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Kurzweil PC4 Keyboard Synthesizers
Old 2nd April 2019
  #31
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Klonfocius's Avatar
 

Quote:
New! - 6-operator FM Engine with the ability to import 80's/90's FM SysEx files
Whoho, that suggest SY77-TG77-SY99 sounds!....And to do that properly it means LFO speed and EG rates has to be way faster then the previous Kurzweil crap! I kan feel it cumin....in the air tonight...im goooiiiiing.......
Old 2nd April 2019
  #32
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unease's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klonfocius View Post
And to do that properly it means LFO speed and EG rates has to be way faster then the previous Kurzweil crap!
What makes you think that? The frequency modulation doesn't inherently need faster LFOs or envelopes, does it? I would be very surpriced (and happy!) if they had done that change!
Old 2nd April 2019
  #33
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When I had my K2600, I ended up wishing I could gut it, cut the weight to about 1/3,
and just leave in enough stuff to do setups for external stuff, and of course still have the ribbons and pedal/breath inputs.
It made an excellent controller.
I still would like something like that from them - a controller board just like the PC4, at a very reasonable price.
I'll take all the sound generating stuff if I don't have a choice, but I could do without it if it drives the price up too high.
Old 2nd April 2019
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unease View Post
What makes you think that?
I dont think i guess based on Kurzweils marketed-engineering circumstances...

Quote:
The frequency modulation doesn't inherently need faster LFOs or envelopes, does it?
You are mixing separate things, PhaseModulation process timing is separate from EG and LFO timing as they can be fast or slowly generated dependning of requirement while PM always has to be in +audio range to be of sonic quality. EG and LFO in the SY's are on separate computation chips in hardware not software. We shall wait and see ,if Kurzweil using same old PC3 ASIC DSP's(i assume based on other folks reports) and if they do EG and LFO there we are all toast "again" and their claim of 90ies compatibility is fakenews.

PC3, 2007 MARA DSP, rev C, surely Kurzt have progressed from that? no?
Old 2nd April 2019
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTheDog View Post
I wonder how much?
Must be less than Artis (which has Fatar keyboard)

Otherwise, it won't sell

I guess something between Artis and SP

Old 2nd April 2019
  #36
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EvilDragon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klonfocius View Post
Whoho, that suggest SY77-TG77-SY99 sounds!...
Nope, just DX7 sounds. No RCM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klonfocius View Post
if Kurzweil using same old PC3 ASIC DSP's(i assume based on other folks reports) and if they do EG and LFO there we are all toast "again" and their claim of 90ies compatibility is fakenews.

PC3, 2007 MARA DSP, rev C, surely Kurzt have progressed from that? no?
They have LENA now, which is 2x MARA and a FPGA instead of ASIC.
Old 2nd April 2019
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Nope, just DX7 sounds. No RCM.
Nope , they said ""90'eis sysexlusive"" which is SY99 PM which is entirely different chips then DX7.
They could just skip the ROMple replay part, easy peasy! The ROMple chips is separate from the PM chips in the SY's.
The EG and LFO and sound gen is quite different compared to SY's as any DX7 sound has to be translated into SY format and its not 1:1 in sound reply, many lengthy threads describing all about that here and elsewhere.

Quote:
They have LENA now, which is 2x MARA and a FPGA instead of ASIC.
Superb, a major rework of the whole garabage, that means SY99 and DX7, DX7II and FS1R PM capability! Whohoo!
Finally millions and millions of Rohdes Epiano sounds to chose from!
Old 2nd April 2019
  #38
Gear Maniac
 

The plastic construction and low-end keybed points at this being a mid-range keyboard that will be priced to compete wth the likes of the MODX, not the Montage or Kronos. I was considering a MODX, but I like the look of this beastie a lot more because:

1) Aftertouch.
2) A lot more controls to tweak during performance.
3) Real sequencer.
4) Numeric keypad for dialing in sounds quickly.
5) More user sample RAM than the Montage, let alone the MODX.
6) Dedicated organ engine.
7) More polyphony.
8) Ribbon controller input.

The drawback of course is that I already have a PC361, so it's likely that many of the sounds in the PC4 will be exactly the same. Much will therefore depend on how compelling the new stuff is for me. If it's mostly pianos and electric pianos then I'll stick with what I have, because I can get an electronic piano with those sounds on it without having to play them on the ropey keyboards they put in mid-range synths.
Old 2nd April 2019
  #39
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Well, no, it doesn't mean that at all. What they showed was just the regular 32 DX7 algos and that's it. Nothing more than that
Old 2nd April 2019
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Well, no, it doesn't mean that at all. What they showed was just the regular 32 DX7 algos and that's it. Nothing more than that
I havent seen any shows of the PC4, whwre did they do that? And if im DISSAPOINT since they easily can implement it and should! If its only the DX7 then they are just reusing the DX7 code that ran on K2000 and newer implemented back in the days. Now i'm VERY DISAPPOINT!
Old 2nd April 2019
  #41
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There were some screenshots of the implementation on Forte OS 4.0. This is the same development that's going in PC4. So... probably no SY for ya.



