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First synth: System 8 now or wait for Summit?
Old 1 week ago
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vlz View Post
My point is that the System 8 is more prone to becoming obsolete, as it is just a VA, and more powerful VAs will come. In fact, probably better software running on general purpose hardware will overtake it. It has some serious limitations in terms of not having aftertouch, a not great keyboard with one octave too few, 8-voice limitation. It sounds fine, great to some (I am not so much getting into the merit of this, since the
Summit cannot be tested). But who knows, it might become a classic. Roland might update it, rendering older models less desirable.

The fact that the Summit has digital oscillators is neither here nor there. They're just standard modules of an architecture that is well established. It's quite a different thing from having a box that runs software.

I think it's more suitable to compare the System 8 with something like the King Korg, and by the same token, the Summit with say the Prologue or the Sequential offerings.

Again, that's my opinion, no one needs to agree.
Cool man. I do disagree that a synth can be made obsolete just because something new comes out. If it works and sounds good, why is it obsolete?

The Summit is probably 90% as digital as the System-8. It runs software. It's core functions / displays / oscillators / modulation / mod matrix / effects are all digital with some analog VCFs / VCAs in the signal chain. But at it's core it's still a digital synth.

Better software / more powerful chips / VA's can surely overtake it's core components too, no?
Old 1 week ago
  #122
vlz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drxcm View Post
Cool man.

The Summit is probably 90% as digital as the System-8. It runs software. It's core functions / displays / oscillators / modulation / mod matrix / effects are all digital with some analog VCFs / VCAs in the signal chain. But at it's core it's still a digital synth.

Better software / more powerful chips / VA's can surely overtake it's core components too, no?
Very different thing to have an audio signal chain starting with digital oscillators then moving into the analogue domain to having a box running a model. You could not make the Summit suddenly run a different synth model.

It's not really a question of what's digital
and what's not.
Old 1 week ago
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vlz View Post
Very different thing to have an audio signal chain starting with digital oscillators then moving into the analogue domain to having a box running a model. You could not make the Summit suddenly run a different synth model.

It's not really a question of what's digital
and what's not.
Of course they are different. Don't get me wrong. I love analog, digital and hybrids in all forms. There is no 'better' approach.

And the Summit could almost certainly be programmed via firmware to run different oscillator models. In fact didn't they add a whole bunch of waveforms to the Peak after it's release?

I think you've missed my point entirely. What you were suggesting is that they shouldn't be compared because the System-8 is somehow more likely to be superceded by a new synth than the Summit. This is simply not true. Any synth can be superceded. It has nothing to do with analog / digital or hybrid technology. As an example, the Peak engine has been superceded by the new filter design on the Summit.
Old 1 week ago
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vlz View Post
[...]

It's not really a question of what's digital
and what's not.
You say that yet insist on treating VAs differently...?

Anyway, what decides how long a synth remains useful is how well they fulfill people's needs, how fit they are for their purpose, not what they're made of or how they work. That's why you'll find old underpowered designs like a model D or microKORG* right next to modern and far far far more powerful designs. It ain't about what's inside it's about what it does.

*4 voice VA engine from year 2000, probably running on a 90s chip, think about that. No USB port either. Still selling.
Old 1 week ago
  #125
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.. in any case it sounds like the OP has already made their choice by purchasing a System-8.

The right decision IMO. I wouldn’t swap mine for a Summit!

Old 1 week ago
  #126
vlz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToyBox View Post
You say that yet insist on treating VAs differently...?

Anyway, what decides how long a synth remains useful is how well they fulfill people's needs, how fit they are for their purpose, not what they're made of or how they work. That's why you'll find old underpowered designs like a model D or microKORG* right next to modern and far far far more powerful designs. It ain't about what's inside it's about what it does.

*4 voice VA engine from year 2000, probably running on a 90s chip, think about that. No USB port either. Still selling.
Model D is actually an example of what I mean. It's a hw instrument, a classic design and it is more sought after than a VA emulation of it.

The microKorg may still sell well for the DJ market as it is inexpensive, but the MS2000 on which it was based, was retired within four years of introduction. Some may find its quirkiness and sound cute, but it is underpowered and cannot compare with one of today's VAs.
Old 1 week ago
  #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vlz View Post
I know the OP made a decision already and I guess this post is not contributing to that discussion. However I want to give my two cents, for what it's worth...

The comparison between these two synths is a nonstarter. On one side, you have a possibly end of line instrument, with a hardware part that will be taken as underpowered in a few years if it is not considered so already. On the other, a brand new machine, not yet out, some unknown quantity but based on a well known design, which is sounding great in the demos and may become a classic.

The thing is that VA platforms get superseded quite quickly, after all they're computers, and anyone owning a computer knows the story. Real platforms, be it a fully analogue or a hybrid, don't really suffer from the same malaise. Ok, components go after a while, but it's fixable. An underpowered computer, even if it is cute, still is underpowered.

