The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
SUPER 6 - a 12 voice poly by UDO
Old 1 day ago
  #2491
Gear Head
 

Question: binaural usually only make sense using headphones. Is quadraphonic speaker setup related to binaural?
Old 1 day ago
  #2492
Lives for gear
 
Synthpark's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by trondolsen View Post
Question: binaural usually only make sense using headphones. Is quadraphonic speaker setup related to binaural?
why would it only make sense with headphones? Are you not listening in a stereo speaker triangle?
Old 1 day ago
  #2493
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthpark View Post
why would it only make sense with headphones? Are you not listening in a stereo speaker triangle?
Well in headphones you can get fairly realistic positioning front to back in say natural binaural microphone recordings.
Old 1 day ago
  #2494
Lives for gear
 
pppch's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by trondolsen View Post
Well in headphones you can get fairly realistic positioning front to back in say natural binaural microphone recordings.
of course, but the binaural pitch effect is not related to binaural head recordings.
Old 1 day ago
  #2495
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pppch View Post
of course, but the binaural pitch effect is not related to binaural head recordings.
What do you mean with a binaural pitch effect?
Old 1 day ago
  #2496
Lives for gear
 
pppch's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by trondolsen View Post
What do you mean with a binaural pitch effect?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beat_(...Binaural_beats

To make it easier to imagine, I have tube-based beat oscillators, where the effect is used for a clean sine wave.
but if a source is not completely constant, the beat itself begins to move .. and the happytrance party starts
Old 1 day ago
  #2497
Lives for gear
 
Synthpark's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by trondolsen View Post
Well in headphones you can get fairly realistic positioning front to back in say natural binaural microphone recordings.
And I get an even more realistic image in my studio using Neumann 310 in a reflection free zone although some headphones like shure 840 have an excellent stereo image. I dont think this binaural effect aims for front to back.
Old 1 day ago
  #2498
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pppch View Post
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beat_(...Binaural_beats

To make it easier to imagine, I have tube-based beat oscillators, where the effect is used for a clean sine wave.
but if a source is not completely constant, the beat itself begins to move .. and the happytrance party starts
Thanks for the link but this effect wasn't immediately obvious to me in getting a spacial sense
Old 1 day ago
  #2499
Here for the gear
 
Superchoo's Avatar
 

Update - End of June release

George has just updated progress with a little demo on Instagram.

We're looking at an end of June release, I for one can't wait.

Quote:
udo_audio
To all our supporters!
To those of you who have pre-ordered the Super 6 we want to thank you for your ongoing patience with the delays we have experienced in being able to ship our product to you. We are a small team here at UDO and it is a huge task to finish this product to the standard that it deserves. The Super 6 is something we are all extremely passionate about and we want to make sure it is done right.

With that being said, the hardware is completed and ready to go, and we are now in the final fine-tuning stages of the firmware development based on feedback from beta testing. We are aiming to be sending out our first units no later than the end of June. We will keep you all updated over the coming weeks.

Thank you again. We cannot wait to see the Super 6 in your hands, and hear what you create using it!

George and the UDO team
Old 1 day ago
  #2500
Gear Maniac
 

Here, again, is a brief explanation of the Super 6’s binaural features from its designer.

Quote:
The Binaural refers to the twin synthesizer signal paths. In Binaural mode, each channel ‘ear’ has a complete synthesizer voice. You can detune (and de-phase) the left and right oscillators, amplitude and filter (and indeed other parameters) relative to each-other. The effect is subtle to extreme stereo movement and an improved sense of 3D positioning relative to conventional mono signal-chains panned at the output. It has in this sense 6 “Super voices” that each use two “conventional” voices, hence “Super 6”
Here’s the thread.

Binaural literally means “having or relating to two ears.": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binaural
It’s a pretty broad term that basically means “stereo.” It’s not limited to anything that poor confused pooch keeps bringing up. Try to ignore his gaslighting.
Old 1 day ago
  #2501
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthpark View Post
So the Super 6 might be the lamest start in whole synth history.
I thought it was the
Old 1 day ago
  #2502
Lives for gear
 
lost_the_peace's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Analog View Post
..de-phase..

I still want to know what "de-phase" means, I've never heard that term used anywhere else..?

