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Kurzweil PC4
Old 10th September 2020
  #2311
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The big comparison for the PC4 was the ModX, which goes for $1,999.99 (88 key), $1,599.99 (76 key), and $1,399.99 (61 key).

So it's got to be in that ball park range if they want to sell any.
Old 10th September 2020
  #2312
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by felis View Post
The big comparison for the PC4 was the ModX, which goes for $1,999.99 (88 key), $1,599.99 (76 key), and $1,399.99 (61 key).

So it's got to be in that ball park range if they want to sell any.
Right. So $1599 would seem to be a reasonable MSRP, rather than $1799.
Old 10th September 2020
  #2313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Docflick View Post
Well, that would be surprising – and disappointing.

There is usually at least a $300 or $400 gap between "flagship" 88-key weighted boards and their 76-key semi-weighted equivalents.
We don't know. But even if the price is not as low as you hope, there is a cup-half-full rather than cup-half-empty way of looking at this. The Krome and MODX have a $400 price differential between their 7 and 8 models, but the Roland FA has only a $250 differential... and the FA is the only one of them where the action used in the 7 is better than the one used in the 6. So my hope would be, if the price differentical on the PC4 is on the small side, it's because the action of the 7 is of above average quality.

Last edited by anotherscott; 10th September 2020 at 05:18 PM..
Old 10th September 2020
  #2314
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uOpt's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by anotherscott View Post
So my hope would be, if the price differentical on the PC4 is on the small side, it's because the action of the 7 is of above average quality.
Not to mention the keyboard in the 88 is already a cheap thing. $400 differences usually appear when the 88 version is high quality. So my guess is less than $400 difference.
Old 10th September 2020
  #2315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felis View Post
The big comparison for the PC4 was the ModX, which goes for $1,999.99 (88 key), $1,599.99 (76 key), and $1,399.99 (61 key).

So it's got to be in that ball park range if they want to sell any.
When the PC4 came out, IIRC, it was $1999 vs $1899 for the MODX8 (which has subsequently gone up in price). I think the PC4 has enough advantages over the MODX that they can justify being a bit more expensive. Heck, I'd have paid $100 more just to have aftertouch in my MODX, and the PC4 also adds assignable outs, clonehweel engine, etc.

I'm not saying they won't price it where the MODX is, only that they could also justify it being higher.
Old 10th September 2020
  #2316
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anotherscott View Post
....
I'm not saying they won't price it where the MODX is, only that they could also justify it being higher.

Sales are the bottom line regardless of justifications.
Old 10th September 2020
  #2317
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felis View Post
Sales are the bottom line regardless of justifications.
Right, and they need to do their analyses/projections accorindgly. But personally, I wouldn't be averse to spending more on a PC4 vs. a MODX. In fact, honestly, when I bought the PC4, if they said I could have a 19 lb 76-key semi-weighted version for the same price, I would have bought it instead.
Old 10th September 2020
  #2318
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Fleer's Avatar
I checked PC3 pricing in 2014. But there was also a 61 back then.
Personally I’d love to have a 61 next to my 88.
The 88 has perfect dimensions for me, an ideal companion for my Roland RD88 and the Fantom 7 with the same width.
Old 10th September 2020
  #2319
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duplobaustein's Avatar
Regarding a 61 version, Fran said that they don't really sell compared to 7 or 8 versions, so you shouldn't expect it to happen.
Old 10th September 2020
  #2320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duplobaustein View Post
Regarding a 61 version, Fran said that they don't really sell compared to 7 or 8 versions, so you shouldn't expect it to happen.
I wouldn't really expect him to say anything besides that, two days after a 76 key version is announced.

I'm sure they're all different, and for Kurzweil that may be true, but I'd really like to see overall sales figures from the whole group of keyboard manufacturers for their different size boards.
Fat chance of that though.
Old 11th September 2020
  #2321
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I think it would vary with manufacturer. Kurzweil has typically sold higher end boards, where 7x boards are likely to be popular. In lower end boards (where buyers may be more price conscious), 61 key boards have probably done better.

Consider also that Yamaha always had 7x key versions of their different Motif models (and the Montage when it came out), but until the MODX, never had a 7x key version of the budget derivatives (MO, MM, MOX, MOXF, MX), all available only in 61 and 88. Korg doesn't make a 7x version of the Kross workstation, only of the more upscale Krome and Kronos. Roland didn't come out with 7x versions of the Juno DS and FA until after the 61 and 88 key versions proved themselves successful. Casio has not made 7x key versions of most of their boards. So I think traditionally, 61 and 88 have been the big sellers on the low end, but as you move up to pricier boards (or pricier brands like Nord, Dexibell, and Kurzweil), the 7x market starts showing more strength. I realize none of that indicates that 61 key boards don't sell well (in fact, the contrary), but my point is that, in higher end boards, there seems to be more of a 7x market than there is in lower end boards, so maybe it's from that perspective that Kurz sees more promise in a 76 than a 61.

