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Analog drun machine- Tempest? Somthing else I should look at?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HSi View Post
... everyone knows full well there is no drum machine, that purely generates percussive sound (the defention of a drum Machine), that come close to a tempest in software
why are you confusing "drum machine" with "drum synth"?

Quote:
tremor and stix(which I beta tested and was going to submit presets for, but never mind eh) are the best we have. ... If there is, post me a link, I would love to have it.
i'm not sure how many years back it was, or what "proved it" (Autechre, Basic Channel/Chain Reaction, Nord Modular?), but at some point i realized that there is no reason to go looking for any sort of all-in-one drum synth/machine in software (or hardware for that matter).

anything can be a drum source, a DX-7 clone can be my drum machine. you can mix and match instruments from Tremor, Stix, Reaktor Blocks, whatever you want. each channel in Ableton or Maschine can be whatever i'd like it to be, i don't need to think in terms of "Stix is my drum synth/machine", or be disappointed in its shortcomings.

also, not every percussion element needs to be generated in real-time. get something going, set it up to be tweaked with knobs in Maschine or whatever, go nuts and record it. doesn't matter what the source was, it's just another part of the track.

so much out-dated thinking for a bunch of electronic musicians, "drum machines" are a dead end. yeah, must have been with the Nord G2. i remember thinking "why would i ever want to be stuck thinking in terms of one or four bar patterns?"
Old 4 weeks ago
  #92
HSi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuonacc View Post
oh, like running a couple of software drum synths (Reaktor, Microtonic, whatever) together, or what? not really seeing anything "unique" about a couple drum machines (that don't even have any realtime control features, so let's not get into that) sync'd together.

why do you guys pose these weak arguments?
Look, I come here to help and learn, not to argue. No idea on those maschines he linked. But tell me what Reaktor drum ensembles are better than a tempest and I'll download them now.

If someone made a 1/1 sounding version in Reaktor I'd pay £300 now.

I can't help feeling this has just turned into a hardware vs software thread, but still no one seems to be able to link something better than the tempest in software...

I think you know I use maschine+jam, and I love it, but thats £700 oh hardware/software + £200~ for Reaktor + £700 for Mac mini + £300 for tv +£150 for keyboard and mouse and still the best drum synth we can load is probably niji drums.

I actually did a course by Micheal Hetrik from Unfiltered Audio on how to rebuild components from electrical diagrams in Reaktor and rebuilt some of the 808 modules, most of them are actually very simple, but as I think we all know, theres a bit more to it than that.

You've have to be crazy to argue that a pure hardware set up was objectively better than a hybrid set up. Of course we can build or sample anything, but it has to be done for use to use it otherwise its just theoretical.

Someone DM me when Wave Alchemy realease a "Silent Drums" pack I know theres some absynth hats and bits in some of them, or maybe that was goldbaby, unsure.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #93
HSi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuonacc View Post
why are you confusing "drum machine" with "drum synth"?
Is this a serious point? A drum machine is a bit of hardware that creates percussive sounds via synthesis, when you get down to this level it just shows you have no argument really

Quote:

i'm not sure how many years back it was, or what "proved it" (Autechre, Basic Channel/Chain Reaction, Nord Modular?), but at some point i realized that there is no reason to go looking for any sort of all-in-one drum synth/machine in software (or hardware for that matter).

anything can be a drum source, a DX-7 clone can be my drum machine. you can mix and match instruments from Tremor, Stix, Reaktor Blocks, whatever you want. each channel in Ableton or Maschine can be whatever i'd like it to be, i don't need to think in terms of "Stix is my drum synth/machine", or be disappointed in its shortcomings.

also, not every percussion element needs to be generated in real-time. get something going, set it up to be tweaked with knobs in Maschine or whatever, go nuts and record it. doesn't matter what the source was, it's just another part of the track.

so much out-dated thinking for a bunch of electronic musicians, "drum machines" are a dead end. yeah, must have been with the Nord G2. i remember thinking "why would i ever want to be stuck thinking in terms of one or four bar patterns?"
Yes, lovely. But show me a soft drum synth.machine that sounds as good as a tempest because you're arguing against points I haven't made, again.