Are they talking about phase shifting one ear vs another for example?
Old 1 day ago
  #2503
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthpark View Post
So the Super 6 might be the lamest start in whole synth history.
I thought it was the MatrixBrute
Old 1 day ago
  #2504
Lives for gear
 
pppch's Avatar
 

The Binaural refers to the twin synthesizer signal paths. In Binaural mode, each channel ‘ear’ has a complete synthesizer voice. You can detune (and de-phase) the left and right oscillators, amplitude and filter (and indeed other parameters) relative to each-other. The effect is subtle to extreme stereo movement and an improved sense of 3D positioning relative to conventional mono signal-chains panned at the output. It has in this sense 6 “Super voices” that each use two “conventional” voices, hence “Super 6”


Binaural beats..but difficult for some to grasp. that with the phase shift is done automatically by the detune .
if you don't know that, play a real string machine. whether phase locked or not
mr.nintendo will never understand .. probably has an dummy head from akg

electronic beats may be more understandable

Old 1 day ago
  #2505
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by apessino View Post
The whole binaural (as they call it) aspect of the S6 is that oscillators are paired, detuned and phase shifted dynamically to spread their harmonics over two complete audio paths - so you have paired partials moving in the stereo field, oscillating between two independent (and independently modulated) filters, amps and envelopes.
Bumping this older reply that sums up how binaural is implemented.
Old 1 day ago
  #2506
Lives for gear
 
Synthpark's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by trondolsen View Post
Bumping this older reply that sums up how binaural is implemented.
What a joke . This cannot be the only "secret" behind binaural. This describes the Nord Lead unison function from 1996 or so. There you have two voices simply going to L and R, "each with his own filter, amp, envelope". And apparently, the Prophet X does something similar if not the same.
Old 22 hours ago
  #2507
Lives for gear
 
PeteJames's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Lehmann View Post
Seek and ye shall find!

George Hearn – designer of the Super-Six – answered this question right here on this Forum just a few months ago: Binaural deets.
Just reading through it now: This demo is stunningly emotional. Really atmospheric. I'm not sure if other synths are capable of it or not but I love it if it makes this kind of things easily programmable! Is he just unreal at demonstrating it or is it doing something very special? https://youtu.be/ahPuoA-NeeQ?t=488

Last edited by PeteJames; 13 hours ago at 10:32 AM..
Old 21 hours ago
  #2508
Lives for gear
 
apessino's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthpark View Post
What a joke . This cannot be the only "secret" behind binaural. This describes the Nord Lead unison function from 1996 or so. There you have two voices simply going to L and R, "each with his own filter, amp, envelope". And apparently, the Prophet X does something similar if not the same.
Did you read the quote? Those are not my words, btw... that's the way George explained in one of his technical dives (any errors would be my own, on the other hand) - he even described it in this very thread back in the day when it was not so full of know-it-all naysayers.

The key difference here is partials - the Nord and the Prophet X (and other stereo synth engines) don't do anything like what the Super 6 is doing. They are playing stereo samples through a fully stereo audio path, the UDO is pairing same wave oscillators, and only dephasing their partials as they are moved between the two paths, which means no phasing and essentially a different approach to spreading a wave dynamically across the stereo field. Which is why the stereo effect of the S6 is so unique.
Old 21 hours ago
  #2509
Lives for gear
 
pppch's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by apessino View Post
Did you read the quote? Those are not my words, btw... that's the way George explained in one of his technical dives (any errors would be my own, on the other hand) - he even described it in this very thread back in the day when it was not so full of know-it-all naysayers.

