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Trying to pick a Hardware Sequencer is sort of maddening
Old 2 weeks ago
  #391
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shreddoggie's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by gravyface View Post
Cool. The "Drum" one: I can't think of a sequencer like that on the market, unless I'm being dense?
Pad based drum machine (usually voices are samples rather than synthesis tho the Elektron AR is an exception - an interesting hybrid since it has 16 step buttons too, but irrelevant to this exact discussion since it only sequences its internal sounds). MPC Live and X are examples currently on the market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trick fall View Post
This is a good overview based off fo the sequencers I've personally used.

I'd been thinking about buying the Pyramid for a long time, but for some reason just never pulled the trigger and then instead bought a Digitakt which I absolutely love for sample tracks, but found a bit frustrating for MIDI tracks. About two weeks ago I impulsively jumped on the Toraiz Squid and while I'm still in the honeymoon phase I really love it and with a couple of small tweaks I'd be even more over the moon.

That said the combination of the Squid and Digitakt are great for my "electronic" projects, but I'd still love to find something that works better for more traditional song based composition. I suspect computers are better for this, but for some reason the software sequencers I've tried just completely befuddle me and just aren't fun.

I often wonder if I should just get one of the old HW sequencers from Yamaha, or Roland and then record the output of my current setup into it to give me the one linear track I really want.
I didn't ever vibe with the Pyramid. I think its a type 3 mostly though as previously stated, most modern devices offer all 3 types of functionality to a greater or lesser degree. To me the flaw in the Digitakt (and all 'tronz except the OT) is that its step based and limited to 64 - adding clock division i.e. steps can be 64th notes or whole notes or whatever in between makes this limitation much less aparent. This type uses the step paradigm and live recordings place each note on a specific step with a time offset to preserve the performance. What you say about wanting 1 linear track exposes the weakness of these step limits. Beware - recording from one sequencer to another is subject to offsets via latency.

If your performance is not quantized it will likely be a little late overall which means downbeats and bar-lines are not aligned - this can suck. If I was recording the midi output of sequencers as a long liner performance I'd use a computer at least so I could capture and edit with a screen and a mouse. Many sequencers will allow you to transfer a standard midi file from the computer via USB tho this starts to become a kinda insane workflow.

For the computer I use Logic and it doesn't seem horribly convoluted but that may be familiarity - on the other hand, it has a very strong and long lineage as a well developed and sophisticated sequencer. Remember that midi out of the computer is highly suspect - it can work though many of us use specialized hw/sw combos (USAMO) to make sure its solid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by string6theory View Post
Great stuff and helpful Shred, thanks! I need to think more about this, cause it’s making a lot of sense.

Coming from FXPansion’s BFD since v1 now v3 with PT has been my go to setup for years. But, more using MIDI performance files, like those from Chad Wakermam, Andy Johns, etc, etc. I also used to use Acid, back in the day, so dig drum loops too. But, less so these days. I do love to do loop recording though, and have several loopers.

I love and much prefer acoustic drums, ala John Bohnam to Stewart Copeland to Terry Bozio, etc., funky beats, reggae, also thick and heavy hip hop style “enhanced” beats, to whatever sounds rhythmically or transiently inspiring. I’ve always much preferred to play and record all the other instruments “live” after the beat or groove is established (which is sometimes just a click in order to record ideas quickly, then the drums added later).

But, I want to get more away from the MIDI drum performance files to making more of my own beats with both pads (MPC-X) and keys, like the Komplete Kontrol. Gravitating toward pads though. I’d like to keep utilizing the awesome BFD kits I have on a 1TB SSD but triggered with the X, some sampled and enhanced, combined with other samples, etc. And, of course new sampled beats. This would be your #2 Drums.

On the other hand, I’m also re-discovering I dig sequenced synths (beyond live playing)... probably first appreciated when I first watched Midnight Express with that Moroder soundtrack... or the Terminator style soundtrack sequencing... and <gasp> even the chugging synth sequence in Charriots, or Conquest, The Bounty... ya know, Maestro V’s stuff... The Thing, Escape From... John Carpenter’s stuff... etc.