You can use an iPhone to record pots and pans, but that has nothing to do with the fact that in terms of drum machines the hardware ones offer more, you can resample and alter the hardware samples so talking of that as an advantage is just pointless.

Bizarre straw man arguments over and over and over.

Show....me.....a drum machine in software, that sounds better than a tempest, sampler manipulation can be done to either or is it just doesn't come into it.....bizzare that anyway would think anything other.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #94
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I'm not sure why there should be a fight between sf and hw (besides it's GS ). They can also compliment each other nicely.

Following a friend's config. example + advices, I can now control my Simmons SDS 800 + Jomox m.brane + R8 and, last week, even ... a very old Akai sampler with my Xils-Lab StiX sw 'analog modelled' drum machine Sequencer ( it has p.lock parameters similar to Elektron devices and an XoX sequencer that TRxxx could only have dreamed of in the ancient times).

If the hw drum machine has a sequencer, I can also prefer to -midi only atm- sync it to my daw-. In other words : I have all options wide open.

Itb is nice, otb is nice, hybrid is also nice. It's only really about one's personnal likes/dislikes.

To OP : for analog hw drum machines, you might want to check the Vermona Drm MK II/III, or MFB units (including the old ones). More affordable than a Tempest, also more limited in term of sound shaping possibilities, have their own character, and a 'nice' sound (well, depending on your taste)
Old 4 weeks ago
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HSi View Post
Is this a serious point? A drum machine is a bit of hardware that creates percussive sounds via synthesis, when you get down to this level it just shows you have no argument really
you've got to be joking. how many drum machines are simply sample playback with a sequencer attached? an MPC is no different than most drum machines (now i see how that argument got going). in fact, most (70%?) drum machines over the past 40 years don't really offer much in the way of drum "synthesis" at all.

can i get your dealer's number? that stuff must be awesome.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #96
HSi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LotuZia View Post

Itb is nice, otb is nice, hybrid is also nice. It's only really about one's personal likes/dislikes.
Hybrid is the best, how can it not be? You guys appear like wizards when your products are mentioned. I just wish more people would make stuff like Stix and Tremor because they're such a big step in the right direction. I also wish they would release them as single strips with sequencers so they could be use in machine in a better way.....

All I said, when it comes to drum machines (generators) you're going to find better stuff in hardware, but then everyone told me about soft samplers as if hardware wouldn't be sampled anyway.
____________


I think I've made my point now lads. Kinda pointless and a waste of energy and time now. I wish you all the best with microtonic vs a dsi tempest or analog rythm
Old 4 weeks ago
  #97
HSi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuonacc View Post
you've got to be joking. how many drum machines are simply sample playback with a sequencer attached? an MPC is no different than most drum machines (now i see how that argument got going). in fact, most (70%?) drum machines over the past 40 years don't really offer much in the way of drum "synthesis" at all.

can i get your dealer's number? that stuff must be awesome.
Again, you are trying to impose your own context on me. I'm talking about tempests, rytms etc etc. Why would we be talking about 40 year old sampled vintage drum machines on a thread where the context was a tempest?

READ the title, Analog Drum machines, context....

All you're doing is changing the goalposts, strawmanning and hurling the odd insult, you should open a twitter account, you would love it there.....

I'm happy for you that you feel you have the time to waste on this. I'll leave you to it now, because I don't. You can tell all your friends you won an argument on the internet if you like, I'll even send you a certificate.