I'd suggest that if the 76 is a massive hit, they might add a 61, but as discussed earlier, the inability to put the 61 in a noticeably smaller chassis than the 76 without a complete redesign may not exist.
Old 11th September 2020
  #2322
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Fleer's Avatar
Indicative pricing (RRP) here:

“Als unverbindliche Preisempfehlung (UVP) gibt Kurzweil für das PC4-7 €2.086,84, für das SP6-7 €1.158,84 (beides inklusive 16% MwSt.) an.”

https://www.amazona.de/kurzweil-erwe...ation-angebot/

In comparison, PC4’s UVP was €2.318,84 so the actual price difference with PC4-7 could be 10%.

Note: PC4’s UVP at launch included 19% VAT, while German VAT has been temporarily lowered to 16% as a Covid-measure.
Old 11th September 2020
  #2323
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleer View Post
Weird pricing (RRP) here:

“Als unverbindliche Preisempfehlung gibt Kurzweil für das PC4-7 €2.086,84, für das SP6-7 €1.158,84 (beides inklusive 16% MwSt.) an.”

https://www.amazona.de/kurzweil-erwe...ation-angebot/
If I'm reading this correctly, the 2086 euro price for the PC4-7 includes the 16% VAT, correct?

So removing the VAT would mean a base MSRP of approximately 1750 euros, or approximately $2000 (US).

Weird pricing, indeed. Since the PC4 (88) currently sells for $1999.
Old 11th September 2020
  #2324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Docflick View Post
Weird pricing, indeed. Since the PC4 (88) currently sells for $1999.
Pricing in other countries can be a helpful guide in terms of comparing one model to another from a given manufacturer, but will not necesarily translate to what something will sell for in the U.S. in absolute dollars, which can involve different delivery/distribution costs, different import tarriffs, etc. You can find plenty of examples where a given item is more or less expensive elsewhere.
Old 11th September 2020
  #2325
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Fleer's Avatar
Yeah, that includes VAT, but again, these are RRP (UVP) prices. I think only a relative comparison can be made between them, hence the suggested 10% difference, whether RRP or street pricing. This could mean US stores like Sweetwater would set PC4-7 at $1799, compared to PC4 at $1999.

(The PC4-7 UVP at €2.086,84 is 10% off the PC4 UVP at €2.318,84.)
Old 11th September 2020
  #2326
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Toddskins's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by anotherscott View Post
Looking at the front panel, they could conceivably make a 61 of the SP6, but the only way they could fit the existing control surface/electronics of the PC4 into a 61 would be to move the wheels to the left of the keys... which would make it barely smaller than the 76.

Having more than 61 keys on a non-piano oriented board is very useful for splits, including doing LH bass. And if you're looking to gig with a single lightweight board (making the compromise of having no hammer action for piano), the extra keys are useful for the piano parts you'll still be playing. Even Rhodes, Wurli, and Clavinet had key ranges that fall outside of the 61 C-to-C.

Which brings up 2 good points for those (of us) who desire such.

I do not like at all (enough that it inhibits a purchase for me on any keyboard), if the ModWheel and Pitchbend are not to the left of the keys. So if redesigning the PC4 was a necessity in order to achieve it on a 61, well then "Super!" Where they placed those 2 controllers on these two PC4's is a real turnoff for me.

Like so many, we already have 88-key Kurzweils (Forte, PC3K8, even Kurzweil K2600X and K2500XS, etc.) and are looking for a synth-action accompanying synth.

And as a few have stated (though we know it will never happen) there are some who would love to see a Rack mount PC4 (which I would even go for) just to gain the PC4 technology.

The PC4 in its basic make-up, has so much to offer which is why we who already own Kurzweil workstations (don't go sideways over a definition) would love to add the technology to our existing setups. We just don't need nor want to add 76 or another 88 keybed into our workspace.
Old 11th September 2020
  #2327
Gear Head
 

yup. 61 key synth action please. my K2600XS isn't going anywhere.
Old 11th September 2020
  #2328
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by anotherscott View Post
Pricing in other countries can be a helpful guide in terms of comparing one model to another from a given manufacturer, but will not necesarily translate to what something will sell for in the U.S. in absolute dollars, which can involve different delivery/distribution costs, different import tarriffs, etc. You can find plenty of examples where a given item is more or less expensive elsewhere.
Right. I've read here and on other forums that European pricing on most instruments tends to be higher than in the US, even apart from the VAT. Certainly hopeful that's the case with the PC4-7 – I really think anything higher than $1699 would be hard to justify.
Old 11th September 2020
  #2329
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The Kurzweil site is down. They're probably putting up the info for the PC4-61.
Old 11th September 2020
  #2330
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toddskins View Post
Which brings up 2 good points for those (of us) who desire such.