It’s the above style sequencing I’d like to get a real good handle on (which I believe is your “#3 Pattern”. Those kind of sequenced electronic instruments that have that something-something that just sounds very cool. Combination of rhythmic transients, timbres, tones, melodies, harmonies and preferably some kind of pocket groove. So, of course, the sequencers on all my synths will continue to be utilized. I’ll have 8 synth sequencers, plus an SQ-1.

Then, secondarily, get more into sequencing atmospherics or other non-rhythmic arrangements (also Pattern). Perhaps things I would have normally played live, but may be better arranged when timed with LFO’s and modulations all clocked to the rhythm. But, I would still lean towards playing these elements live or recorded into a sequencer (then modulated) as opposed to step entry or piano roll note entry (although I do sometimes modify and make beats in BFD in its piano roll, that’s been mostly the extent of it).

#1 Step entry is newer to me, but can and has yielded some interesting results. But, this style of sequencing would probably be more occasional I would think. But, who knows.
Sounds to me that you need a classic drum machine - possibly my prejudice since I am a classic MPC freak. One real advantage especially if you're fussy about accuracy, is the multiple outputs allowing midi data to not fight for priority on a single cable. I like this for you based on what you say because you can create more organic beats with the pads (called 'drum tracks' in an MPC) and then record freely on top (midi tracks) without concern for an imposed grid. You say you love acoustic drums - perfect: Samples of drums in the MPC responding to velocity via the pads in pretty organic. Since you have sequencers on several of your instruments already, you just need a hub / brain that is rock solid and sequences comfortably in the style you like which seems to be best achieved through pads with samples.

I'd go with an MPC3000 if I was being snobby (expensive, limited, great sound and accuracy), an MPC-X if I was being smart (does it all, expensive, unknown accuracy), or an MPC 1000/2500 if I was on a budget (less expensive, less great sound, less accurate, has step sequencing with JJOS). An MPC is primarily a number 2 with a number 3 second and in some cases a number 1 added on.

It is not that MPCs are the best (tho they may be) but more because its what I know. The fundamental concept of the design is 'make sampled drum sequences with the pads, then add freely played layers on top with external instruments' - all sequence data living in the MPC - the master blaster. In short: I'd be looking for something with good pads for playing drums, and several outs to be the hub of the setup - MPCs are not the only choice but the established leader. I hope this helps.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #392
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trick fall's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demure View Post
Oddly enough I've always kept a Novation Circuit beside it which is nice for quick drum patterns, which I then record into the MPC.
I've never understood why Novation haven't come out with a Circuit sequencer with more tracks and MIDI outs. The sequencer on the circuit is one of my faves.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #393
Gear Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by trick fall View Post
I've never understood why Novation haven't come out with a Circuit sequencer with more tracks and MIDI outs. The sequencer on the circuit is one of my faves.
The Circuit community have been asking for a "Circuit Pro" for years. It would sell like hot cakes.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #394
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The Shred Dog said a lot of good stuff, but one thing that stuck out to me and is worth mentioning is the grid alignment on downbeats. One thing I learned is the ultimate goal needs to be preserving the feel of the sequence you created, ie - eliminate jitter.

I say this because due to latency (not jitter), when/if you do record into a DAW, you will probably see that the downbeat is a little off the grid. It will vary based on the device, but usually its a small amount - like 5-6ms. Personally, I don’t worry about it. One reason why is because if you chase perfect grid alignment and set up all these different innings for each device, it usually will not always be the same each session. There are goblins and other things that can leave you constantly chasing your tail.

The #1 thing is that it sounds nice and tight and how you heard it when making the song in the sequencer. Once you get it in, get all the punches done first and then if you want, you can batch grab all the WAVs and nudge them back so everything is lined up.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #395
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shreddoggie's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Methlab View Post
The Shred Dog said a lot of good stuff, but one thing that stuck out to me and is worth mentioning is the grid alignment on downbeats. One thing I learned is the ultimate goal needs to be preserving the feel of the sequence you created, ie - eliminate jitter.