The key difference here is partials - the Nord and the Prophet X (and other stereo synth engines) don't do anything like what the Super 6 is doing. They are playing stereo samples through a fully stereo audio path, the UDO is pairing same wave oscillators, and only dephasing their partials as they are moved between the two paths, which means no phasing and essentially a different approach to spreading a wave dynamically across the stereo field. Which is why the stereo effect of the S6 is so unique.
<deleted by moderator - no need for snarky comment>
the whole thing is so unique that you have no idea what you're talking about ..
and if it does .. try to describe it technically in detail with your own words ..
maybe to help .. we have this centroid oscillator with its 6 sisters .. who are helplessly floating around in the stereo field .. (attention jp8000 supersaw clone)
but that can not be completely correct .. for binaural it would take two ..
So again two centroid oscillators plus 12 sisters whir around in the stereo field, the 6 plus their leader are always a tick deeper and thus cause internal conflicts with the others ..Oscillator: 2 X 7-core Super-Wavetable Main Oscillator with Waveform Download (16 slots)
is written somewhere .. that would be really binaural .. with the correct configuration.
for easier understanding .. with two simple waveforms you get a simple beat, but if the signal becomes more complex with the 12 dwarfs then the beat is also much more complex .. worn waveforms eg. with needle impulses then increase the whole thing ..
can of course be that the whole thing is just a play on words so that roland does not come up with the idea .. if you can already patent color gradients .. what about the centroid main oscillator plus its 6 sheep ..
then of course we have this dynamically de-phased, which means that the phase has been removed from the signal .. phase-free music .. maybe you should take the whole term as seriously as the release last year or in april or ..

maybe a little treatise on what supersaw is ..

ABSTRACTAnalysis of the Super Saw was done in order to provide a detailed understanding of this special oscillator found in the Roland JP-8000 and JP-8080.

Four different aspects of the Super Saw were taken into account and analyzed: the detune control, mix control, shape of the oscillators, and phase of the oscillators. To emulate the Super Saw, the visual programming environment: Outsim SynthMaker was used, because if its ease of use and flexibility. Matlab was used to handle the data from the samples, and the curve fitting tool provided functions that represent the different behaviors of the Super Saw accurately.
Analysis of different detune settings showed that the detune curve of the seven oscillators in theSuper Saw is not linear and the detune values do not result in a proportional ratio of detune amount. An 11th order polynomial curve was derived from the acquired data, accurately reproducing the actual detune curve. The mix control that changes the amplitude of the six oscillators relative to the center oscillator turns out to be different than showed in the manual of the synthesizer. The center oscillator decreases in volume in a linear fashion, where as the six other oscillators increase with a shape of a parabola.
The shape of the oscillators, are found to be actual sawtooth waveforms, however, there is a high pass filter at the fundamental harmonic of the waveforms which is “pitch tracked” that is, it follows the frequency of the first harmonic of the oscillator. To prevent the oscillators from aliasing at higher frequencies, the high pass filter removes the unwanted harmonics that are folded back into the audible spectrum below the set frequency. The phases of the oscillators are strictly random, meaning the oscillators are free running. Each note trigger produces a random value for the phase input of the oscillator, and assigns it for each note trigger.


here in more detail ..

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/185...636868a251.pdf

what may be interesting, in the interview it says the synth is "made in germany" means that it probably does not leave the eu .. except for overseas exports ... and imports into the UK. there are only two people in the UK .. he and his brother ..

Last edited by Reptil; 14 hours ago at 10:26 AM.. Reason: -
Old 21 hours ago
  #2510
Kja
Lives for gear
Some synths were not invented by behringer... Hard to believe but true.. And those few synths will bring out the haters.. you guys just need to accept this fact. They have invented so many synths that I think sometimes we forget this fact?
Old 19 hours ago
  #2511
Lives for gear
 
pr0gr4m's Avatar
Old 16 hours ago
  #2512
Lives for gear
 
Synthpark's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by apessino View Post
Did you read the quote? Those are not my words, btw... that's the way George explained in one of his technical dives (any errors would be my own, on the other hand) - he even described it in this very thread back in the day when it was not so full of know-it-all naysayers.

The key difference here is partials - the Nord and the Prophet X (and other stereo synth engines) don't do anything like what the Super 6 is doing. They are playing stereo samples through a fully stereo audio path, the UDO is pairing same wave oscillators, and only dephasing their partials as they are moved between the two paths, which means no phasing and essentially a different approach to spreading a wave dynamically across the stereo field. Which is why the stereo effect of the S6 is so unique.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthpark View Post
I think the binaural effect in the Super 6 is mainly a combination of:

- using allpass filters changing the phase of the harmonics, but not the fundamental. This is nice because the synth always knows the fundamental frequency and can adjust the allpass filter poles/zeros whereas an effect unit does not have this information.