On the other hand, FM implementation that Kurzweil did is a separate engine, so you WILL get snappier envelopes with it. But only within that engine, they cannot be used in VAST :/ It doesn't seem to be the same code from K2000, because it couldn't do those snappy envs.
Old 2nd April 2019
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
There were some screenshots of the implementation on Forte OS 4.0. This is the same development that's going in PC4. So... probably SY for ya.
I'm totally toast! What a FAKENEWS Kurzweil, i will never forget! 90'eas sounds, yeah right!

Quote:
(On the other hand, FM implementation that Kurzweil did is a separate engine, so you WILL get snappier envelopes with it. But only within that engine, they cannot be used in VAST :/)
Thats quite lame, its 2019, even the DSI PX could implement an entire PC4

Quote:
It doesn't seem to be the same code from K2000, because it couldn't do those snappy envs.
It actually could they apparently opted the engine back then to do just PM no VAST as you mention, BOB forgot his last name talked about that in an interview, they asked Yamaha for permission, Yam newer replied.
Old 2nd April 2019
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klonfocius View Post
Thats quite lame, its 2019, even the DSI PX could implement an entire PC4
without no issues!
Now that's just trolling. PX can't do VAST
Old 2nd April 2019
  #44
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Klonfocius's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Now that's just trolling. PX can't do VAST
PX can do "anything" is a mini PC just as Kronos! You can run PD whatever on that.
Its a PC with PCIe bridge to a FPGA who do the format translation and distributes the sound data.
Old 2nd April 2019
  #45
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EvilDragon's Avatar
But somebody would have to actually program it to do VAST, so it won't happen :P
Old 2nd April 2019
  #46
Old 2nd April 2019
  #47
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Klonfocius's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
But somebody would have to actually program it to do VAST, so it won't happen :P
Yes probably, but VAST is not synthesis method is just a routing method! Anyho PC4 is disappoint.
Its like watching a great porno and my bucket of Viagra got confiscated!
Old 2nd April 2019
  #48
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I'd beg to differ, DSP is a pretty important thing in VAST, and the way some blocks work can be quite specific.
Old 2nd April 2019
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
I'd beg to differ, DSP is a pretty important thing in VAST, and the way some blocks work can be quite specific.
Nope, its just optimized DSP'ing and always was either run on specific ASICs MODX/PC4 or just run on general CPU/FPGA such as PX/Kronos etc. No magic, no special, just as it usually done. Check out the Dream chips long chunks of DSP code run on a specific and efficient DSP ASIC manufactured to a low cost for a specific purpose.
Old 2nd April 2019
  #50
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klonfocius View Post
I havent seen any shows of the PC4, whwre did they do that? And if im DISSAPOINT since they easily can implement it and should! If its only the DX7 then they are just reusing the DX7 code that ran on K2000 and newer implemented back in the days. Now i'm VERY DISAPPOINT!
Well I think there is an FM operator block you can use in VAST so SY99 type sounds should be possible surely? The SY was samples + FM no? Using layering in VAST to impersonate the SY series should be perfectly doable. If I read the FM engine specs right anyway. The DX7 engine is self contained yes but I remember seeing you can use FM blocks as a new oscillator in VAST and that might be a workaround to that SY territory.
Old 2nd April 2019
  #51
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unease's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klonfocius View Post
You are mixing separate things, PhaseModulation process timing is separate from EG and LFO timing as they can be fast or slowly generated dependning of requirement while PM always has to be in +audio range to be of sonic quality. EG and LFO in the SY's are on separate computation chips in hardware not software. We shall wait and see ,if Kurzweil using same old PC3 ASIC DSP's(i assume based on other folks reports) and if they do EG and LFO there we are all toast "again" and their claim of 90ies compatibility is fakenews.
Well that was exactly my point, that the modulation bus (LFOs, envelopes etc) doesn’t need to be fast in order for the synth to support FM since the actual FM (ok PM) is not done through the modulation bus.