Old 4 weeks ago
  #98
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zerocrossing's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by badmark View Post
2 hardware drum machines, sorted. Software's all well and good but it's never going to get you close to e.g. actually running a Korg S-3 and a Roland DR-5 together, should you choose to be so unwise.
Right, but it’s wrong to assume that everyone wants an S-3 or DR-5, or really any other hardware drum machine. I spent years with drum machines/groove boxes and workstation keyboards and they all served me well, but the moment that I started really digging into a modern DAW and using it like a performance instrument (First Live, now Bitwig) is the day I got rid of all those instruments and I honestly never looked back. For me, the best solution is a good DAW and Maschine.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #99
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draig's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by HSi View Post
This is just entirely a waste of energy everyone knows full well there is no drum machine, that purely generates percussive sound( the defention of a drum Machine), that come close to a tempest in software, tremor
I quite liked Tremor. But the CPU use made it too hard to use.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #100
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TornadoTed's Avatar
The Nord Drum 3 is a great sounding machine and has some deep sound design options if you don't mind that it is missing a sequencer. Paired with a Beststep Pro would sort that though.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HSi View Post
Again, you are trying to impose your own context on me. I'm talking about tempests, rytms etc etc. Why would we be talking about 40 year old sampled vintage drum machines on a thread where the context was a tempest?

READ the title, Analog Drum machines, context...
sorry, i'm just talking points that you guys were already arguing about. you're right though, somehow this devolved into talking about drum machines in general instead of just "analog drum machines".

Quote:
Originally Posted by HSi View Post
... show me a soft drum synth.machine that sounds as good as a tempest because you're arguing against points I haven't made, again.
as good as this?



uhh... pretty much any softsynth? wtf? give me a few instances of Repro-1, or whatever. there's nothing special going on with the Tempest, and you're not going to get any TR level synthesis/sounds out of it either way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HSi View Post
... and still the best drum synth we can load is probably niji drums.
this says quite a lot right here. Niji Drums? really?

what a waste of time. you could at least try.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markodarko View Post
Well sir, look no further for you are in luck! I’m selling my Analog Rytm MKII! Tada!

It’s collection only from the Aylesbury area of the UK but you’re welcome to stay with us to save on hotel costs.
How I would absolutely love to visit Merrie Olde England one day.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #103
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draig's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by HSi View Post
But tell me what Reaktor drum ensembles are better than a tempest and I'll download them now.

If someone made a 1/1 sounding version in Reaktor I'd pay £300 now.
I'd never pay for it. Reaktor uses too much cpu (for the good sounding stuff). Hell, 1 single voice of Reaktor Blocks can max a single core.

I have no problem using software. I intend to keep using it and am not against it, but I also see its limitations. I started buying some hardware because it offers 'free' voices. I can turn on the Rytm and use it to its maximum capability and I don't have to give a thought to cpu use, it never glitches, sounds amazing, feels latency free and is an enjoyable and immediate tactile experience.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by draig View Post
... I have no problem using software. I intend to keep using it and am not against it, but I also see its limitations. I started buying some hardware because it offers 'free' voices. I can turn on the Rytm and use it to its maximum capability and I don't have to give a thought to cpu use, it never glitches, sounds amazing, feels latency free and is an enjoyable and immediate tactile experience.
i'd say the same about the TR-8S, which is generally a joy to use. however, i can plainly admit to its limitations and the fact that it's really not giving me much of any advantage to using software and a good controller setup. i'm not going to sit here and make it sound like it'll change someone's life in ways that software can't. i'd rather look at what it does well and see how one might replicate that workflow ITB, while taking advantage of everything else that it offers. i'd certainly rather use Maschine than the TR-8S (or any hardware drum machine) if i had to choose.

as far as insane CPU usage, glitches, latency... these are not something i'm experiencing.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thebigcomedown View Post
The thing is Mr. Thinker, is that a RYTM is a complete solution for production and performance. It’s an instrument. A computer is not. This is what makes the RYTM so great and the laptop sitting in front of me less great.

Maybe some software can do things, yes. But I have to buy a crapload of hardware to get at it in a meaningful way? It’s becoming more and more like a cobbled together RYTM.