- using phase shift between the dedicated LFOs for left and right channel to create additional asymmetries and enhance the stereo effect this way.
By the way, the Nord lead does not have a stereo path. I don't think the partials are moved between the paths, that is hardly feasible. Instead phasing is done frequency dependent, and the allpass filters are probably time variant. It also means that the two waves as such are actually not detuned because detuning would cause phasing between the fundamentals and therefore phase cancellation from time to time.
Old 14 hours ago
  #2513
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthpark View Post
I don't think the partials are moved between the paths, that is hardly feasible..
When you guys say 'move the partials between paths', what do you mean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthpark View Post
Instead phasing is done frequency dependent, and the allpass filters are probably time variant. It also means that the two waves as such are actually not detuned because detuning would cause phasing between the fundamentals and therefore phase cancellation from time to time.
Wouldn't that only happen if you sum the L and R signals to mono? Dephasing L and R won't cause any interference if they don't actually overlap, right?
I've constructed patches in Serum with things like randomized modulation of the fine-pitch parameter (differently for L and R). It's not frequency dependent, yet there's never any (audible) interference if the oscillators are panned hard R and L.
Old 14 hours ago
  #2514
Lives for gear
 
Synthpark's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjwb View Post
When you guys say 'move the partials between paths', what do you mean?

...

Wouldn't that only happen if you sum the L and R signals to mono? Dephasing L and R won't cause any interference if they don't actually overlap, right?
I've constructed patches in Serum with things like randomized modulation of the fine-pitch parameter (differently for L and R). It's not frequency dependent, yet there's never any (audible) interference if the oscillators are panned hard R and L.
There seems to be the idea that you could move partials between left and right channel.

Simply put: If you create a mono incompatible signal which almost disappears as soon as you press the mono button or as soon as you listen to speakers from a large distance thats not good. That's "modern crap".
Old 14 hours ago
  #2515
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthpark View Post
There seems to be the idea that you could move partials between left and right channel.
Still don't know what that means. Assuming 'partials' to mean Fourier amplitudes of a waveform, which I believe is how that term is used in audio, do you mean: you have waveforms L and R, and the amplitudes of the Fourier components 'oscillate' between L and R? As in: whenever the 5th Fourier component in L drops in value, the 5th Fourier component in R gains an equal amount?
Old 14 hours ago
  #2516
Pip
Lives for gear
 
Pip's Avatar
A nice pad from the super 6 just dropped on Instagram. It is lovely, but another pad - more diverse patches please UDO, we know it’s going to be a pad monster.
Old 14 hours ago
  #2517
Lives for gear
 
pppch's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pip View Post
A nice pad from the super 6 just dropped on Instagram. It is lovely, but another pad - more diverse patches please UDO, we know it’s going to be a pad monster.
with rolands supersaw only pads are possible.
he would just have to use the osc 2 to advance into the juno area. it is to be hoped that like the big brother it will be switchable,
as soon as the 100 page manual is available we know more


Old 12 hours ago
  #2518
Lives for gear
 
Synthpark's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjwb View Post
Still don't know what that means. Assuming 'partials' to mean Fourier amplitudes of a waveform, which I believe is how that term is used in audio, do you mean: you have waveforms L and R, and the amplitudes of the Fourier components 'oscillate' between L and R? As in: whenever the 5th Fourier component in L drops in value, the 5th Fourier component in R gains an equal amount?
Partials are the sinusoidal harmonics of the periodic signal at n x freq.
I didn't claim that these are oscillating between left and right. I would say, the phase difference between equal partials left and right is fluctuating due to allpass filters. He mentions allpass filters at some point.
Old 12 hours ago
  #2519
Lives for gear
 
pppch's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthpark View Post
Partials are the sinusoidal harmonics of the periodic signal at n x freq.
I didn't claim that these are oscillating between left and right. I would say, the phase difference between equal partials left and right is fluctuating due to allpass filters. He mentions allpass filters at some point.
I simulated this for ages with reaktor v1.0, it works without an allpass.
beats and phase shifts arise, and the illusion of spatiality.
Old 10 hours ago
  #2520
Lives for gear
 
pounce's Avatar
 

What a train wreck of a thread, for a synth that isn’t released yet no less. I check in suspecting more useful info might be here but instead it’s just this steaming pile. I sure hope that when it is released there can be a new and smaller thread only for people who actually own the synth to discuss it without all the noise from obnoxious pendants and random haters and what not. The signal to noise ratio in this thread is awful.
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump