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New Roland Jupiter X / XM
Old 26th March 2020
  #4201
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ZT Scheer's Avatar
I honestly think it's a really bad idea to put any kind of drum-machine in a "super-synth" type product. It makes sense to have drum-machine capability on a workstation-type product, IMHO.

Having it in a "super-synth" gets into those areas where all of a sudden people start wanting auto-accompaniment, full-featured sequencers etc. ... and then they start complaining that there are "only X" parts available ... making apples-to-oranges comparisons with arrangers and workstations, etc.

It just gums up the works and causes confusion, IMHO. I'd like my synths to be synths, and my workstations to be workstations, etc.
Old 26th March 2020
  #4202
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xanax's Avatar
Like i said it's ok.. I didn't buy it for drums. That said XM isn't your typical "super synth".

It was conceived as a "desert island" concept, hence it's swiss-army knife nature imo.

And since they did dedicate a part to drums and have drum kits in there, it is fairly reasonable imho to ask for some kind of editing.

Again, my feeling is it got the cripple hammer in drum department to not steal sales from MC707/101, which also share Zen Core engine.

Last edited by xanax; 26th March 2020 at 09:55 PM..
Old 26th March 2020
  #4203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xanax View Post
Again, my feeling is it got the cripple hammer in drum department to not steal sales from MC707/101, which also share Zen Core engine.
Most likely.
The XM is my next big purchase, but there's a good chance that I'll look hard at the MC-707 (long) after that, the interface on the MC looks fantastic.

But for what's it's worth, I would still be looking at the MC even if the XM had the JD-Xi's sequencer and editing ability.
Old 27th March 2020
  #4204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xanax View Post
Like i said it's ok.. I didn't buy it for drums. That said XM isn't your typical "super synth".

It was conceived as a "desert island" concept, hence it's swiss-army knife nature imo.

And since they did dedicate a part to drums and have drum kits in there, it is fairly reasonable imho to ask for some kind of editing.

Again, my feeling is it got the cripple hammer in drum department to not steal sales from MC707/101, which also share Zen Core engine.
My feeling is that the drums are WIP. The vocoder appears to be WIP too. Zen Core wasn't fully fleshed out at release either. Not all the models are there either. The arp as already seen quite a bit of polish. This product is not feature complete.
Old 27th March 2020
  #4205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZT Scheer View Post
I honestly think it's a really bad idea to put any kind of drum-machine in a "super-synth" type product. It makes sense to have drum-machine capability on a workstation-type product, IMHO.

Having it in a "super-synth" gets into those areas where all of a sudden people start wanting auto-accompaniment, full-featured sequencers etc. ... and then they start complaining that there are "only X" parts available ... making apples-to-oranges comparisons with arrangers and workstations, etc.

It just gums up the works and causes confusion, IMHO. I'd like my synths to be synths, and my workstations to be workstations, etc.
The confusion happens when a new kind of fruit shows up. People base their expectations on previous established categories. They know what " "super-synth", "arranger", "workstation", etc are supposed to be, so they invariably try to fit everything new into those old molds, and then complain that things don't quite fit. The only way to avoid that is to never do anything new.

Anyway, in this case having drums is coherent, to enable the iArp and deliver the "portable studio" concept.
Old 27th March 2020
  #4206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xanax View Post
[...]

Again, my feeling is it got the cripple hammer in drum department to not steal sales from MC707/101, which also share Zen Core engine.
About that: I can't see one eating the sales of the other much, because they're vastly different instruments. They share the Zen Engine, yes, but so will just about every Roland thing for the next decade or so. Part of the goal of Zen is to make it easier to buy multiple Roland instruments.

I know some want a Zen sound module of sorts and currently the MC-707 and JP-Xm are closest to that (or MC-101 if OK with just presets). To those I suggest waiting because it's likely that the Zen engine will show up in a format more fitting to their actual use than the current MC or JP (or FANTOM, or RD, or AX).

I would be surprised if the Zen Engine doesn't end up on the Cloud too.
Old 27th March 2020
  #4207
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xanax's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToyBox View Post
About that: I can't see one eating the sales of the other much, because they're vastly different instruments. They share the Zen Engine, yes, but so will just about every Roland thing for the next decade or so. Part of the goal of Zen is to make it easier to buy multiple Roland instruments.
My point precisely. Roland carefully spec’d each machine so there is minimal overlap. Another example being XM has I-arp but no full blown sequencer, whereas 707 has a good sequencer but no arp.