I do not like at all (enough that it inhibits a purchase for me on any keyboard), if the ModWheel and Pitchbend are not to the left of the keys. So if redesigning the PC4 was a necessity in order to achieve it on a 61, well then "Super!" Where they placed those 2 controllers on these two PC4's is a real turnoff for me.

Like so many, we already have 88-key Kurzweils (Forte, PC3K8, even Kurzweil K2600X and K2500XS, etc.) and are looking for a synth-action accompanying synth.
Good point that even a 61 with wheels to the left (i.e. not much smaller than the 76), would still have more appeal to some, as would a synth action, though I wouldn't assume anything about the action until we see what the 76 actually feels like. (And in the PC3LE, they chose to use the same action as the 76 in the 61 anyway.)
Old 11th September 2020
  #2331
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bobule's Avatar
 

Oooh these sound great, I would love to replace my PC3 with one!
Old 11th September 2020
  #2332
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Musician's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by felis View Post
Something like this, but without crooked keys, banged up edges, and sloppy craftsmanship

I'm sure that if they intended to make a 61, they worked out the details in the planning stages.
Of course the blank space in the left top is useless, the panel doesn't need to be that cramped
Old 11th September 2020
  #2333
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Site's back up: https://kurzweil.com/workstation_synthesizers/

I find it really difficult to believe that there won't be a PC4-61.
The only things up there are the Forte and PC4 since the PC3A and PC3K aren't readily available,
are superseded by the PC4, and are the only ones listed that have a 61 key version.
Time will tell.

Last edited by felis; 11th September 2020 at 05:47 PM..
Old 11th September 2020
  #2334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Musician View Post
Of course the blank space in the left top is useless, the panel doesn't need to be that cramped
Everything you see on top, sliders, display, and all the rest, is connected to circuits boards inside that you don't see.
It might be possible to spread the separate components out a little - not without a new design though.
Old 11th September 2020
  #2335
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abruzzi's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by felis View Post
I find it really difficult to believe that there won't be a PC4-61.
Unfortunately, I don't. While the K2000 was only and ever a 61 key synth, there was never a 61 key K2500 and they didn't release the K2661 until the very end of the K2600 life span. There was a PC361 and PC3K6. But there's no 61 key Forte. So Kurzweil has been on and off with 61 key synths.

I do hope for it. I may still get the PC4-7, but I'm in no rush.
Old 12th September 2020
  #2336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abruzzi View Post
Unfortunately, I don't. While the K2000 was only and ever a 61 key synth, there was never a 61 key K2500 and they didn't release the K2661 until the very end of the K2600 life span. There was a PC361 and PC3K6. But there's no 61 key Forte. So Kurzweil has been on and off with 61 key synths.

I do hope for it. I may still get the PC4-7, but I'm in no rush.

I think they'll lose more sales having a 76 and no 61 than vice-versa.

I could be wrong though - what do I know?

Just took a quick peek and it looks like K2000 versions were available from 1990 until 2003, and the K2661 was introduced in 2004.
Could be wrong about that too - it's 2nd hand information.

Last edited by felis; 12th September 2020 at 02:51 AM..
Old 13th September 2020
  #2337
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Fleer's Avatar
Looking at PC4-7 pics and measurements I find little advantage in downsizing from the 88. Those funnily twisted end caps are to blame I guess. But the great thing about the newborn is that even more attention may go to firmware updates. After all, a PC4-6 may follow if PC4 and PC4-7 do well.
Old 13th September 2020
  #2338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleer View Post
Looking at PC4-7 pics and measurements I find little advantage in downsizing from the 88. Those funnily twisted end caps are to blame I guess.
The difference in length may be less than it could have been (though still not insignificant), but the weight difference is definitely substantial.

For the rare occasions I gig with just one board, hammer and non-hammer actions are both compromises one way or the other. So while I won't know for sure until I actual play this new action, I suspect I'd be about equally comfortable (or equally uncomfortable as the case may be) with either of them as an "only" board.

As part of a pair, some will definitely want the 88, if they're looking for something to pair with a particular non-hammer board they want to use... or vice versa. I could actually combine it either way, but I'd probably find more use for it in the smaller, lighter, semi-weighted version. Part of this is that I realized just how much I like having the actions of 2-board rig really close, and putting another board above the PC4 ended up putting that board farther back than I'd have liked. Some of my pairing options have shallow control surfaces, so I tried putting the "top" board on bottom, but the PC4 has so much height beneath the keys that it still seemed a bit awkard. As a top board, the 76's will sit more nicely above any shallow-controlled board beneath.
Old 13th September 2020
  #2339
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Fleer's Avatar
Good points, A/Scott, as always.
My MO seems to be having two versions of the same instrument: one for home (88-key preferably) and one for the road (61-key).
Old 4 weeks ago
  #2340
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steelyfan's Avatar
 

Any news on the release date or type of keys they plan on using in the PC4-7?

I hope they don’t skimp out on cheap feeling keys, I know most of us here what pay a bit more for a nice feeling instrument.
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