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Behringer's K-2 (MS-20 clone) surfacing
Old 25th April 2020 | Show parent
  #1231
Gear Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by hcppp View Post
Finally got around to testing the INV EG2 out through a Korg Volca Modular.
How about overall compatibility between Volca modular and K2? I just got those 2 synths, and wonder if I can cross patch them.

I have read something about 3.3V limitation and Hz/V, but since I'm not an expert of modular synth, I'm not sure if I understand them correctly.

Thanks!
Old 25th April 2020 | Show parent
  #1232
Lives for gear
 
hcppp's Avatar
The 3.3V really does not apply, as I fed it 5V signals to quite a few spots,
and it does not break.

As for EG control, you could control the modulator from the CVs of the K2 if you wished.

However, the K2 is Hz/V and the Modular are V/octave, so pitch control is not too easy without external circuits.

Now adding MIDI to the modular would add some versality to it, mitigating the need for CV control for pitch.

OVerall, I bascially used my modular for a month and boxed it up, as the cables
are way too loose after only a month.

The Modular also generated lots of digital hash that my other Volcas dont make.

I will let it sit for 6 months or so, and see if I can get the KVM for better uses,
besides sitting inside its box!


Quote:
Originally Posted by momomel View Post
How about overall compatibility between Volca modular and K2? I just got those 2 synths, and wonder if I can cross patch them.

I have read something about 3.3V limitation and Hz/V, but since I'm not an expert of modular synth, I'm not sure if I understand them correctly.

Thanks!
Old 25th April 2020 | Show parent
  #1233
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hcppp View Post

OVerall, I bascially used my modular for a month and boxed it up, as the cables
are way too loose after only a month.

The Modular also generated lots of digital hash that my other Volcas dont make.

I will let it sit for 6 months or so, and see if I can get the KVM for better uses,
besides sitting inside its box!
KVM? Korg Volca Modular?
no good then ?
what do you mean by 'digital hash'?
is 6 months a kind of maturation period? :-)

(edit: oh i read the Modular thread)

Last edited by ibtl; 25th April 2020 at 11:36 PM..
Old 26th April 2020 | Show parent
  #1234
Gear Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by hcppp View Post
Now adding MIDI to the modular would add some versality to it, mitigating the need for CV control for pitch.
Great. I'll add MIDI to Volka, it seems to be easy to DIY with a photo coupler. Thank you for useful information.

BTW, digital hash is very welcome, since my most favorite synth is PPG!
Old 27th April 2020
  #1235
Lives for gear
If the K-2 is like the MS-20, you can control it with v/oct by going into the VCO mod input and then carefully adjusting the tuning and mod amount. You’ll get 3-4 octaves of V/oct control. And converting the v-trig from Eurorack to S-trig for the MS-20 is arguably the perfect starter project for somebody who just bought a soldering iron. The conversion literally requires two simple components (a transistor and a resistor), and is easily built into a custom cable.

Going the other way, envelope and LFO outputs from the MS-20 will modulate other instruments in a pinch. But converting the MS-20’s pitch CV and S-trig to connect to the rest of the modular world is a bit more involved.

Really, with just a little elbow grease the Hz/V scaling and S-triggers on the MS-20 are not that much of a barrier!
Old 27th April 2020 | Show parent
  #1236
Gear Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by infindebula View Post
If the K-2 is like the MS-20, you can control it with v/oct by going into the VCO mod input and then carefully adjusting the tuning and mod amount. You’ll get 3-4 octaves of V/oct control.
Very nice idea. I'll try this.
Old 28th April 2020 | Show parent
  #1237
Gear Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by infindebula View Post
If the K-2 is like the MS-20, you can control it with v/oct by going into the VCO mod input and then carefully adjusting the tuning and mod amount. You’ll get 3-4 octaves of V/oct control.
I confirmed this method works.

Volca's internal voltage is 0.5V/Oct, so 2X gain adapter is required. Or I think I can program micro tuning on Volca (haven't tested yet).
Old 3rd June 2020
  #1238
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hcppp's Avatar
***SUPER SIMPLE 3 PATCH CABLE SPACE VIBRATO TUTORIAL****

I was going to do a YT video but it is easy to describe by text.


Patch Cable #1 : Reverse EG1 Out to VCA CV.
Patch Cable #2 : White Noise to VCA Input.
Patch Cable #3 : VCA output to Total Input.

EG1 Settings:
Delay=0
Attack=0
Release=(start at 6, adjust to taste)

Total In Pot Settings:
TotalFreq: about 3
TotalHP: about 4
TotalLP: about 4

The effect:
On keydown, the inverted EG is at 0V which closes the Vactrol VCA.
When you release a key, the release stage rises to +5V and opens the VCA and the noise input
at a rate set by the release.

Naturally the settting of release on EG2 will play a part as well, I generally set the release on EG1 to about the same as EG2.
By setting the release in EG1 longer, the slower the effect ramps in.

It's early in the morning and I only had one coffee, hope I got this right!
Old 3rd June 2020
  #1239
Gear Nut
 
Serotoninja's Avatar
too bad K-2 doesn't have Unisono V as mod source, right?
Old 4th June 2020
  #1240
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hcppp's Avatar
Here's the patching for "Space Vibrato".
works on MS-20xx and Behringer K-2



Old 28th June 2020 | Show parent
  #1241
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4AD View Post
The supplied PSUs AFAIK all have the same rating of 1A. Again, this does not mean their synths actually draw 1A. Look up the individual consumption in the manual, at least for the Neutron it was stated there.
It however means that a) economy of scale applies by including the same standard (TC Electronics) PSU and b) PSU under-utilization is definitely way better for part life time and often efficiency than operating near the continuous rated limit.


EDIT: Instead of speculating / repeating gossip, i've took that effort needed & actually checked all available Quick Start Guides.


Current & power draw of Behringer Eurorack-compatible synth modules

K2
QSG on page 43: 12 W maximum of power consumption.
This equals to 1000 mA @ 12V of current draw.
Wtf? IMHO, Behringer did a lazy job there regarding that spec. Come on guys, this can't be real? What is the real figure?
EDIT: So Korg states 9 W for their MS-20 Mini (which is comparable from a design POV), this too equals to 1 A @ 9 V. Oh well.

Model D
QSG on page 48: 7 W max. of power consumption.
This equals to 583.33 mA @ 12 V of current draw.
Looks ok.

Neutron
QSG on page 54: 7.5-9 W typical of power consumption.
This equals to 625-750 mA @ 12 V of current draw.
More appropriate & convincing, but are they telling me the EE / design / synth architecture differences between K2 & Neutron are making an impact of a whopping 1-2.5 W?

Pro-1
QSG on page 33: 8 W maximum of power consumption.
This equals to 666.67 mA @ 12 V of current draw.
And thats with 3x 3340...

Wasp Deluxe
QSG on page 24: 2 W of power consumption.
This equals to 166.67 mA @ 12 V of current draw.
Nice - DCOs seem cheap regarding the juice.


Anyway, again, my advice is: Stop repeating this nonsense about that 1 A consumption; these questions quickly came up when the D was released and ppl initially freaked out due its PSU rating.

Regardless of space constraints (2x 140 HE, unfortunately not 2x 160 for holding 4 full-width units) could their 3 A rated case PSU provide juice for at least 3x Neutron (at maximum usage) and 1x Pro-1 - If (and that's a big IF) their QSG data is correct.

The new Doepfer P9 would only run 2 Boog's, it couldn't do much else and wouldn't do 3.
Old 5th August 2020 | Show parent
  #1242
Gear Nut
 
Gloompegs's Avatar
 

Volume

Just got one of these!

It seems like the volume is noticeably lower than other synths I've got (MS-1 and Crave). I'm making sure the filters are both open with no resonance, and that both mixer levels and the main volume are on full.

If I copy the same settings (open filter, full volume) on the crave for example it's almost blowing my ears off - peaking at about -6db for the saw alone, and about -2.5db for the pulse alone.

But the K-2 is only peaking at around -20db for BOTH oscillators set to a saw wave (the sustain on env 2 is at full too) and around -18db for pulse waves. Mixers levels max, volume max.

Is this inherent in the K-2/MS-20 design? Is it just a thing and that's the way it is? Or do I have a dud?
Old 5th August 2020 | Show parent
  #1243
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gloompegs View Post
Just got one of these!

It seems like the volume is noticeably lower than other synths I've got (MS-1 and Crave). I'm making sure the filters are both open with no resonance, and that both mixer levels and the main volume are on full.

If I copy the same settings (open filter, full volume) on the crave for example it's almost blowing my ears off - peaking at about -6db for the saw alone, and about -2.5db for the pulse alone.

But the K-2 is only peaking at around -20db for BOTH oscillators set to a saw wave (the sustain on env 2 is at full too) and around -18db for pulse waves. Mixers levels max, volume max.

Is this inherent in the K-2/MS-20 design? Is it just a thing and that's the way it is? Or do I have a dud?
Mine is quieter to other synths too. I got gain on my mixer, so it ain't a big deal. I haven't tried the phones out though.
Old 6th August 2020 | Show parent
  #1244
Lives for gear
 
atma's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gloompegs View Post
Just got one of these!

It seems like the volume is noticeably lower than other synths I've got (MS-1 and Crave). I'm making sure the filters are both open with no resonance, and that both mixer levels and the main volume are on full.

If I copy the same settings (open filter, full volume) on the crave for example it's almost blowing my ears off - peaking at about -6db for the saw alone, and about -2.5db for the pulse alone.

But the K-2 is only peaking at around -20db for BOTH oscillators set to a saw wave (the sustain on env 2 is at full too) and around -18db for pulse waves. Mixers levels max, volume max.

Is this inherent in the K-2/MS-20 design? Is it just a thing and that's the way it is? Or do I have a dud?
Considering that the K-2 has an unbalanced TS output, you might consider getting a little passive box to convert from unbalanced TS cables to balanced TRS cables (or XLR). You'll generally get a little bit of gain boost with a balanced signal vs. unbalanced (maybe 6-10 dB). If you're connecting the K-2 to your audio interface via a 1/4" cable to a line-level input, that input on the interface is generally expecting a balanced TRS line-level signal, which is why using a little converter box can be potentially useful (otherwise the unbalanced signal going into a balanced input is going to be a little bit quieter). I personally use one of these:

(edit) also simply make sure that you're recording in your DAW @ 24-bit. Even a signal at -20 dB ought to be absolutely fine with 24-bit recording because you have so much more dynamic range than typical 16 bit. I hope that helps! Best of luck.
Attached Thumbnails
Behringer's K-2 (MS-20 clone) surfacing-20200805_173456.jpg  

Last edited by atma; 6th August 2020 at 01:03 AM..
Old 6th August 2020 | Show parent
  #1245
Gear Nut
 
Gloompegs's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by atma View Post
Considering that the K-2 has an unbalanced TS output, you might consider getting a little passive box to convert from unbalanced TS cables to balanced TRS cables (or XLR). You'll generally get a little bit of gain boost with a balanced signal vs. unbalanced (maybe 6-10 dB). If you're connecting the K-2 to your audio interface via a 1/4" cable to a line-level input, that input on the interface is generally expecting a balanced TRS line-level signal, which is why using a little converter box can be potentially useful (otherwise the unbalanced signal going into a balanced input is going to be a little bit quieter). I personally use one of these:

(edit) also simply make sure that you're recording in your DAW @ 24-bit. Even a signal at -20 dB ought to be absolutely fine with 24-bit recording because you have so much more dynamic range than typical 16 bit. I hope that helps! Best of luck.
That does help, thank you. Will run with it and add gain down the line somewhere if I need it. Cheers.
Old 6th August 2020 | Show parent
  #1246
Gear Nut
 
Gloompegs's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by neorev View Post
Mine is quieter to other synths too. I got gain on my mixer, so it ain't a big deal. I haven't tried the phones out though.
OK good to know. Many thanks.
Old 6th August 2020
  #1247
Lives for gear
 
hcppp's Avatar
My MS-20Kit is low compared to my Blofeld or Vermonas.