I say this because due to latency (not jitter), when/if you do record into a DAW, you will probably see that the downbeat is a little off the grid. It will vary based on the device, but usually its a small amount - like 5-6ms. Personally, I don’t worry about it. One reason why is because if you chase perfect grid alignment and set up all these different innings for each device, it usually will not always be the same each session. There are goblins and other things that can leave you constantly chasing your tail.

The #1 thing is that it sounds nice and tight and how you heard it when making the song in the sequencer. Once you get it in, get all the punches done first and then if you want, you can batch grab all the WAVs and nudge them back so everything is lined up.
YES - you are fully grokking what I was getting at. It is fine if your downbeats do not align with the barlines on the grid - provided that you don't need them for some reason. If you are syncing it with something else that has no offset adjustment, it will be late. If your sequence is quantized you can simply re-quantize the newly recorded sequence and this will remove the offset, BUT, if your sequence is freeform you are hosed. This is why doing it on a computer is so much better - you select all and drag the sequence into position.

This is all latency based inaccuracy and how it is a PITA for your work or somehow ruins the vibe. Jitter based problems are more-or-less unsolvable and this is yet another reason to be reverent to rock solid clocks and sample accurate sync. What you say about offsets is also 100% on the money - they vary from take to take. Chasing the perfect compensation (in my experience) is a fools errand especially since you have audio record buffer / latency issues also - its just not worth the effort, it will never be fixed properly. Much better to accept that its there and remove the offset manually at the appropriate time.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #396
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Moonwhistle's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Methlab View Post
One thing I learned is the ultimate goal needs to be preserving the feel of the sequence you created, ie - eliminate jitter.
Yep.

No way to fix jitter. That said, there are a lot of people simply sending out midi from their DAW to synths that would never even notice the jitter if it wasn't pointed out to them.

It's great to know what close to perfect timing is and how it can be achieved but it's not a necessity and less than perfect timing shouldn't get in the way of making music. eg. an MPC2500 or MIDI piped out of a DAW via USB is still good enough for most (average jitter under 1ms.)

A lot of MPC users don't even notice when jitter goes through the roof with JJOS.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #397
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grasspike's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by trick fall View Post

That said the combination of the Squid and Digitakt are great for my "electronic" projects, but I'd still love to find something that works better for more traditional song based composition. I suspect computers are better for this, but for some reason the software sequencers I've tried just completely befuddle me and just aren't fun.
I have a Pyramid, but I also enjoy using the sequencer on my Korg Microarranger, for more traditional song based composition.

The Microarranger has 2 different types of sequencers. The first is for creating the dreaded "styles". This can actually be cool in a way

The other is a very easy to use yet powerful 16 track sequencer designed for writing songs.

The cool thing is that at the heart of the Microarranger is the complete ROM set, presets and engine from the Triton. This along with the built in speakers and keyboard gives you an all in one song writing tool

It saves everything as a Midifile to SD cards and can use it's MIDI out to sequence other gear
Old 2 weeks ago
  #398
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grasspike View Post
I have a Pyramid, but I also enjoy using the sequencer on my Korg Microarranger, for more traditional song based composition.

The Microarranger has 2 different types of sequencers. The first is for creating the dreaded "styles". This can actually be cool in a way

The other is a very easy to use yet powerful 16 track sequencer designed for writing songs.

The cool thing is that at the heart of the Microarranger is the complete ROM set, presets and engine from the Triton. This along with the built in speakers and keyboard gives you an all in one song writing tool

It saves everything as a Midifile to SD cards and can use it's MIDI out to sequence other gear
Not sure what you mean by “dreaded styles”.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #399
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string6theory's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acid Mitch View Post
Correctamundo. You missed something and are confused.
Acid Pro is the version you buy. Acid Pro 365 is the version you rent.
Thank you, I’m glad I was wrong! I’m gonna have to give it a more thorough tour. Having Acid ported to the MAC is fantastic.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #400
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trick fall's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by grasspike View Post
I have a Pyramid, but I also enjoy using the sequencer on my Korg Microarranger, for more traditional song based composition.

