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Trying to pick a Hardware Sequencer is sort of maddening
Old 3 weeks ago
  #241
Gear Guru
 
Muser's Avatar
these are the extended operations I whittled my midi editing use down to. it's currently down to a list of 37 operations. the list omits split and join notes or any selection criteria like, previous or next selected note, or previous / next selected notes with same pitch etc. but other than that, it's probably the fewest I could get it down to. these events are set up for icon button trigger ability via a touch toolbar based system, but also could be bound to other triggers such as physical buttons or OSC external events if needs be. but in either case they are single events type operations. note that some are on off state toggles such as follow playhead and the toggles.

the difficulty is figuring out how to display the right cluster of groups for any small screen interface so the operations stay intelligible for the most workflows under the most conditions. if any Devs are looking in, they might find them a useful list. I find most of the critical tasks can generally be carried out with these functions, to a precision degree of certainty. one aspect to be aware of though, is that the precision of a cursor placement can be lossy, depending on the zoom resolution.

37 operations:

follow play head
zoom in horizontally +
zoom out horizontally -
zoom in vertically +
zoom out vertically -
zoom in to selected item/s
zoom to show all content

select All
unselect All
move edit cursor to start of selected event/s
move edit cursor to end of selected event/s
move left edge of note/s to the edit cursor
extend selected note/s to the edit cursor
move edit cursor by equal beat divisions Left
move edit cursor by equal beat divisions Right

Invert Selection

mute or unmute selected event
select muted events
toggle into note eraser
delete selected events

set note length to 16th
set note length to 32nd

move note/s Left by one tick
move note/s Right by one tick
move notes up by one semitone
move notes down by one semitone

show the View Filter
toggle limit editing to Filtered view

toggle the correction of overlapping notes while editing is taking place
make a time selection based on the start and end of selected notes
toggle between move or leave selected controller data for selected event/s when moving note events

copy selected events
paste at same position as first selected copy event
paste at cursor position
undo
redo

send All Midi Notes OFF
Old 3 weeks ago
  #242
Lives for gear
The enduring problem Akai have is trying to maintain the mpc workflow their users are accustomed to. This holds them back. They should probably have broken away clean with the Force.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #243
Lives for gear
 
sentokan's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmanic View Post
I expected a lot more than I got. For starters, I expected the touch screen in combination with the physical buttons to be smartly used when it comes to sequencing. I expected a lightning fast workflow for inserting notes, deleting, moving, copying and pasting. I expected to be able to quickly select notes on the touch screen and then use the corresponding hardware buttons to do the function they say they do. This is not the case. The delete/erase button doesn't actually delete or erase anything (it's only there for pad/sampling functions). Same with copy/paste, duplicate etc.

The piano roll is extremely simplistic and down right silly in it's workflow. There's no relative copy/paste. Instead everything is absolute which always quantizes the first note to the play cursor.. basically you can't copy "empty" space in relation to the play cursor and your selection, thus instantly killing any kind of groove or syncopation that is in the selection of notes.

You need to constantly change modes from selection to deletion to "writing pen" etc. All done on the touch screen without any shortcuts on the physical buttons. The rotary encoders are really poorly implemented as well. There's no way to quickly add notes by scrolling the play cursor and banging in notes on the pads.. so no step recording within the piano roll. This could easily be implemented. Instead they have a horribly convoluted and silly separate step sequencer page which is extremely annoying to use as you get no fine tune over note positions (so no shifting of ticks either forward or backwards).

Then there's the 'nudge' feature, which doesn't let you use the full 960ppq resolution, even when you've switched all snapping off and even if you have zoomed right into the fine details. Instead it nudges notes 4 ticks at a time.. sometimes randomly at 3 ticks and 5 ticks. Yet the 'Note Start' and 'Note End' fine tune feature does allow 1 tick resolution when zoomed close enough into the details.

.. speaking of zoom. You'll be constantly pinch-zooming with your fingers as there are no intelligent zoom-to-selection options and no memory locations for zoom/position that could be quickly recalled. The endless encoders can be used to move and zoom but the actual implementation is horrible. The encoder response is almost completely linear and extremely unsensitive which means you'll be turning that knob like crazy for minimal actual scrolling of the page or zoom.

The endless encoders implementation in general is poor and inconsistently implemented in the MPC Live/X. It's like they have no QA team actually going through the fine details and checking how the controls behave in different situations. It feels almost completely random. For instance when the endless encoders are used on some effects parameters the slightest touch may jump huge ranges of values while on other effects parameters you'll be turning the encoder like a mad man for minimal gain.

Then there's the whole MIDI implementation. Sigh.. it's not even properly multi-timbral and cuts out running sequences when changing to another track. For live use when you need things running, while mucking about in other menus and sequencing additional tracks, it's just horribly inconsistent and weird. Again, nobody has seemingly sat down to really think about the workflow. It's as if they completely forgot that one of these product lines has "Live" in the name.

Even though the MPC Live/X is basically a computer with a touch screen they haven't used it effectively. There's no intelligent and proper use of double tapping. Nor have they used any other gestures properly. There's so much that can be done with a touch screen that it's infuriating how simplistic the use is here on the MPC Live/X.

For instance, why on earth can't I use double tap in all modes for selecting notes, or deleting notes, or even copying notes (double tap + drag). Double tap should be user configurable in multiple areas of the device. Why can't I always do a double tap + drag on empty space to create a selection box? Or use a long hold tap for other functions? There are so many completely missed opportunities here. An efficient and intelligent workflow is almost completely missing on this thing.. yet there is potential greatness due to the very responsive touch screen and all the physical buttons and controls! So frustrating.

AKAI could absolutely have cornered the whole music workstation / main sequencer market with this line of products if they'd only taken it a bit further and got out of their little box that is stuck in the 90's.

On paper it looks like a killer product!

Touch screen.
Long battery life.
Powerful potential standalone features.
Good overall build quality with amazing drum pads!
Extremely good connectivity, especially on the X

The hardware IS good. The software is the massive letdown part.
All true, but which is now a better sequencer, that does at least half of these things??
Old 3 weeks ago
  #244
Lives for gear
MPC 1000 W/JJOS2xl

Anything MIDI..limitless,

Yes, it does CV....6 outputs and no limit to the sequence length.

Dunno why people even bother going elsewhere?

Although I hear that RS7000 is pretty cool...and unique, never tried one, but it sounds GOOD.

If all you need is MIDI that a $100 (or less) Yamaha QY70 will do 16 track of whatever you throw at it, with unique features of its own.

I own an Octatrack.....stupid, arbitrary, designer imposed limitations that are less than the industry standard should make you think twice (About ANY Elektron device, if they give you something with one hand they are taking something away with the other)

But for MIDI sequencing, get something old, MIDI sequencers have gotten WORSE over the last 20 years.

Analog sequencing (real analog sequencing, where you aren't using a digital sample of a CV) You may need to get one of the new ones.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #245
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sentokan View Post
All true, but which is now a better sequencer, that does at least half of these things??
Some old workstation synths do the sequencing a lot better (Kurzweil K series, Roland XP/XV, Yamaha Motif and the predecessor, Korg Triton/Trinity and evolutions). My little "toy" like Yamaha QY70 does sequencing a lot better.

So yeah, I agree with the above poster. Sequencing has been dumbed down significantly in the past few years.

The Roland (MV series) and Yamaha (QY and RS) workstation sequencers are probably at the top when it comes to capabilities and quick workflow.

Then there are the various strange indie oddities like Teenage Engineering OP-1 and their new OP-Z that show just how well a thought out workflow even in a limited package can work.

Like I said, the MPC Live/X has tremendous potential from a purely hardware standpoint. There is literally no reason for the system to be so incapable as it is. Even retaining the oldschool MPC workflow there is really no reason for it to be this simplistic.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #246
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by terrible.dee View Post
MPC 1000 W/JJOS2xl

Anything MIDI..limitless,

Yes, it does CV....6 outputs and no limit to the sequence length.

Dunno why people even bother going elsewhere?

Although I hear that RS7000 is pretty cool...and unique, never tried one, but it sounds GOOD.

If all you need is MIDI that a $100 (or less) Yamaha QY70 will do 16 track of whatever you throw at it, with unique features of its own.

I own an Octatrack.....stupid, arbitrary, designer imposed limitations that are less than the industry standard should make you think twice (About ANY Elektron device, if they give you something with one hand they are taking something away with the other)

But for MIDI sequencing, get something old, MIDI sequencers have gotten WORSE over the last 20 years.

Analog sequencing (real analog sequencing, where you aren't using a digital sample of a CV) You may need to get one of the new ones.
Wait, an MPC1000 has DC coupled I/Os and can already record and playback CV just like Audio?