Zencore. Aira. Boutiques. Same objective for Roland: gotta have em all. This dates back to the original x0x analogs, see my avatar for proof.
Old 27th March 2020
  #4208
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gentleclockdivid's Avatar
 

No drum editing on the jup xm is a missed chance .
On the xv5080 , integra ..while not as deep as the standard pcm synth engine , you still get 4 partials per key , per partial tuning, per partial xfm ( great on bass drums ) + global tuning
An amp, filter ,pitch envelope ..but these work on all partials at once ( per key that is ) , the strucuture routing is also absent in drum mode
Good enough to construct your own drumkits and adjust to taste .
Not making these parameters available in the jup xm is a strange decision from Roland
Old 27th March 2020
  #4209
Gear Head
I would defo not have bought the XM if the 707 had all the synths models it has as this was more important for me than the drums, but I do find it silly that we can't have more controls over the drums in the XM just because Marketing won't allow it... for now .
I'm also curious to see if some of these X synth models will make it to other devices as expensive add-ons. That would mean that you could really buy the device which fits your workflow best and add the missing parts.
Old 29th March 2020
  #4210
Deleted 9079588
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Can i assign Velocity and Offset SL1 and 2 to all 5 parts ?
Old 29th March 2020
  #4211
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jbuonacc's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by xanax View Post
That's what I thought, typical rompler madness.. not at all the type of drum kit flexibility i was hoping for but good for those brave enough to jump through all those hoops!
what sort of (more) flexibility are you looking for with sample-based drums? seems pretty flexible to me just looking at the parameter guide.

EDIT: oh, i see, you'd have to use a synth part for any of that.

Last edited by jbuonacc; 29th March 2020 at 02:50 AM..
Old 29th March 2020
  #4212
Deleted 9079588
Guest
im getting into drums on xm , good for the moment , hope more updates , I love the size of xm , on sofa exploring it the last few weeks , the SL1 only controls each part , can I assign SL1 to all parts together without having too jump to each part , the amount of parameters too have at is grest , the step sequencer is better that none
Old 29th March 2020
  #4213
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xanax's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuonacc View Post
what sort of (more) flexibility are you looking for with sample-based drums? seems pretty flexible to me just looking at the parameter guide.

EDIT: oh, i see, you'd have to use a synth part for any of that.
not only that but you first need to go through all these hoops to get your custom 4 sample drum kit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_xyz View Post

Setting up a single zencore synth part as a 4 sample drum part

I've used some shortcuts to make life easier. It's easiest to start with an init zencore part as that is PCM anyway, so:

part button
model=jp-x int
write button >tone initialize>enter to ok
exit button

should still be in part mode
function button to enter partials mode
press buttons 6,7,8,9 - so all partials are active from the keyboard
shift + button 1 to enter "tone edit partial 1" menu
press 1,2,3,4 together to gang the partials - this means all setting changes affect all partials
set "key rng low" and "key rng upp" to same note so that this sample triggers on single key press eg C3 for both
as we ganged them, all 4 partials are currently set to C3
press buttons 2,3,4 to move to the other partials (which ungangs them) and change their "key rng low" and "key rng upp" note eg D3,E3,F3
(if you want all the drums to be velocity sensitive, press buttons 1,2,3 and 4 together to gang them, scroll down to "level vsens" and set this to how sensitive you want it to be - I find +40 works well for me)

press button 1 to select partial 1 again, so we can select a drum sample for it.

use knob 1 to scroll down to Wav L No. - press shift and turn knob to 2 to quickly get into the 529 ballpark and choose a drum sound for partial 1, using key C3 to audition. There are more drums in "wav gr id=D". Note, some of these are stereo drums split across 2 samples denoted L and R. To use, select the L in "wav L no" and the corresponding R in "wav R no".

do this for the other partials by pressing buttons 2,3,4 and playing D3/E3/F3 to audition the other partials/drums respectively. Whilst in a partial's page, you can use the front panel to go to envelope=amp and set release for long samples eg cymbals, and also use pitch to repitch the samples.
should have been imo an easier way to make custom drum kits (like on MC707) or at least allow individual sound tweaking inside the XMs pre-built drum kits part.
Old 29th March 2020
  #4214
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In fairness, the above was intended to be usable even by someone who hasn't learned the very basics of using the xm, and elements of that have been streamlined with the latest firmware eg partial copying rather than ganging.