I don’t think that the claim that it supports patches from other synths guaranties that they will sound exactly the same. On the other hand, as EvilDragon mentioned, the FM engine might be implemented completely outside of the VAST engine, like the organ emulation. In that case I guess the envelopes might be completely different as well. We shall see!
Old 2nd April 2019
  #52
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FM in Forte OS 4.0/PC4 IS implemented as a separate engine (when you import sysex). You also get FM operator DSP block (2 units) but that one won't get you the snappy envelopes that the separate FM engine has.
Old 2nd April 2019
  #53
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unease's Avatar
That’s a bit strange that they couldn’t integrate the solution into VAST. It’s like they lost all knowledge of how to develop in VAST and just want to leave it as it is!
Old 2nd April 2019
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unease View Post
Well that was exactly my point, that the modulation bus (LFOs, envelopes etc) doesn’t need to be fast in order for the synth to support FM since the actual FM (ok PM) is not done through the modulation bus.
That may be but was not what you said initially.
Quote:
I don’t think that the claim that it supports patches from other synths guaranties that they will sound exactly the same. On the other hand, as EvilDragon mentioned, the FM engine might be implemented completely outside of the VAST engine, like the organ emulation. In that case I guess the envelopes might be completely different as well. We shall see!
I mention that to as old K2000 PM ran outside VAST using VAST computation resources.
Quote:
That’s a bit strange that they couldn’t integrate the solution into VAST. It’s like they lost all knowledge of how to develop in VAST and just want to leave it as it is!
The reason for this most likely lays in how the AICS are structured, the computing resources have to come from some where.
Old 2nd April 2019
  #55
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I'm pretty sure PC4 is using LENA instead of MARA, so FPGA then (they started using LENA on Forte SE).
Old 2nd April 2019
  #56
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Klonfocius's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
You also get FM operator DSP block (2 units) but that one won't get you the snappy envelopes that the separate FM engine has.
That suggest on older versions all EG and LFO and FUN inside VAST runs at a fixed low tick rate and entire VAST block needs reconfig of that tick for faster EG's. From which version did this 2unit block DSP PM become a standard? K2600?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
I'm pretty sure PC4 is using LENA instead of MARA, so FPGA then (they started using LENA on Forte SE).
Yeah, most likely. I wonder what the PFGA does exactly?!
Old 2nd April 2019
  #57
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That just means they could fix the bugs that were unfixable in the ASIC (like for example certain custom algorithms, while possible to wire them in the OS, wouldn't work).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klonfocius View Post
From which version did this 2unit block DSP PM become a standard? K2600?
Kurz never had a dedicated FM block, AFAIK. Up until now in Forte OS 4.0 (and likely PC4 too). PC3 actually had an algorithm created specifically for the FM block, but didn't have the FM block implemented.
Old 2nd April 2019
  #58
Gear Addict
 

Kurzweil sneak an FM engine into their new PC4 production station - gearnews.com



The Kurzweil PC range of performance controller and production station keyboards come stacked with sounds, effects and masses of control. The new PC4 ups the ante with an all-new 6-operator FM engine with the ability to import 80’s/90’s FM SysEx files and more.

Kurzweil PC4
The PC4 is a significant jump from the previous generation. It comes with 2GB of factory Kurzweil sample library with room for another 2GB of user content. It can handle 256 notes of polyphony and there’s this new 6-operator FM synthesizer inside. This adds to the already existing virtual analogue VAST synth engine that came with the earlier keyboards. There are over 1000 presets ready to go.

The control section has been expanded with a row of knobs to compliment the sliders. The comprehensive 16-track sequencer has stepped into riff generation and step sequencing with MIDI CC recording per step and don’t forget the 16 arpeggiators.

The keyboard is 88 note fully-weighted hammer-action with velocity sensitive keys and aftertouch. Although knowing Kurzweil there will be a 76 note and 61 note version with a synth action keyboard along before too long.

That’s about all the detail we have at the moment but it looks like Kurzweil has an interesting machine on their hands.
Old 2nd April 2019
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
That just means they could fix the bugs that were unfixable in the ASIC (like for example certain custom algorithms, while possible to wire them in the OS, wouldn't work).
I assume the OS, or rater RTOS runs on main MCU who then loads the ASIC's or if ASIC's have firmware as part of their sound FLASH booting from there?!

Kurz never had a dedicated FM block, AFAIK. Up until now in Forte OS 4.0 (and likely PC4 too). PC3 actually had an algorithm created specifically for the FM block, but didn't have the FM block implemented.
Not able to follow you there but K2000 had PM block implemented and demoed back in the day but it was never implemented on machines sold to the public due to Yamahas silence as which BOB interpreted as a no. (we can only speculate the why's on their final decisions).

So, its not until Forte OS4 and PC4 there is PM in a block, i assume on the picture you posted is per layer?! Does this suggest like 5layer DX7's and still full polyphony?
Old 2nd April 2019
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klonfocius View Post
The reason for this most likely lays in how the AICS are structured, the computing resources have to come from some where.
Hmm, I would think the processing power should be enough but maybe it just didn’t fit in with the concept of chains of descrete DSP blocks. They need to handle feedback for proper FM so that might be one such problem..
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