I guess I missed that feature in the MPC1000.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #247
Kja
Lives for gear
I don't really all for much, but I have been happy with my opz.. really if the digitakt had CV it would be pretty good too, but it's not a huge deal really.. I had a qy700 and a mpc 1000 the past and I'm not going back to those! They might have more features but I hate working on those things, good if your into scientific calculator and stuff I guess..
Old 3 weeks ago
  #248
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kja View Post
I don't really all for much, but I have been happy with my opz.. really if the digitakt had CV it would be pretty good too, but it's not a huge deal really.. I had a qy700 and a mpc 1000 the past and I'm not going back to those! They might have more features but I hate working on those things, good if your into scientific calculator and stuff I guess..
You find the OP-Z is less like a calculator than the MPC1000? I would not have thought that. I guess the size of the OP-Z would make it seem so.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #249
Lives for gear
 
badmark's Avatar
OP, are you buying a sequencer with a view to performing live or only using it in studio? Because if you are thinking of performing live then the KISS principle will apply whereas in the studio there's no such limitations to the complexity and easy performative repeatability of your system.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #250
Kja
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bignatius View Post
You find the OP-Z is less like a calculator than the MPC1000? I would not have thought that. I guess the size of the OP-Z would make it seem so.
Yes, yes I do.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #251
Kja
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bignatius View Post
You find the OP-Z is less like a calculator than the MPC1000? I would not have thought that. I guess the size of the OP-Z would make it seem so.
Yes, yes I do.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #252
I am using Halion and Geist recently as my sequencers. Pair that with a Novation Remote or something like it and you have a good system you can route to all your external hardware.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #253
Gear Addict
 
chaocrator's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by terrible.dee View Post
MPC 1000 W/JJOS2xl
Anything MIDI..limitless,
Dunno why people even bother going elsewhere?
i can tell why i did not buy MPC1000 and looked elsewhere — polymeters.
native MPC1000 OS does not support polymeters at all, and JJOS has limited/incomplete support (Simult Sequence feature).

so, bought RM1x, where every track in the pattern has independent loop point (and then MC-80, and then Squarp Pyramid)
Old 3 weeks ago
  #254
Gear Head
 

I think it’s clear that we all have features that are ‘do or die’ and no sequencers that do everything for everyone.

I use a Pyramid and whilst it does almost everything I could want from a sequencer, I don’t find it fun to use as a performance/groovebox ideas machine.

The beatstep pro has this in spades but even then i’m looking for more capable (polyphonic) sequencers that can do probability/ratchets/etc quickly.

The Squid looks good as does (in a funny way) the op-z.

I think I am resigned to the idea that I make ideas on one but arrange these on the Pyramid. Hardly slick.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #255
Lives for gear
 
time_zone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoTheMu View Post

I use a Pyramid and whilst it does almost everything I could want from a sequencer, I don’t find it fun to use as a performance/groovebox ideas machine.
I know what you are saying !
Fun:


Not fun:


Old 3 weeks ago
  #256
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by time_zone View Post
I know what you are saying !
Fun:


Not fun:


Don’t get me wrong, I’m not putting the pyramid down. I just find it easier to generate new ideas on a simpler machine. I’m not sure I’m alone, either.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #257
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by terrible.dee View Post
Although I hear that RS7000 is pretty cool...and unique, never tried one, but it sounds GOOD.

If all you need is MIDI that a $100 (or less) Yamaha QY70 will do 16 track of whatever you throw at it, with unique features of its own.

I own an Octatrack.....stupid, arbitrary, designer imposed limitations that are less than the industry standard should make you think twice (About ANY Elektron device, if they give you something with one hand they are taking something away with the other)

But for MIDI sequencing, get something old, MIDI sequencers have gotten WORSE over the last 20 years.

Analog sequencing (real analog sequencing, where you aren't using a digital sample of a CV) You may need to get one of the new ones.
Although the RS7000 is a good and interesting, I wouldn't say it sounds especially good.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #258
Gear Addict
 
chaocrator's Avatar
as for me, both are fun. in a live situation, i'd operate the simpler one, and let the sequencer do it for me with the knobby one.
well, i actually do right that, just with different models of gear.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #259
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by Treebase DMX View Post
HmmI was very close to hitting the BUY button on a HUION touch display.

What do you use (brand, size) and how good is it really in terms of response? I think these screens come with a special glove so that your hand does not touch the screen when using a pen ?

my reservation is that the stylus does not seem to have any way to attach it to the screen and I know for a fact that I would lose it within minutes...
and also... that turning virtual knobs on screen with the pen or my finger is not gonna be good...any comments?
I try to limit my use of the touchscreen to "live" operations like hitting play or stop, or loading a new rack in gig performer.

For turning knobs, the gig performer interface works pretty well under touch.

My more detailed editing I do with mouse and keyboard.

Let me dredge up the name of the touchscreen I got it off amazon.