So, first I think we might be comparing apples and oranges, but if we insist in opposing them, I think there is no real question, the summit is a better proposition.

I understand people have their own feelings and predilections, but that aside, I couldn't rationally choose the system8.
Its true that VA can be replaced by a new model that offers more, but whether or not it is considered “obsolete” is up to the owner. I mean, we already have a synth that is two Peaks, so how many people will replace their Peak with a Summit? I bet it’s a lot. Is my Peak “under powered? I don’t feel like it is.

One thing that’s for sure is that new synths will keep getting released. You can choose to upgrade or not. I’d love a Summit, but I won’t upgrade. Too big, and while I like the sound a lot, I’m not sure that I love it.
Old 1 week ago
  #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vlz View Post
Model D is actually an example of what I mean. It's a hw instrument, a classic design and it is more sought after than a VA emulation of it.
The Model D was superseded by the Voyager. It’s got more of everything, but a lot of people don’t like it as much and consider it a downgrade.
Old 1 week ago
  #129
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by vlz View Post
My point is that the System 8 is more prone to becoming obsolete, as it is just a VA, and more powerful VAs will come. In fact, probably better software running on general purpose hardware will overtake it. It has some serious limitations in terms of not having aftertouch, a not great keyboard with one octave too few, 8-voice limitation. It sounds fine, great to some (I am not so much getting into the merit of this, since the
Summit cannot be tested). But who knows, it might become a classic. Roland might update it, rendering older models less desirable..
I think this is totally ignoring what Roland intended for the System 8 vs what you wanted to see in the System 8. Based on what it is, and what we've seen, it was intended to be a better (better than the System 1) host for plug-outs of their old gear, plus the S8 engine itself, and nothing more. The whole AIRA line (along with the obviously closely related Boutique lineup) has pretty much been about the emulations of older gear and live performance.

Not having aftertouch really means nothing in that respect. None of the earlier modeled instruments had aftertouch nor velocity. They keyboard feel and size are totally personal preference, I don't find an issue with either one. 8-voice limitation? I could see that being more of a limitation but again given what the instrument is, I don't view it as such.

I think they set out to do what they intended with the S8, not sure how it's ever going to become obsolete, anymore than my Pro One is.
Old 1 week ago
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToyBox View Post
You say that yet insist on treating VAs differently...?
Yes he does, and so concludes the useful avenues of speculation. I guess we'll just have to wait 30 years and see what people are doing then (and then discuss what they should have chosen instead).

Quote:
Originally Posted by rezoneight View Post
I think this is totally ignoring what Roland intended for the System 8 ... Not having aftertouch really means nothing in that respect. None of the earlier modeled instruments had aftertouch nor velocity. They keyboard feel and size are totally personal preference, I don't find an issue with either one ... I think they set out to do what they intended with the S8
Right -- the difference between individual preference and market possibility. Otherwise we might as well say the Sub 37 is a failure, having only three octaves (what WERE they thinking???).
Old 1 week ago
  #131
vlz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPogo View Post
Right -- the difference between individual preference and market possibility. Otherwise we might as well say the Sub 37 is a failure, having only three octaves (what WERE they thinking???).
I fail to see why you brought out the Sub37, it's a mono synth, it's designed well for what it is, and given its price point and the Moog badge/sound, it does well.
Whereas the hw limitations of the System 8 are for all to see, limited polyphony
(it's a VA ffs, no discrete modules, just software), limited keyboard (also I don't buy the "originals did not have it", after all it has its own "native" synth model which is not based "on the originals").

You don't need to wait 30 years. Just look at VAs from the late 90s/early 00s,
versus full-hw (not much choice from the same vintage, but say a problem-free A6) and compare which ones are more coveted. I know people buy JDs etc but that's also a question of affordability. If you were offered a modern VA such as System 8 vs picking up a JD, which one do you think is the best option? Trickier to answer if you were offered an A6 (fully working) vs a newer hw synth (analogue or hybrid).

From the beginning, I said we're comparing two different types of instruments,
people will have their own preferences. That's perfectly fine. I would never myself pick a System 8 over a synth like the Summit.
Old 1 week ago
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPogo View Post

Popularity is a fickle mistress. I don't recall anyone being particularly ga-ga over these synths when they were new -- as evidenced by how quickly people threw them over for digital gear.
Eh what?

You obviously weren't a synth buyer then..