It can be summarised for anyone who knows the basics as:

select initialized jup-x part
select partial 1
set keyrange
select sample
tweak via panel or partial menu
copy partial 1 to other partials and edit to taste

That tone can then be saved, so bringing up a 4 drum part is as easy as just loading in the tone to a part - whether that be as a starting point or to have up to 16 drums across all 4 synth parts.

It really is trivial stuff. This repeated idea that it's jumping through hoops is either ignorant or deliberately disingenuous.
Old 29th March 2020
  #4215
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xanax's Avatar
If the process has been streamlined in the lastest update that came out a few days ago then good.

All i did was quote your method, which pardon my ignorance doesn't sound as "trivial" to me as you'd like to make it seem.

Not to mention doing all that times four... only to in the end sacrifice 4 of the 5 parts inside XM just to achieve 16 drums.

Again I admire your perseverance in finding workarounds for what I consider blatant omissions on Roland's part.
Old 29th March 2020
  #4216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xanax View Post
If the process has been streamlined in the lastest update that came out a few days ago then good.

All i did was quote your method, which pardon my ignorance doesn't sound as "trivial" to me as you'd like to make it seem.

Not to mention doing all that times four... only to in the end sacrifice 4 of the 5 parts inside XM just to achieve 16 drums.

Again I admire your perseverance in finding workarounds for what I consider blatant omissions on Roland's part.
There's no "doing all that times four." (there never was before the update either).

We're talking about a minute's worth of setup, done once - then copied for the other 3 partials, then saved as a tone, so there's a template to be used for any other parts in future.

Don't forget this is in addition to the part 5 drums, so these editable drums can be used to supplement a full factory kit.

Yep, it's a workaround - I'd prefer part 5 had editable drums too, but it is trivial to use the tools we've been given to have deep control over individual drum sounds out of the xm.

It's a real pity we can't export our tones as then people wouldn't even need to do the base setup themselves.
Old 29th March 2020
  #4217
Kja
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Can you not copy the drums from part 5 to the tone parts and then edit them?
Old 29th March 2020
  #4218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kja View Post
Can you not copy the drums from part 5 to the tone parts and then edit them?
no

we have very limited things we can do with those part 5 drums. They act essentially as a rigid kit of pre-mapped samples.

In part mode, the knobs give global offset control over all the drum sounds in the kit for some but not all parameters eg filter cutoff and res - but not filter type, amp env but not filter/pitch env, no LFO etc

Not sure if it's full zencore internally but using limited control mapping or else some kind of simple sample engine, but there seems to be scope for at least some basic type individual control in the future.
Old 29th March 2020
  #4219
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xanax's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_xyz View Post
It's a real pity we can't export our tones as then people wouldn't even need to do the base setup themselves.
Another puzzling omission.. I wonder if Roland did that in order to prevent sharing of upcoming patches/kits/packs they may plan to sell to us.
Old 29th March 2020
  #4220
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Yeah, partial copying and scene/tone export were the 2 weird, glaring omissions for me - partial copying was added in the last firmware and that makes life so much easier working with partials, but not being able to export scenes/tones is plain odd.

We can backup the whole system - but as time goes on and scene/tone slots get filled up, we'll reach a point where not being able to move scenes/tones around independently of entire system backups will be an issue.

I'm not quite so cynical for why it's not implemented yet - I think it might be more to do with the x/xm having the models in the mix that extend it beyond just the pure multi-device zencore ecosystem.

I have (almost) no doubt that roland will add the ability to do this - the sooner the better.
Old 29th March 2020
  #4221
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Just a quick note that when using PCM waveforms as the oscillator type in a zencore part, you can select the waveforms for left and right, which work as expected and seem designed to work where a specific left and right sample pair exist in the sound list. What's easy to overlook is that there are settings for "stereo width" and "stereo detune" tucked away at the end of that "tone ptl" menu section (easier to go to the "pitch env" section and then up a few parameters if using the shift+down button method of jumping between menu sections).

"stereo width" defaults to 100 in an init - which hard pans L & R waveforms.

Setting "stereo width" to 0 layers the L and R waveforms, handy for layering 2 drum samples in a single partial for example - but if you select something like raw synth oscillators for both L & R (eg bank A waveform 375 = MG Saw HD), then you can also use the detune to create a thicker/beating 2-oscillator timbre within a single partial. Pretty resource cheap way to get unison type sounds using a few partials. Dialing a bit of "stereo width" back in opens up the sound (even moreso with a little sprinkle of "pan rnd" thrown in for good measure).