And that’s the point. The RYTM can be “played” as-is. It’s an instrument, like a guitar.
Also, there is no midi controller that can make software like Geist as immediate and hands on as the Rytm...
Old 4 weeks ago
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TornadoTed View Post
The Nord Drum 3 is a great sounding machine and has some deep sound design options if you don't mind that it is missing a sequencer. Paired with a Beststep Pro would sort that though.
There was a time when I convinced myself that I needed a hardware drum solution, and at the time, the Nord Drum 2 ended up being part of it. Sounded great... not much fun to program. Maybe the 3 is better? My rig was the ND2 and JoMoX M_brane 1.1 and it really sounded amazing, but it ended up feeling too clumsy to use.

I think if I had to go hardware drum machine today, I would probably go with the new JoMoX and supplement it with a Tempest. I guess I just don’t care that much. I’m definitely not the kind of guy who plays a drum machine or groove box, or what ever, like an “instrument.” I set up a kit (set of sounds) and then I just use step sequencing to get a “metronome” set up and then switch to live event recording to live improvise a composition. I don’t modulate settings in real time, because I’m trying to fill audio buffers full of live performances of guitar and synths. I’m sure I’d have the same thing to say about someone who said, “just use guitar samples or a virtual physical modeling guitar plugin.” That’s why I say, if you want to use a drum machine, or groove box, or software versions of anything, just do it. No need to cut anyone down for the decisions they make.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #107
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Acid Mitch's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LotuZia View Post

If the hw drum machine has a sequencer, )
All drum machines have a sequencer. Otherwise it’s a drum module or drum synth.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #108
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I would like to thank Quantum7 for starting this thread. The early replies to his original question led me to more research into some suggestions which ended up in a DRM1 mk III being delivered here. Definitely reminds me somewhat of being back in the day owning the Simmons SDS V and 7 and the TAMA Techstar modules.

Driving the DRM1 with a step sequencer and tweaking the controls has resulted in a lot of cool/interesting/fun sounding drum patterns that would have been difficult to achieve any other way.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #109
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draig's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing View Post
I’m trying to fill audio buffers full of live performances of guitar and synths. I’m sure I’d have the same thing to say about someone who said, “just use guitar samples or a virtual physical modeling guitar plugin.”
Exactly... there is nothing controversial about saying a guitar offers something software doesn't... same with the Rytm. And saying that is not a claim that there is one way to do things or that one way is objectively superior or that someone is wrong for doing it differently.

It's ridiculous one has to put a set of disclaimers in every post to dissuade the posters who police peoples words and relentlessly look for flaws in how people express themselves so they can attack them.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuonacc View Post
why are you confusing "drum machine" with "drum synth"?



i'm not sure how many years back it was, or what "proved it" (Autechre, Basic Channel/Chain Reaction, Nord Modular?), but at some point i realized that there is no reason to go looking for any sort of all-in-one drum synth/machine in software (or hardware for that matter).

anything can be a drum source, a DX-7 clone can be my drum machine. you can mix and match instruments from Tremor, Stix, Reaktor Blocks, whatever you want. each channel in Ableton or Maschine can be whatever i'd like it to be, i don't need to think in terms of "Stix is my drum synth/machine", or be disappointed in its shortcomings.

also, not every percussion element needs to be generated in real-time. get something going, set it up to be tweaked with knobs in Maschine or whatever, go nuts and record it. doesn't matter what the source was, it's just another part of the track.

