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just opened my juno 6 uk plug and no earth wire is connected ..is this ok?
Old 4 days ago
  #1
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djwaxxy's Avatar
just opened my juno 6 uk plug and no earth wire is connected ..is this ok?

I thought id have a move about in my studio and my juno 6 has never moved so ive decided to move it but to do this ive had to take of the plug so I could pull the cable out.

when I opened the plug I saw its never had a earth connection the blue /brown wire were screwed in but the earth wasn't.

ive had this for nearly 20 years and ive never opened the plug because ive never had to but is this ok?i was always told earth needed to be screwed in but others are saying you don't ..

is it ok too use it without the earth wired in?thanks

ohh yeah im from Manchester uk.
Old 4 days ago
  #2
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autoy's Avatar
Yes it's ok. You may also want to wire the earth wire internally to the synth chassis if you want to use the plug's earth wiring, this is also fine.
Old 4 days ago
  #3
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Bubbleraptor's Avatar
 

I'd guess that the Earth connection has been removed to sort out a ground loop problem in the past? What I'd do is screw it back in to the plug terminal and if there's no hum problem in your setup then it's fine. The earth connection is there for safety reasons in case there's a short in the transformer - it's not good practice to disconnect it no matter how unlikely it is for the equipment to develop power faults. If you do get a ground loop hum with it connected there are other ways to sort that out (e.g. passive DI box).
Old 4 days ago
  #4
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djwaxxy's Avatar
so its safe to use without it wired into the earth?
Old 4 days ago
  #5
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Simonator's Avatar
 

Many countries' plugs don't have an earth connection at all.

Extremely rare to have any earth connection in Japan (where the synth was designed). Also uncommon in the US.
EU system has an earth option (prongs at top and bottom of the circular plug) - but they are often not used and only a flat 2-pin plug is needed.

Whether or not you need an earth depends on the design of the electronics.

I'm guessing that the circuit of this synth is designed without the need for an earth.

Certainly my JX8P (first released 3 years after the Juno 6 launch) has only 2 pins connected.

Although the UK plug system always needs an earth pin on the plug which also serves to open the other two holes, if you look around your devices you'll see that many of those earth pins are made of plastic and so obviously do not conduct - they are just dummies to allow the plug into the wall.
Old 4 days ago
  #6
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TobyToby's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by djwaxxy View Post
so its safe to use without it wired into the earth?
Well, for obvious reasons it is more safe to have the synth chassis connected to earth/ground. . . and it is meant to be that way in the Juno 60 for the EU/UK market. . . Imagine someone spills a drink into your synth

With strong UK health & safety regulations in place we are fortunately living in a country that takes care about their people. In the UK a mains earth connection is required by law. Removing the earth connection from a device that is meant to have one can put someone in prison in the worst case

I've attached a pic from my Juno [before I've rebuild the whole power supply a few years ago]. It clearly shows an earth connection to the chassis
Attached Thumbnails
just opened my juno 6 uk plug and no earth wire is connected ..is this ok?-myjunopsu.jpg  
Old 4 days ago
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simonator View Post
Many countries' plugs don't have an earth connection at all.

Extremely rare to have any earth connection in Japan (where the synth was designed). Also uncommon in the US.
EU system has an earth option (prongs at top and bottom of the circular plug) - but they are often not used and only a flat 2-pin plug is needed.

Whether or not you need an earth depends on the design of the electronics.

I'm guessing that the circuit of this synth is designed without the need for an earth.

Certainly my JX8P (first released 3 years after the Juno 6 launch) has only 2 pins connected.