Edit - the monitor is a gehic 1503i 15.6 inch portable touchscreen monitor
Old 3 weeks ago
  #260
Gear Nut
Also someone mentioned the kurzweil k series keyboards has having good sequencers - I can second that, my k2600xs has a n excellent sequencer and the manual explains it well. I got it for 550 usd which is competitive with lots of other sequencers, and of course it does a lot of other stuff. So keep it in mind. You can get earlier k2500 for even cheaper.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #261
Gear Addict
 
7Wave's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perplexo View Post
Although the RS7000 is a good and interesting, I wouldn't say it sounds especially good.
I guess it's all subjective, but I really like the way the RS7000 sounds. It's probably my favorite groovebox overall. Nothing flashy about the soundset, but it covers the bases well and the remix effects are really good. The sequencer is second to none if you're looking to sequence other units.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #262
Gear Addict
 
7Wave's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gminorcoles View Post
Also someone mentioned the kurzweil k series keyboards has having good sequencers - I can second that, my k2600xs has a n excellent sequencer and the manual explains it well. I got it for 550 usd which is competitive with lots of other sequencers, and of course it does a lot of other stuff. So keep it in mind. You can get earlier k2500 for even cheaper.
I never really thought about it that way, but you're right. K2500's and K2600's are now cheap enough that you can justify getting one just for the sequencer -- setting aside the fact that they have nice onboard sounds and VAST.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #263
Lives for gear
 
Lady Gaia's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by gminorcoles View Post
Also someone mentioned the kurzweil k series keyboards has having good sequencers - I can second that, my k2600xs has a n excellent sequencer and the manual explains it well. I got it for 550 usd which is competitive with lots of other sequencers, and of course it does a lot of other stuff. So keep it in mind. You can get earlier k2500 for even cheaper.
The Kurzweil sequencer in the K2500 was pretty solid for the era but they haven’t really made any headway since then, so it’s lacking in a lot of areas by modern standards. There’s only “song” mode, so no pattern chaining. Either it works for you or it doesn’t and it hasn’t changed much in the years since on more recent boards. I find it to be a decent scratchpad but I’d be delighted if they showed it a little love somewhere down the road.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #264
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perplexo View Post
Although the RS7000 is a good and interesting, I wouldn't say it sounds especially good.
The drum sounds in it are great. Crisp, crunchy, and banging.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #265
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 7Wave View Post
I guess it's all subjective, but I really like the way the RS7000 sounds. It's probably my favorite groovebox overall. Nothing flashy about the soundset, but it covers the bases well and the remix effects are really good. The sequencer is second to none if you're looking to sequence other units.
I agree it's a great box. And as @ sds1fs1r says, the drum sounds are pretty banging. It would just be so awesome if Yamaha had put a "normal" Yamaha synth engine in there + the plg tech they had at the time. And more sample edit functions.

But it's definitely a great box - I have two of them

Last edited by Perplexo; 3 weeks ago at 08:01 AM..
Old 3 weeks ago
  #266
Gear Addict
 
chaocrator's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by sds1fs1r View Post
The drum sounds in it are great. Crisp, crunchy, and banging.
absolutely. i love RM1x, which has the same onboard sounds, as a drum machine.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #267
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmanic
I expected a lot more than I got.
That sums up my experience with hardware sequencers and various devices featuring silicone pads... such as Push 1/2, Maschine mk2/3 and a few others. Toys with flashing coloured lights to impress the girls.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #268
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chaocrator View Post
absolutely. i love RM1x, which has the same onboard sounds, as a drum machine.
I do not like rm1x sounds, they feel flat. I don't use any of its sounds, but it has a cool sequencer.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #269
Gear Addict
 
Zapman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7Wave View Post
I guess it's all subjective, but I really like the way the RS7000 sounds. It's probably my favorite groovebox overall. Nothing flashy about the soundset, but it covers the bases well and the remix effects are really good. The sequencer is second to none if you're looking to sequence other units.
I use the RS 7000 as my centerpiece of my gear for a long time now. All the new options coming out recently (Pyramid, Squid, Force, etc, etc) still have some annoyances, which keep me from switching. 1010 blackbox looks interesting, since it seems to cover the sampling stuff quite well, which is the weakest point of the RS7000 (the technology was just not capable enough back then). If the RS7k had the Flash Memory option of the Motif, it would have been killer. The 1010 blackbox seems a bit limited controlwise, but seems to be easily expandable with using midi-contollers to trigger all kinds of stuff via midi. Its also very compact and still has those individual outs, slicing, timestretching etc.
Seems like 2019 is really going to be the year for the return of the hardware sequencers. Really exciting.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #270
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chaocrator View Post
absolutely. i love RM1x, which has the same onboard sounds, as a drum machine.
They don't have the same sounds. As far as I know, the rm1x has a 4mb ROM, while the RS7000 has a 32mb ROM. I could be mistaken about the RS7000, though
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