The Microarranger has 2 different types of sequencers. The first is for creating the dreaded "styles". This can actually be cool in a way

The other is a very easy to use yet powerful 16 track sequencer designed for writing songs.

The cool thing is that at the heart of the Microarranger is the complete ROM set, presets and engine from the Triton. This along with the built in speakers and keyboard gives you an all in one song writing tool

It saves everything as a Midifile to SD cards and can use it's MIDI out to sequence other gear
Thanks I've often thought about getting something like the micro arranger for this. This thread though has gotten me thinking about my workflows and some alternative things to try.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #401
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string6theory's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by shreddoggie View Post
...


Sounds to me that you need a classic drum machine - possibly my prejudice since I am a classic MPC freak. One real advantage especially if you're fussy about accuracy, is the multiple outputs allowing midi data to not fight for priority on a single cable. I like this for you based on what you say because you can create more organic beats with the pads (called 'drum tracks' in an MPC) and then record freely on top (midi tracks) without concern for an imposed grid. You say you love acoustic drums - perfect: Samples of drums in the MPC responding to velocity via the pads in pretty organic. Since you have sequencers on several of your instruments already, you just need a hub / brain that is rock solid and sequences comfortably in the style you like which seems to be best achieved through pads with samples.

I'd go with an MPC3000 if I was being snobby (expensive, limited, great sound and accuracy), an MPC-X if I was being smart (does it all, expensive, unknown accuracy), or an MPC 1000/2500 if I was on a budget (less expensive, less great sound, less accurate, has step sequencing with JJOS). An MPC is primarily a number 2 with a number 3 second and in some cases a number 1 added on.

It is not that MPCs are the best (tho they may be) but more because its what I know. The fundamental concept of the design is 'make sampled drum sequences with the pads, then add freely played layers on top with external instruments' - all sequence data living in the MPC - the master blaster. In short: I'd be looking for something with good pads for playing drums, and several outs to be the hub of the setup - MPCs are not the only choice but the established leader. I hope this helps.
This is exactly why I got the MPC-X. Thanks for re-affirming, based on these ways of working with sequencers and synths. I’m just getting started with it reallly, having been focused on getting my whole setup together, new studio space, and trying to find time between painful periods, where all I can do is look at my stuff.

The idea is to make it my main beat-making, drum-tracking, perhaps looping, and sequencing hub, just as you say. I’m still wrapping my head around the best way to integrate it, connect up CV, audio and MIDI cables with my synths, etc. Everything needs to be ergonomic and setup in a fixed spot, and the MPC-X is next to my mix position chair, which is away from the synth circle on the other end of the room. It will be hooked directly up to a Toft ATB-4 mixer, with it’s own I/O, then into an API rack mixer with transformer balanced busses and auxes, with rack FX on the auxes, to an Ensemble TB. So, also lots of logistical considerations. And many of the synths have there own CV and external input patchbays.

I’m going to have 2 to 3 UM-880’s (plus computer USB2/3 Hubs), 2 StudioPatch 96-TT patchbays, API rack mixers connected to multiple rack effects, then into PT HD via Orion 32 HD all racked up around my main synth desk, which is the hub of the synth circle, where The River will be, and MatrixBrute in a slide out try.

But, I was still thinking about having a stand-alone sequencer or two to sequence-control my synths that don’t have there own sequencers, and positioned close to them... like the Mini D, Voyager 1+1, Slim, Minitaur, MS-20M or Odyssey FS. My new Hammond A3 (XK-5) also sends and responds to MIDI. There will many occasions where I won’t want to use the X at all.