I set the master on the MS-20Kit to the 3 oclock position for volume for reference.
Old 24th September 2020
  #1248
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Just got hold of one of these and I'm impressed. Only had my first few tweaks but I like it more than the MS20 Mini. The filter switch is fantastic, two good options right where you want it, on a front panel switch. Far better than being stuck with one noisy filter or that "hold a key down" business. Even though it's got a slightly smaller panel than the Mini, it feels more tweakable. Much better as a compact desktop than a "neither one thing or another" space-chewing, scale-replica, "not a toy, honest guv!", overpriced minikey monstrosity. Bass end is satisfying too, it's hard to say if that's better without a direct comparison but no complaints on the general tone. It might not match a vintage MS but it seems absolutely fine to my ears. Runs on 12V DC, the Mini runs on 9V - I wonder if that makes a difference? I always felt like I was fighting with the Mini, the K2 seems far more agreeable.
Old 24th September 2020 | Show parent
  #1249
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockmanrock View Post
Just got hold of one of these and I'm impressed. Only had my first few tweaks but I like it more than the MS20 Mini. The filter switch is fantastic, two good options right where you want it, on a front panel switch. Far better than being stuck with one noisy filter or that "hold a key down" business. Even though it's got a slightly smaller panel than the Mini, it feels more tweakable. Much better as a compact desktop than a "neither one thing or another" space-chewing, scale-replica, "not a toy, honest guv!", overpriced minikey monstrosity. Bass end is satisfying too, it's hard to say if that's better without a direct comparison but no complaints on the general tone. It might not match a vintage MS but it seems absolutely fine to my ears. Runs on 12V DC, the Mini runs on 9V - I wonder if that makes a difference? I always felt like I was fighting with the Mini, the K2 seems far more agreeable.
I had the same reaction. I dunno, something about the MS-20 Mini didn't click with me. It also felt cheap and plastic. But the K-2, love it. Feels solid and I find myself doing more with it.
Old 24th September 2020
  #1250
vlz
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vlz's Avatar
I think the K2 looks much more classy tbh with its colour scheme etc
Old 24th September 2020 | Show parent
  #1251
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Syn303's Avatar
I sold my K2 ages ago, was great for making gull noises on though!
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1252
Just thought I'd pop in with a little thing I put together playing with the K-2 today. Every sound is sourced from the K-2, even the drums.

I want a second one tbh.

Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #1253
Gear Maniac
 
kaykaynotk's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gloompegs View Post
Just got one of these!

It seems like the volume is noticeably lower than other synths I've got (MS-1 and Crave). I'm making sure the filters are both open with no resonance, and that both mixer levels and the main volume are on full.

If I copy the same settings (open filter, full volume) on the crave for example it's almost blowing my ears off - peaking at about -6db for the saw alone, and about -2.5db for the pulse alone.

But the K-2 is only peaking at around -20db for BOTH oscillators set to a saw wave (the sustain on env 2 is at full too) and around -18db for pulse waves. Mixers levels max, volume max.

Is this inherent in the K-2/MS-20 design? Is it just a thing and that's the way it is? Or do I have a dud?
I've never used an MS-20 so couldn't compare but the main VCA on my K2 has bags more level than is normalled. If you send EG1 into the main VCA via the spare VCA using a positive voltage as the mod source (I used the mod out CV on my Keystep) then you can get a much hotter signal output with negligible distortion.

Initially I was disappointed with the punchyness but doing a little bit of patching seems to pay dividends. The way the envelopes work means that one or the other might not quite get you the shape you want with offsets etc.