so much out-dated thinking for a bunch of electronic musicians, "drum machines" are a dead end. yeah, must have been with the Nord G2. i remember thinking "why would i ever want to be stuck thinking in terms of one or four bar patterns?"
I’m totally in agreement of all of that. Not to cut down Tremor or StiX (I own Tremor, not StiX) but they are not the “best we have” at the moment. They’re just some tools that you either like or do not like. I’ve been using µTonic now for years and years... I love it. Does it sound like a vintage x0x box? In some ways, yeah, in other ways, not at all. Hell, someone built a hardware drum synth with it’s engine! Is that better? Now, if all I cared about was the exact sound of an 808, I’d be screwed, but I don’t care about that. Don’t get me wrong, I love that too, but a sample will do just fine, and I can get one that’s been meticulously recorded threw expensive outboard onto a vintage tape deck that’s being subtly over driven. I can’t do that with just a “drum machine,” even if it is an OG 808. If I do want a more authentic 808 sound, I’ll use the Roland Cloud plugin, as it sounds exactly the same to me. I’m sure there are differences, but none that effect my enjoyment of it.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing View Post
There was a time when I convinced myself that I needed a hardware drum solution, and at the time, the Nord Drum 2 ended up being part of it. Sounded great... not much fun to program. Maybe the 3 is better? ....
Synthesis engine is strictly identical. With ND3, you have some additional effects (not my type of reverb etc but they are here), and the drumpads become obligatory. The price therefore increased. Maybe not the wisest road to take for Clavia, but ND2 is discontinued so ... :shrug:
Old 4 weeks ago
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LotuZia View Post
Synthesis engine is strictly identical. With ND3, you have some additional effects (not my type of reverb etc but they are here), and the drumpads become obligatory. The price therefore increased. Maybe not the wisest road to take for Clavia, but ND2 is discontinued so ... :shrug:
I spent a long time a/b testing the ND2 along various software solutions and I found no real compelling reason to keep it, but if I were gigging live it might make sense, especially if I were a drummer who wanted to extend an acoustic kit with some electronic sounds.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing View Post
Right, but it’s wrong to assume that everyone wants an S-3 or DR-5, or really any other hardware drum machine. I spent years with drum machines/groove boxes and workstation keyboards and they all served me well, but the moment that I started really digging into a modern DAW and using it like a performance instrument (First Live, now Bitwig) is the day I got rid of all those instruments and I honestly never looked back. For me, the best solution is a good DAW and Maschine.
Not for me lol, I'm moderately colourblind and loads of multicoloured pads give me the conniptions! I might not have hated the Octatrack so much had I been able to tell the difference in status of its lights.

Since we've established the line between analog drum machines and analog synths is a fine one the Korg Monologue has to be up there as a kind of 909 on acid. There are some Aphex Twin presets that show what it can do.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badmark View Post
Not for me lol, I'm moderately colourblind and loads of multicoloured pads give me the conniptions! I might not have hated the Octatrack so much had I been able to tell the difference in status of its lights.

Since we've established the line between analog drum machines and analog synths is a fine one the Korg Monologue has to be up there as a kind of 909 on acid. There are some Aphex Twin presets that show what it can do.
I’ve got the MK1, so no multi color pads.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing View Post
I’ve got the MK1, so no multi color pads.
It's the LEDs. For us with color weakness/blindness telling the difference between a typical Red/Yellow/Orange or Red/Orange/Green is difficult, especially if they are bright. I know on the Notron sequencer in standard studio lighting I can't tell whether an LED is Orange or Red, so I have to cycle through the state to off or green to know. I had to swap the LEDs out when I owned the Sequentix P3 because the standard was impossible for me to distinguish. I used a Purple/Yellow/White LED which worked a lot better (anyone that owns those two P3s, now you know where they came from).

I'm surprised frankly that manufacturers don't pay more attention to this since the majority of the manufacturers are male and their target market is mainly males and males tend to have more color distinguishing issues.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #116
HSi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing View Post
Right, but it’s wrong to assume that everyone wants an S-3 or DR-5, or really any other hardware drum machine. I spent years with drum machines/groove boxes and workstation keyboards and they all served me well, but the moment that I started really digging into a modern DAW and using it like a performance instrument (First Live, now Bitwig) is the day I got rid of all those instruments and I honestly never looked back. For me, the best solution is a good DAW and Maschine.
I know you know your stuff and I'd think from brief conversations there'd probably be that on some level towards me.