These stand-alone sequencers would then be locked to the MPC or PT or internal or another sync box like the Roland. But, all this kind of connectivity and flow is new to me, so it’s definitely a learning experience. Thanks for your insights!
Old 2 weeks ago
  #402
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trick fall's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by shreddoggie View Post

I didn't ever vibe with the Pyramid. I think its a type 3 mostly though as previously stated, most modern devices offer all 3 types of functionality to a greater or lesser degree. To me the flaw in the Digitakt (and all 'tronz except the OT) is that its step based and limited to 64 - adding clock division i.e. steps can be 64th notes or whole notes or whatever in between makes this limitation much less aparent. This type uses the step paradigm and live recordings place each note on a specific step with a time offset to preserve the performance. What you say about wanting 1 linear track exposes the weakness of these step limits. Beware - recording from one sequencer to another is subject to offsets via latency.

If your performance is not quantized it will likely be a little late overall which means downbeats and bar-lines are not aligned - this can suck. If I was recording the midi output of sequencers as a long liner performance I'd use a computer at least so I could capture and edit with a screen and a mouse. Many sequencers will allow you to transfer a standard midi file from the computer via USB tho this starts to become a kinda insane workflow.

For the computer I use Logic and it doesn't seem horribly convoluted but that may be familiarity - on the other hand, it has a very strong and long lineage as a well developed and sophisticated sequencer. Remember that midi out of the computer is highly suspect - it can work though many of us use specialized hw/sw combos (USAMO) to make sure its solid.


The 64 step limitation is highly annoying, but can also be somewhat alleviated with pattern chaining. It's not ideal, but it is a workaround. For my electronic music I think I'm ultimately better off learning how to edit the audio. I'm usually recording a performance and there's a couple of things I just want to clean up. The sequencers are synched to each other and the DAW and for me the timing is tight enough.

I'm thinking for my guitar based stuff, which is where the real need for a linear approach comes in, of just recording to a click and then playing sequenced patterns live to that. i'm lucky enough to have a band so those recording are really just for demos and experimenting anyway. I'll never be able to program drums as well as my drummer can play them and it's a hell of a lot less tedious too.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #403
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grasspike's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by gravyface View Post
Not sure what you mean by “dreaded styles”.
Arranger keyboards have one man band styles that many people find quite cheesey. You play a single note or chord and the instrument will build a complete 16 part track around it complete with drums. They have all kinds of styles even things like Polka.

At it's core however these are just MIDI loops that will automatically transpose to what ever you want
Old 2 weeks ago
  #404
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grasspike's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by trick fall View Post
Thanks I've often thought about getting something like the micro arranger for this. This thread though has gotten me thinking about my workflows and some alternative things to try.
You are quite welcome. I find it a great compliment to my Pyramid.

The beauty of the 16 track sequencer in the Microarranger is it's simplicity to use. You can play notes on the keyboard, or just use the screen and buttons.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #405
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trick fall's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by grasspike View Post
You are quite welcome. I find it a great compliment to my Pyramid.

The beauty of the 16 track sequencer in the Microarranger is it's simplicity to use. You can play notes on the keyboard, or just use the screen and buttons.
I didn't realize how inexpensive they are. Probably worth it just for the sequencer.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #406
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Z View Post
The Circuit community have been asking for a "Circuit Pro" for years. It would sell like hot cakes.
The new sl mkiii keyboards are basically a circuit pro sequencer. It’s just in the form of a keyboard. Unfortunately the Keybed is sort of crappy compared to the mkii.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #407
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gravyface View Post
Not sure what you mean by “dreaded styles”.
Music favoured by people with dreadlocks, of course.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #408
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vertflyer View Post
The new sl mkiii keyboards are basically a circuit pro sequencer. It’s just in the form of a keyboard. Unfortunately the Keybed is sort of crappy compared to the mkii.
How come no one's talking about this keyboard at all?

I for a long time have thought: "man it would be so great to have a a centerpiece MIDI controller with a full-fledged sequencer built in."

While not quite a centerpiece at 8 tracks, this is a step in the right direction.