I had a look at the integra pcm synth parameter guide and didn't see an equivalent for this, so seems to be new for zencore and might explain the odd positioning at the end of that section, unless I missed something.
Old 30th March 2020
  #4222
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xanax's Avatar
Received my XM today.. what a load of mixed feelings! On the one hand it's a dream come true to have JP8, 106, 101 & JX8P all in one compact package.. on the other, the navigation.. the editing...

I'm sure once I wrap my head around the XM paradigm I'll be in better shape but so many head scratching moments so far.

Biggest frustration, accidently changing scenes and losing all my patch settings (with the inevitable reset to JP8 01 "Berlin Night' )

The manual isn't much help so please bare with me XM experts while I ask some n00b question.

Number one: How on earth do you select OSC 1/2/3/4 for the legacy models? the manual points to the 1-4 sixteen buttons (sub labeled PART/OSC SELECT) but pushing those in every mode does everything but that.
Old 30th March 2020
  #4223
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The "press exit one too many times, thinking you're still in part mode, only to have it change scene when you press a button trying to change part" is a right of passage. There is a new option in the latest firmware that will help until you get the hang of it: menu > system > scene lock=on (then press "write" to make the change permanent).

Quote:
How on earth do you select OSC 1/2/3/4 for the legacy models?
press function first.
Old 30th March 2020
  #4224
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by xanax View Post
Received my XM today.. what a load of mixed feelings! On the one hand it's a dream come true to have JP8, 106, 101 & JX8P all in one compact package.. on the other, the navigation.. the editing...

I'm sure once I wrap my head around the XM paradigm I'll be in better shape but so many head scratching moments so far.

Biggest frustration, accidently changing scenes and losing all my patch settings (with the inevitable reset to JP8 01 "Berlin Night' )

The manual isn't much help so please bare with me XM experts while I ask some n00b question.

Number one: How on earth do you select OSC 1/2/3/4 for the legacy models? the manual points to the 1-4 sixteen buttons (sub labeled PART/OSC SELECT) but pushing those in every mode does everything but that.
(1) Update your OS and enable scene lock.

(2) You will be a much happier man once you get the hang of what the four part/partial/osc/waveform select buttons do depending on whether part or function is selected. [It took me at least a couple of hours to get used to it]
Old 30th March 2020
  #4225
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@ xanax : in case you've not seen them, here are some really handy shortcuts for making life easier:

exit+knob/button - show value
shift+knob/button - jump to that setting in the menus
shift + up/down > jump menu sections
shift+buttons 1-5 in part mode - select part and enable only that part for keyboard
shift+1/2/3/4 in function mode - jump to "tone edit partial 1/2/3/4" menu
hold left/right arrow then immediately press other arrow - fast scroll through menu pages
shift+buttons 1-16 in scene mode - bank >> then release, and press button for scene

and a potential gotcha:
The part on/off buttons (6-10) are only for the keyboard - the parts will still respond via midi, shift and 6-10 to mute.
Old 30th March 2020
  #4226
Gear Maniac
Scott Berry's short videos on the Roland Support YT channel really help to understand the rather peculiar JP-X/m UI:



https://www.youtube.com/user/RUSProductSupport/videos

Must be boring as hell to shoot for a pro musician, so kuddos to him.

Edit : just tried the « 1-5+(S) » function (which is labelled this way on system 1.20), and was feeling kinda like it does not work quite well, albeit the Part/Osc Select changes have been acknowledged all right by the front panel.
Then realized the Part/Osc On setting is applied only when you RELEASE the SHIFT button, actually.
WTF Roland?

Last edited by Poumtschak; 31st March 2020 at 12:25 AM..
Old 31st March 2020
  #4227
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xanax's Avatar
Thanks for the pointers everyone, a couple hours in and I'm starting to wrap my head around the osc/part/model/scene navigation.

Still the accidental scene change hitting exit every now and then, so i'll be updating my unit ASAP and first thing i'll be setting up is scene locks!

Speaking of the update, I noticed 1.2 adds panning to Dual performance mode (surely great for emulating Jupiter-8's dual-mode that hard pans layers).

Is panning available on regular parts? Layering up to 5 synth models in the dead center of the mix isn't exactly ideal.

edit: Any quick shortcut to get to the Tone Edit page? Madness you must hit 10 times the right arrow key to get there.