Although the UK plug system always needs an earth pin on the plug which also serves to open the other two holes, if you look around your devices you'll see that many of those earth pins are made of plastic and so obviously do not conduct - they are just dummies to allow the plug into the wall.
All electrical outlets installed in the US, since the 1960s, are three-pronged (grounded) outlets. I’m not sure why you think it’s uncommon in the US, but maybe I’m misunderstanding.
Old 4 days ago
  #8
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internally ive not opened it up but im guessing its not been touched it was just the normal plug.
I think the guy I bought it off many years go must have taken the earth off for some reason like ground loop noise or something else but ive turned it on and ive been using it for nearly 20 years and im still here so it must be ok..ive just turned it on and playing it and its fine but my god it does need a service the faders crackle but ive been meaning to get it done for years just not had the time or money to get someone to do it.
Old 4 days ago
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djwaxxy View Post
internally ive not opened it up but im guessing its not been touched it was just the normal plug.
I think the guy I bought it off many years go must have taken the earth off for some reason like ground loop noise or something else but ive turned it on and ive been using it for nearly 20 years and im still here so it must be ok..ive just turned it on and playing it and its fine but my god it does need a service the faders crackle but ive been meaning to get it done for years just not had the time or money to get someone to do it.
For safety reasons I would re-attach the earth cable in the mains plug. It doesn't costs anything but a minute
Old 4 days ago
  #10
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Simonator's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ljefe View Post
All electrical outlets installed in the US, since the 1960s, are three-pronged (grounded) outlets. I’m not sure why you think it’s uncommon in the US, but maybe I’m misunderstanding.
Some discussion about it here. To my understanding, some devices are 2 prong and some 3, in the US.

https://electronics.stackexchange.co...ve-third-prong
Old 4 days ago
  #11
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by ljefe View Post
All electrical outlets installed in the US, since the 1960s, are three-pronged (grounded) outlets. I’m not sure why you think it’s uncommon in the US, but maybe I’m misunderstanding.
Maybe because everytime we buy an appliance from the US, there only seems to be 2 pins on the plug?

The same appears true in continental Europe but no doubt I'm about to be corrected
Old 4 days ago
  #12
Gear Maniac
I think all my 80's Akai and Roland gear has the 2 pin sockets into the casing.
Old 4 days ago
  #13
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TobyToby's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ljefe View Post
All electrical outlets installed in the US, since the 1960s, are three-pronged (grounded) outlets. I’m not sure why you think it’s uncommon in the US, but maybe I’m misunderstanding.
You are very polite [I'm not ]
It's in the genetic code of some of them to know everything better even when they don't.

It's also incorrect if smartonator says: "EU system has an earth option"
It's not about options.
In the EU/UK are clear regulations and different classes in place depending on the equipment and its design
Old 4 days ago
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simonator View Post
Some discussion about it here. To my understanding, some devices are 2 prong and some 3, in the US.

https://electronics.stackexchange.co...ve-third-prong
Right, but as the article mentions, modern two-pronged devices are class 2 appliances that shouldn’t connect to earth, they are designed to handle faults internally. In terms of the grid here in the US, all outlets, except in very old buildings, are three-pronged grounded outlets. But I’ve kind of derailed the thread, now, I apologize!
Old 4 days ago
  #15
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Simonator's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TobyToby View Post
You are very polite [I'm not ]
It's in the genetic code of some of them to know everything better even when they don't.
I agree with you entirely that you are being needlessly rude.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TobyToby View Post
You are very polite [I'm not ]
It's also incorrect if smartonator says: "EU system has an earth option"
It's not about options.
It's hard to tell if you are *deliberately* misconstruing my words, but Hanlon's Razor gives you the benefit of the doubt

My original post (that you quoted from) clearly wrote the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simonator View Post
Whether or not you need an earth depends on the design of the electronics.
When I said 'option' I mean for the electronics engineer who's designing the circuit - I was *not* saying, as you appear to have misunderstood it, that a consumer could take a circuit that requires earthing and then whimsically pick or choose if they want to earth it or not.
This should have been apparent to anyone applying some common sense.

The EU plug system has two options:

https://www.worldstandards.eu/WordPr...e-F-200-px.jpg
(grounded)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...hstecker_2.jpg
(not grounded)

... You choose which one is appropriate, depending on the circuit you are designing.