I'm waffling on selling my REV2 and getting just desktop modules, because they're so much more convenient to swapping in and out.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #409
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grasspike View Post
I have a Pyramid, but I also enjoy using the sequencer on my Korg Microarranger, for more traditional song based composition.

The Microarranger has 2 different types of sequencers. The first is for creating the dreaded "styles". This can actually be cool in a way

The other is a very easy to use yet powerful 16 track sequencer designed for writing songs.

The cool thing is that at the heart of the Microarranger is the complete ROM set, presets and engine from the Triton. This along with the built in speakers and keyboard gives you an all in one song writing tool

It saves everything as a Midifile to SD cards and can use it's MIDI out to sequence other gear
The Microarranger looks interesting indeed... Can you edit the sounds as you can on the Triton?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #410
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Demure's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by trick fall View Post
I've never understood why Novation haven't come out with a Circuit sequencer with more tracks and MIDI outs. The sequencer on the circuit is one of my faves.
Same, very easy to work with and very intuitive. Hooking it up to the MPC allows me to transfer whatever's on the Circuit to the MPC, emptying the Circuit for the next track. No need for a Circuit Pro. I wonder if they thought the Mono Station would sell as well as the original Circuit and this put them off or something..
Old 2 weeks ago
  #411
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trick fall's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demure View Post
Same, very easy to work with and very intuitive. Hooking it up to the MPC allows me to transfer whatever's on the Circuit to the MPC, emptying the Circuit for the next track. No need for a Circuit Pro. I wonder if they thought the Mono Station would sell as well as the original Circuit and this put them off or something..

You might want to check out the Squid. It comes close to what I wanted in a Circuit Pro. The two things I'd prefer from the Circuit though are pattern chaining and I prefer the step entry method on the Circuit. I think it's brilliant how the circuit has the steps on the bottom and the notes on top if you know what I mean.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #412
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grasspike's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perplexo View Post
The Microarranger looks interesting indeed... Can you edit the sounds as you can on the Triton?
Yes you can, with a bit of menu diving to get to the editor. There are a decent amount of buttons and a decent screen so once there it's actually pretty easy.

I am unaware of any external editors
Old 2 weeks ago
  #413
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grasspike View Post
Yes you can, with a bit of menu diving to get to the editor. There are a decent amount of buttons and a decent screen so once there it's actually pretty easy.

I am unaware of any external editors
Wow, then this is quite the product, it seems. I think I may pick it up. Does it have any built in chord functionality? What about arpeggiator?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #414
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grasspike's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perplexo View Post
Wow, then this is quite the product, it seems. I think I may pick it up. Does it have any built in chord functionality? What about arpeggiator?
There is unfortunately no arpeggiator. However the chord functionality is amazing.

The "song sequencer" has the ability to enter chords with the keyboard by playing it, by pressing a single key, or by skipping the keyboard entirely and using the many buttons and screen.

You can also build your song measure by measure like a step sequencer if you want.

The whole system is very deep and powerful yet easy to use, no matter your skill with playing piano/keys

It's also quite easy to go back and edit, make changes, or add things to what you have already done
Old 2 weeks ago
  #415
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grasspike View Post
There is unfortunately no arpeggiator. However the chord functionality is amazing.

The "song sequencer" has the ability to enter chords with the keyboard by playing it, by pressing a single key, or by skipping the keyboard entirely and using the many buttons and screen.

You can also build your song measure by measure like a step sequencer if you want.

The whole system is very deep and powerful yet easy to use, no matter your skill with playing piano/keys

It's also quite easy to go back and edit, make changes, or add things to what you have already done
Songs like a great system! I'm gonna look for one second hand, as they seem to be taken off the market. Thanks for the info!

Edit: oh yeah, one more thing - is it possible to build up your song pattern by pattern and then chaining these together to make a song? Is that what you mean about measures?
Old 1 week ago
  #416
Gear Nut
midibox seq v4 is on its way, so I will report back my findings. i know that people really like them but they are not super common.
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