughly 3 years ago. I know it very well.

I'm no purist, just pointing out the difference if most there, and it's definitely not close to imperceptible. The Zen equivalence just doesn't have the same clarity most of all. My reference is the MC707.

ACB is diminishing returns yes but it is still a level above ABM. When you have them side by side there is no doubt. ...
(No snark. I feel like I need to make that clear, as I am direct in my communications, and sometimes that comes across the wrong way)

I strongly suspected as much. I noted a few things in your reply:
  • You're comparison is not to the original instruments which are modeled.
  • You're comparing the ACB/BCM models in the System-8 to the Zencore engine of the MC-707
  • The MC-707 does not have the ABM models of the Jupiter-X.

So, it seems you aren't even discussing a rational point of comparison as it regards the Jupiter-X and its ABM models ... which really do capture the character of the instruments modeled (IMHO, etc.)

So far as your opinion goes in this corrected context, I agree. Zencore does not provide accurate emulations of the kind offered by either ACB/BCM or ABM. They are night/day different.
Old 30th June 2020
  #4792
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realtrance's Avatar
 

Bottom line is, they all sound great in different ways.

I gravitate towards small and elegant is beautiful, so I prefer the miniaturization of function in the styles of the Xm and MC-707 best; they both strike me as being the “densest” instruments Roland has made, packing an enormous amount into very little space with relatively easy access, once you learn the architecture in each case.

The ACB Boutique line is another celebration of this aesthetic, ultimately, an ecologically preferable one.
Old 1st July 2020
  #4793
Here for the gear
 

Dont know they sound the same to me from the roland cloud, but mainly using presets. May be when you start doing heavy real time programming that is when you hear the more details in ACB ? I wonder as I don’t have the system 8 for real time control for the plug ins. The system 8 is a master piece soundwise I am waiting for the System 16 with better keybed if that ever happens. I really like VST emulating analog hardware.
Old 1st July 2020
  #4794
Deleted 13e7993
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by alfiedotwtf View Post
I got the Xm about a month ago but was totally overwhelmed at first (and that's coming from a Virus TI 2). But after reading all the manuals and noodling here and there, the whole structure of scene/part/partial actually makes perfect sense now.

This is now my island synth.
Interesting. You'd really take the Xm over the Virus to your island? High praise indeed.
Old 1st July 2020
  #4795
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goony's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_xyz View Post
ABM is specific to the x/xm - this uses zencore as its base

None of the other synths with zencore can do that.
Not strictly correct as Rolsnd are releasing these models into the Zenology vst this year. With support coming later for the zen core based synths.

Just the start

https://www.roland.com/us/products/r...del_expansion/
Old 1st July 2020
  #4796
Lives for gear
New JX-8P announced for Zenology!
Old 1st July 2020
  #4797
Gear Addict
 

OK I stand corrected, is ABM not even in the Fantom?

Quote:
Originally Posted by goony View Post
Not strictly correct as Rolsnd are releasing these models into the Zenology vst this year. With support coming later for the zen core based synths.

Just the start

https://www.roland.com/us/products/r...del_expansion/
I can see ABM coming to the VST as those with good computing power will be able to handle it, but it's not coming to the MC707 is it?

I suppose maybe it could but it would be a polyphony killer? Certain filters already grab much more polyphony, the 128 advertised is misleading at best.

If ABM comes to other models that could finally pry the S8 from my hands as it is a space hog with not fantastic keyboard. Although I would miss the S8 engine itself, if that could be converted to ABM from ACB that would be very interesting indeed. Though they probably wouldn't want to do that until the S8 HW was discontinued. That native engine really is excellent.
Old 1st July 2020
  #4798
Lives for gear
No, ignoring software, ABM is currently only in the x/xm.

The roland announcement is vague about what exactly is coming to zencore hardware - can be read that other zencore hardware is getting ABM, or can be read that the x/xm will be enhanced by zenology:

https://www.roland.com/us/products/r...del_expansion/

Quote:
Model Expansions work in your DAW via ZENOLOGY—and will soon enhance compatible Roland ZEN-Core hardware.
and

https://www.roland.com/us/company/pr...oftware-Synth/

Quote:
Later in 2020, these titles will also be supported by ZEN-Core hardware instruments like the JUPITER-X and JUPITER-Xm.
Old 1st July 2020
  #4799
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcadia View Post
Well after waiting a while to see how people are liking the synth it’s clear to me that the sound is a winner. Whether it’s exactly the same as ACB is debatable, but then I have Roland Cloud for that stuff. I want a hardware synth that I can play and program - and now I’m debating the X or Xm. I’ve heard Xm owners say it’s just as easy to program because there are only a few less controls, but then again the X is using not just knobs but sliders which I quite like. I have a hard time to believe the experience could really be the same, and naturally the playing experience will be much better on the full-sized keyboard. On the other hand you could just trigger the Xm from another MIDI controller and save a lot of money. I can afford either one, but don’t necessarily want to spend nearly 2x the price if I’m not getting that much more in the end. Do Xm owners have X envy and do X owners feel they’ve gotten their 2495 worth or do you partly wish you’d taken the smaller, more portable version?
I was on the same boat and went for the Xm. No regrets. Don't need another huge synth. The amount of controls added to the X is very small and doesn't help much when deep diving into patch editing. An external editor is needed with both. The X was double the price when the sale on the Xm was going on.
Old 1st July 2020
  #4800
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZT Scheer View Post
(No snark. I feel like I need to make that clear, as I am direct in my communications, and sometimes that comes across the wrong way)

I strongly suspected as much. I noted a few things in your reply:
  • You're comparison is not to the original instruments which are modeled.
  • You're comparing the ACB/BCM models in the System-8 to the Zencore engine of the MC-707
  • The MC-707 does not have the ABM models of the Jupiter-X.

So, it seems you aren't even discussing a rational point of comparison as it regards the Jupiter-X and its ABM models ... which really do capture the character of the instruments modeled (IMHO, etc.)

So far as your opinion goes in this corrected context, I agree. Zencore does not provide accurate emulations of the kind offered by either ACB/BCM or ABM. They are night/day different.
Roland marketing/productizing really needs some punishment for how complex and unclear they made all of this: Zencore, ACB, BCM, ABM, Jeez. I need to go to Harvard or MIT to even discuss all of this I'm looking for Behringer to clone it into WTF models
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