Last edited by xanax; 31st March 2020 at 09:57 AM..
Old 31st March 2020
  #4228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xanax View Post
Is panning available on regular parts? Layering up to 5 synth models in the dead center of the mix isn't exactly ideal.
Yep, it's in a few places:

"scene part edit>pan" pans parts including the models

in a zencore/jup-x int part, there is pan in "tone common edit" menu, which affects the pan of all partials
and the individual partials also have pan - the partials have pan keyfollow, pan random and pan alt too.
Old 31st March 2020
  #4229
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It can be a bit confusing with all the menus - here's a quick rundown on the structure of the xm:

JP-X Int (The core zencore engine)/XV-5080 Tones and Partials:

Lowest level is a partial - basically a complete synth voice/timbre, with its own oscillator, filter, LFOs, envelopes, mod matrix and eq. Each partial has its own menu - can get to that using right button or function then shift+1/2/3/4 for partials 1/2/3/4

There are lots of parameters in a partial, most useful things to know: use shift and up/down to jump section at a time - filter cutoff/resonance and PCM waveforms are selected in "Tone PTL" section, but it's the bottom "Synth PTL" section where you get to select the type of oscillator (PCM/VA/PCM-Sync/SuperSaw/Noise), the VA waveform, PW/PWM settings, filter type (VCF are better but more resource hungry).

4 of these partials combine to make a tone - the "tone common edit" menu sits above the tones and provides settings that affect all the partials below it. This includes things like unison settings, and also the "structure" settings which are how partials interact with each other for various partial-to-partial modulation eg cross-mod/ring/sync.

Synth Model Tones

The models also exist at the tone level. Unlike zencore, there are no "tone common edit" parameters - and rather than partial menus all the settings for the model synth part live in the "tone edit" menu. Press function and the buttons 1-4 to access oscillator level settings via front panel.

Tone MFX

In addition to the synth tone settings (zencore or model), a tone also includes its individual MFX settings - the menu is the last one if you keep pressing the right button. The new and best (imo) effects are at the end of the "type" list starting at "CE-1". The MFX of a tone can be overridden by the "scene part mfx" menu.

Tone General

Tones can be saved via the write button and saving a tone saves both the synth tone and tone mfx.

Synth Parts - Parts 1 to 4

A synth part is a container for a tone - and the part has its own menu that offsets parameters in the tone - that menu is "scene part edit". This way you can load the same tone into 2 parts and change settings without having to save multiple tones.

Model Banks
A quick note about Model Banks - this is a different mode for the 1-16 buttons. Pressing the "Model Bank" button lets you select a tone using knobs 1 and 2, with the tone selection being all factory and user tones in the synth filtered by the model/category settings of that button eg by default button 1 is a filter than only shows tones where model=jupiter 8. The filters of all 16 buttons can be changed/viewed by holding the "Model Bank" button and pressing one of the buttons. The selected tone is placed in the part that was active/selected before "Model Bank" was pressed.


Rhythm Part - Part 5

The 5th part is the rhythm part, the selectable fixed drumkits. No tones associated with this part.

General Part Settings

There is also a "scene zone edit" menu which although it doesn't say "part" in the name is where you can set up how the part functions for input/output eg keyrange and assignable slider/button behaviour (you can also do keyrange at the partial level).

If you press the left button a few times, you will see there's also an "arp part edit" menu that controls the arp at the part level.

Scenes

At the top level there's the scene, which houses the parts and all their settings - basically everything above the level of a tone. The "scene common edit" menu contains global settings like tempo, overall scene level, top level assignable slider/button settings etc.

If you press the left button, there's an "arp common edit" menu that sits above "arp part edit" settings in the xm hierarchy and changes made there will affect the part arp.

Scenes can be saved by pressing the write button, and that saves all the setup information of the parts, arps etc - but not the underlying tones being used - so need to save both to be able to completely recall a scene.
Old 31st March 2020
  #4230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xanax View Post
edit: Any quick shortcut to get to the Tone Edit page? Madness you must hit 10 times the right arrow key to get there.
in a synth model part, hold shift and turn a knob like cutoff and it'll jump you to that setting in "tone edit" (in a zencore part, it takes you to "scene part edit" unless you are already viewing a tone/partial menu, in which case it jumps to the setting in the selected partial).

This is the behaviour in the latest firmware, I can't remember how it worked in the last version - I have a hazy recollection that it used to go to "scene part edit" in the models in that version.
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