The MS-20 seems a very neat design overall with regard to breaking the normalled wiring. Which makes it more surprising that they missed out PWM. On the plus side I wouldn't be too precious about handing it to someone else to mod for that if possible whereas with a vintage MS-20 I would not be comfortable doing the same!!

So far so impressed, I've put about 2.5 hours playing in. I don't think I would've been fully satisfied with either of the filters so I'm glad they included both with a switch. The noise that accompanies filter one seems like it'd be easy enough to EQ out on the bass patches I've been creating.
Old 1 week ago
  #1254
i bought one again, to see what it would sound like with the cat, neutron and pro 1 envs triggering the filter. WHOA. this is killer with the pro one env.. Like whoa...This brings the k2 to a whole nother level... Try it if you have the others.. I hate the envs on the k2, but with the pro one envs, its a snappy beast.

DF
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #1255
Gear Addict
 

I got 2 K-2‘s and both have a severe bug when using DIN MIDI.

After a while (15 min to 1 hour) there is some kind of overflow, notes get stuck and laggy. Only a restart helps.
It doesn’t seem to happen with USB MIDI.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #1256
Gear Guru
 
Jamie munro's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by plastic_ View Post
I got 2 K-2‘s and both have a severe bug when using DIN MIDI.

After a while (15 min to 1 hour) there is some kind of overflow, notes get stuck and laggy. Only a restart helps.
It doesn’t seem to happen with USB MIDI.
Did you report this to behringer?

Best way to get it resolved, ticket for support , if you can replicate it or others can
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #1257
Gear Nut
 
Gloompegs's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaykaynotk View Post
I've never used an MS-20 so couldn't compare but the main VCA on my K2 has bags more level than is normalled. If you send EG1 into the main VCA via the spare VCA using a positive voltage as the mod source (I used the mod out CV on my Keystep) then you can get a much hotter signal output with negligible distortion.

Initially I was disappointed with the punchyness but doing a little bit of patching seems to pay dividends. The way the envelopes work means that one or the other might not quite get you the shape you want with offsets etc.

The MS-20 seems a very neat design overall with regard to breaking the normalled wiring. Which makes it more surprising that they missed out PWM. On the plus side I wouldn't be too precious about handing it to someone else to mod for that if possible whereas with a vintage MS-20 I would not be comfortable doing the same!!

So far so impressed, I've put about 2.5 hours playing in. I don't think I would've been fully satisfied with either of the filters so I'm glad they included both with a switch. The noise that accompanies filter one seems like it'd be easy enough to EQ out on the bass patches I've been creating.
Very interesting indeed, I'll try this later on. I've just been turning the volume up further up the chain to compensate. Cheers.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #1258
Gear Nut
 
Gloompegs's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by plastic_ View Post
I got 2 K-2‘s and both have a severe bug when using DIN MIDI.

After a while (15 min to 1 hour) there is some kind of overflow, notes get stuck and laggy. Only a restart helps.
It doesn’t seem to happen with USB MIDI.
I've noticed this once or twice as well. At the time I had a midi keyboard plugged into the DIN in.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #1259
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gloompegs View Post
I've noticed this once or twice as well. At the time I had a midi keyboard plugged into the DIN in.
Good to know!

We need a firmware fix ASAP.
I suspect it’s some kind of buffer overflow issue in the digital part.

Can anyone else confirm this?
I plan to make a video demo for proof but it will take a while.

Symptoms: MIDI notes coming from the DIN midi port get laggy/stuck after some time of operation. Sometimes 15 min, sometimes 1 hour.
It’s worse when there is midi clock but it also happens when there are only note on/off commands.
Fix (for a while): Restart the machine by turning power off/on.

It doesn’t seem to happen with USB MIDI and also not happening with DIN MIDI when a USB cable is plugged in at the same time.
But then there is another issue (as with all Behringer modules and many other USB devices) - possible USB ground noise that creeps into the audio signal. I don’t consider this a bug but it keeps me from using USB instead of DIN MIDI.
Old 1 week ago
  #1260
vlz
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vlz's Avatar
Looks like some buffering bug.
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