Many devices are 'double-insulated', so an earth connection is unnecessary:
http://double-insulated.com/

Quote:
Originally Posted by TobyToby View Post
In the EU/UK are clear regulations and different classes in place depending on the equipment and its design
The EU system is actually quite different from the UK system. UK plugs need fuses because of the ring circuit system. This isn't the case in the EU spec.
Old 4 days ago
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simonator View Post
I agree with you entirely that you are being needlessly rude.

You're welcome. I only tried to adapt to the social rules I've experienced on my last Hamburg visit

Otherwise I've been clear about the Juno and you were guessing


Quote:
Originally Posted by Simonator View Post
"The EU system is actually quite different from the UK system. UK plugs need fuses because of the ring circuit system. This isn't the case in the EU spec. "
We are talking about safety regulations for electrical equipment. These regulations apply to all EU countries. Having fused mains plugs in the UK [and switchable mains outlets, which is great]is just an add-on to the EU Electrical Equipment (Safety) Regulations. A ring circuit doesn't makes it "quit different" or changes anything when it comes to the general safety rules for electrical equipment
Old 4 days ago
  #17
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Simonator's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TobyToby View Post
Otherwise I've been clear about the Juno and you were guessing
My post literally said 'I'm guessing that the circuit...' ... I never claimed that I was 100% certain.
You came along LATER and posted first-hand knowledge about this specific synth - which is obviously fantastic. I never disputed anything you said about the Juno.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Quote:
Originally Posted by TobyToby View Post
I only tried to adapt to the social rules I've experienced on my last Hamburg visit
Dude, I'm from London, so your xenophobia is extremely misplaced.

Needlessly rude.

Old 4 days ago
  #18
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Robo's Avatar
True that for double insulated equipment the plug can be 'two pronged' with a dummy earth pin. But a synth is generally not double insulated.

If there are any external metal parts on the casing (including switches, knobs, bottom plate), if there is an internal fault where the live wire touches the case inside, and you touch the case on the outside, up to 240 volts could choose to follow a path down through YOU to earth, rather than the earth wire which it would usually take. This would be equivalent to shoving a fork into the live socket.

Countries like Japan got away with it in the past because 100v is slightly easier to survive (and they had some questionable laws) but these days, and definitely in the UK with 230/240v you just don't want to risk it.

If it's already earthed to the metal casing or PSU mount inside the case, reconnect the earth at the plug ASAP.
Old 4 days ago
  #19
Gear Maniac
 
Bubbleraptor's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by djwaxxy View Post
internally ive not opened it up but im guessing its not been touched it was just the normal plug.
I think the guy I bought it off many years go must have taken the earth off for some reason like ground loop noise or something else but ive turned it on and ive been using it for nearly 20 years and im still here so it must be ok..ive just turned it on and playing it and its fine but my god it does need a service the faders crackle but ive been meaning to get it done for years just not had the time or money to get someone to do it.
999 times out of a 1000 having no earth connection on the Juno (or any other device which has an active earth and not a dummy prong) would be fine. People used to disconnect earth cables all the time in live venues because of ground loop issues causing hum through PA's. Nowadays this is actually illegal because all equipment has to be PAT tested and a disconnected earth terminal would fail that safety test. Not trying to be over dramatic here, but as someone who once got a hefty jolt of mains power on my lips through a microphone on stage, I now think earth connections are a good idea
Old 4 days ago
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TobyToby View Post
We are talking about safety regulations for electrical equipment. These regulations apply to all EU countries. Having fused mains plugs in the UK [and switchable mains outlets, which is great]is just an add-on to the EU Electrical Equipment (Safety) Regulations. A ring circuit doesn't makes it "quit different" or changes anything when it comes to the general safety rules for electrical equipment
as far as i'm told, the EU system trips when there a minute variation in amps delivered. it is extremely sensitive. i asked about this, obviously comparing it to the UK system of local fused plugs - something like that. ie: if it's shorting to ground, it cuts out.

the thing about the UK system is that it depends on the fuse blowing, and that can be up to 13A depending on what some bright spark puts in the plug. even 5A or 3A can kill.

Last edited by whatever17; 4 days ago at 06:36 PM..
Old 4 days ago
  #21
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I had a Jupiter-6 that was grounded internally and it actually made the synth quite noisy with ground hum. Once I disconnected it, it was super quiet. So just keep this in mind if you notice ground hum after grounding it.
Old 3 days ago
  #22
< @ TobyToby @ Simonator please stop? Thank you. >
Old 3 days ago
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reptil View Post
< @ TobyToby @ Simonator please stop? Thank you. >
OK Daddy
Old 3 days ago
  #24
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horseface's Avatar
Wow, the last thread I would expect to find GS shenanigans in.
Old 2 days ago
  #25
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7 Hz's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robo View Post
True that for double insulated equipment the plug can be 'two pronged' with a dummy earth pin. But a synth is generally not double insulated.

If there are any external metal parts on the casing (including switches, knobs, bottom plate), if there is an internal fault where the live wire touches the case inside, and you touch the case on the outside, up to 240 volts could choose to follow a path down through YOU to earth, rather than the earth wire which it would usually take. This would be equivalent to shoving a fork into the live socket.

Countries like Japan got away with it in the past because 100v is slightly easier to survive (and they had some questionable laws) but these days, and definitely in the UK with 230/240v you just don't want to risk it.

If it's already earthed to the metal casing or PSU mount inside the case, reconnect the earth at the plug ASAP.
100% the correct answer.

Lifting the earth on the plug is an 'amateur hour' soloution to earth loops - the earth should be lifted on the line level connections between equipment. This takes some research and knowlege though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whatever17 View Post
as far as i'm told, the EU system trips when there a minute variation in amps delivered. it is extremely sensitive. i asked about this, obviously comparing it to the UK system of local fused plugs - something like that. ie: if it's shorting to ground, it cuts out.

the thing about the UK system is that it depends on the fuse blowing, and that can be up to 13A depending on what some bright spark puts in the plug. even 5A or 3A can kill.
UK plug fuses (and fuses in general) aren't there primarily to stop electrocution. They are there to stop the equipment / the main wiring / your house catching on fire and burning to the ground, due to an electrical short (or other failure) where excess current is drawn and things heat up and combust.

The sensitive circuit trip device you are talking about is an RCD - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residual-current_device
Old 2 days ago
  #26
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i had a Tascam MM200 rack mixer, which has 8 stereo inputs, all the sends and returns and sub-inputs, plus a MIDI patchbay onboard, and i noticed it has a
ground-lift switch at the back. nice unit. didn't really think about the switch much until the first time i really connected it all up, using the MIDI patchbay as well.
all going ok until i midi-connect a drum machine, and immediately got a ground hum i'd never had from it before. that was it; considered the Ground Lift switch for a moment, and thought 'no way', and that was the end of that. thing is, it only had a 2-prong plug anyway - like quite a bit of EU older equipment. so off it went to the free ads.

makes me think, actually: i have a few old fx units with metal cases and 2-prong plugs. much as i like them, and internal PSUs instead of external wallwarts, it helps make the case for more recent gear.
Old 1 day ago
  #27
DGL
Gear Addict
The UK system works on the fact that sockets are wired usually on a 30/32A ring final circuit, this has two sets of cables coming out of the fuse box/consumer unit with one of the cables going to the first socket and one to the final socket with all other sockets on the ring wired in-between, this was done to save copper during post WW II rebuilding as it allows you to use cable that is only rated for half the load as the load is split between the two cables.
This is the real reason our plugs have fuses. Due to the 30/32A fusing of all sockets in theory the devices cable could have 32A going through it (I.e. A short or an overloaded , now that could easily catch fire, so there is a fuse in the plug that protects the devices cable from overload.
The only not too great thing about the BS1363 plug is that it's 13A rating is only it's short term rating and for continuous use 10A is the maximum. The addition of a fuse can also cause some localised heating within the plug which is not too good.
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