For me, it's purely the wider range of tones etc that, the machines in context, can make. Like you I use Maschine, and now with Jam you can step lock any combination of 32 steps alone and also that crazy crazy parameter lock mode, you'd be mental to not want to use that, try combing that lock morph mode with Softube modular...



Quote:
Originally Posted by draig View Post
I quite liked Tremor. But the CPU use made it too hard to use.
Is it that high? I only use it as single track in Maschine. I redownloaded it yesterday and tbh, its a lot better than I remember. Though I guess my sound design ability has moved on and so has my monitoring set up. Using the membrane bit to make kicks is pretty good, some really odd tones. Tempting to try and recreate something like that in Reaktor and see how it comes out.

Have they (ni) released copy protection to 3rd parties as well as player format? Anyone know?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #117
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zerocrossing's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by HSi View Post
I know you know your stuff and I'd think from brief conversations there'd probably be that on some level towards me.

For me, it's purely the wider range of tones etc that, the machines in context, can make. Like you I use Maschine, and now with Jam you can step lock any combination of 32 steps alone and also that crazy crazy parameter lock mode, you'd be mental to not want to use that, try combing that lock morph mode with Softube modular...
Right, that’s exactly my stance. Wider range of tones, to me, means anything and everything, but I don’t have the space for everything and anything, so I make some concessions. I don’t have a dedicated hardware drum synth, but I make drum sounds using all my hardware synths.

Quote:
Is it that high? I only use it as single track in Maschine. I redownloaded it yesterday and tbh, its a lot better than I remember. Though I guess my sound design ability has moved on and so has my monitoring set up. Using the membrane bit to make kicks is pretty good, some really odd tones. Tempting to try and recreate something like that in Reaktor and see how it comes out.
I remember it being higher, but not crazy high... I should probably revisit it too. I remember it having a kind of “hard” tone that I really liked for some things.

Quote:
Have they (ni) released copy protection to 3rd parties as well as player format? Anyone know?
I’m not sure what you mean by that.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #118
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draig's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldgearguy View Post
It's the LEDs. For us with color weakness/blindness telling the difference between a typical Red/Yellow/Orange or Red/Orange/Green is difficult, especially if they are bright. I know on the Notron sequencer in standard studio lighting I can't tell whether an LED is Orange or Red, so I have to cycle through the state to off or green to know. I had to swap the LEDs out when I owned the Sequentix P3 because the standard was impossible for me to distinguish. I used a Purple/Yellow/White LED which worked a lot better (anyone that owns those two P3s, now you know where they came from).

I'm surprised frankly that manufacturers don't pay more attention to this since the majority of the manufacturers are male and their target market is mainly males and males tend to have more color distinguishing issues.
At least there could be a mode with brightness steps to help distinguish between colours.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #119
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jbuonacc's Avatar
i had the same problem with the LEDs on the Octratrack and original APC40.

the pad colors on Maschine (and APC40mkII) are all pretty distinct in comparison, no problems like that.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HSi View Post
Is it that high? I only use it as single track in Maschine. I redownloaded it yesterday and tbh, its a lot better than I remember. Though I guess my sound design ability has moved on and so has my monitoring set up. Using the membrane bit to make kicks is pretty good, some really odd tones. Tempting to try and recreate something like that in Reaktor and see how it comes out.
Tremor is only using 1 core... and with all engines active and depending on settings it could max 1 core and get crackles. Some of the factory presets were too heavy for me to use. I had to use 2 instances... which is then a more clumsy workflow.

My CPU is not the fastest but its decent (and my computer is quiet). I have no interest in the CPU race and constantly feeling like I want/need a faster CPU. The software that I like the sounds from most are all high CPU users... and I find it frustrating to always be dancing around the cpu limit.

I decided I would rather buy some hardware to have more voices.
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