So don't make stuff up.
Old 1 week ago
  #133
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by vlz View Post
I fail to see why you brought out the Sub37, it's a mono synth, it's designed well for what it is, and given its price point and the Moog badge/sound, it does well.
Whereas the hw limitations of the System 8 are for all to see, limited polyphony
(it's a VA ffs, no discrete modules, just software), limited keyboard (also I don't buy the "originals did not have it", after all it has its own "native" synth model which is not based "on the originals").
Maybe the chips they used cant handle more than 8 voices driving the software. You might not "buy it" but the S8 model does fine without aftertouch. I for one haven't missed aftertouch on mine, there are plenty of ways to modulate the sound. I have multiple keyboards with aftertouch, have never used it. Just isn't something I care about so your limitation isn't a limitation to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vlz View Post
You don't need to wait 30 years. Just look at VAs from the late 90s/early 00s,
versus full-hw (not much choice from the same vintage, but say a problem-free A6) and compare which ones are more coveted. I know people buy JDs etc but that's also a question of affordability. If you were offered a modern VA such as System 8 vs picking up a JD, which one do you think is the best option? Trickier to answer if you were offered an A6 (fully working) vs a newer hw synth (analogue or hybrid).
To the first question: a System 8. I bought one because of what it does, not what I hoped it would do. That question totally depends on what the person wants. The System 8 market isn't the same as that of the JDs. It's made for people who want the emulations. Many have noted in the S8 thread that they bought one for the emulations but ended up using the S8 engine itself more. Others (like me) wanted the JP8/JU106 emulations because they're good and we have no interest in trying to get/maintain the originals.

As to the second question...I wouldn't want an Andromeda, I'd want newer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vlz View Post
From the beginning, I said we're comparing two different types of instruments,
people will have their own preferences. That's perfectly fine. I would never myself pick a System 8 over a synth like the Summit.
Because you probably aren't the person who wants what the System 8 offers. I agree, they're nothing alike. You buy the S8 for what it is, the Summit isn't that, it's a different beast.
Old 1 week ago
  #134
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Turned into quite an interesting conversation
So yes, I’m definitely getting the S8.
I get it some people saying the two are different.
It’s just that I was convinced I was getting the S8 until I saw an advertisement of the Summit and was wondering if it would make any sense going that route.
But I’ll get the S8 as I think it’s great for getting started and I take the plug-outs as a nice extra. I did read some great reviews about the S8’s own engine so that made me decide for that one.
Again, thanks for all the comments, much appreciated.
Old 1 week ago
  #135
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by GRProductions View Post
Turned into quite an interesting conversation
So yes, I’m definitely getting the S8.
I get it some people saying the two are different.
It’s just that I was convinced I was getting the S8 until I saw an advertisement of the Summit and was wondering if it would make any sense going that route.
But I’ll get the S8 as I think it’s great for getting started and I take the plug-outs as a nice extra. I did read some great reviews about the S8’s own engine so that made me decide for that one.
Again, thanks for all the comments, much appreciated.
And obviously....you can always sell it
Old 1 week ago
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthstrategy View Post
Eh what?

You obviously weren't a synth buyer then..

So don't make stuff up.
You're right, I wasn't. But I was a practicing and performing musician, and didn't hear people marveling over Juno/Jupiter synths, except to copy the sound from a specific record (e.g., the Oberheim on Rush's "Subdivisions"). But then, I was primarily in original projects, so there was no desire/incentive to reproduce other people's work. Which shows how insulated individual worlds can become -- i.e., "everyone I know is doing x" = soon breeds the view that "everyone is doing x".

The synths I was hearing named were the Fairlight and the Synclavier, because they changed the way recordings could be made. And the DX7 of course, and the Mirage, because they changed the way performing could be done. The rest were just "synths", the way most of us don't particularly notice brands of bass or drums.

Meanwhile, people did dump those other synths in favor of the ones I name above (e.g., the keyboardist I was playing with dumped his Prophet 600 when he got a Mirage). No doubt there were people who loved and celebrated those 80s Rolands for themselves regardless of trends or styles, and I just didn't meet them.
Old 1 week ago
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vlz View Post
I fail to see why you brought out the Sub37, it's a mono synth, it's designed well for what it is, and given its price point and the Moog badge/sound, it does well.
Whereas the hw limitations of the System 8 are for all to see ...
Exactly -- define anything by what it's not, and of course it comes out poorly. I don't think the S8 is a poor achiever at its own goal. You do. Neither of us is necessarily right or wrong; it does what it does ... or more importantly, its user can do whatever they can do, which has its limits and its qualities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vlz View Post
You don't need to wait 30 years. Just look at VAs from the late 90s/early 00s, versus full-hw (not much choice from the same vintage, but say a problem-free A6) and compare which ones are more coveted.
I can't help noticing that 'covet' is more about what people imagine they'd like (but have never actually had), as opposed to what they actually used. Meanwhile, there are people who once had Junos or Jupiters and are quite satisfied with the S8's VA. There are also people who are still buying used Junos -- sometimes because they had one previously -- and are quite happy with them.

Could it be better? LOL, well yes -- as can every synth. Of course, that just means that what it doesn't do, I don't feel I need. Isn't that how it always goes?
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