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Moog matriarch
Old 19th September 2019
  #1591
Gear Head
 

Sequencer glide bug confirmed by Moog

Update: Got a second e-mail back from Moog tech support confirming the sequencer glide bug I described earlier in the thread. Again, they said it should be able to be fixed in firmware.
Old 19th September 2019
  #1592
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoogRogue View Post
What exactly is the issue? I tested one out and it worked, but I could not retrigger the sustained note. In other words, hitting the initial key for the note being sustained does not retrigger the envelopes.
I’m wondering if there’s a difference in converting the Matriarch’s velocity data over midi verse directly from the keys internally. Also this would help dismiss or confirm whether the Matriarch has a similar bug to that of the Model D re-issue just discussed again earlier today.
Old 19th September 2019
  #1593
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Markyboard View Post
I’m wondering if there’s a difference in converting the Matriarch’s velocity data over midi verse directly from the keys internally. Also this would help dismiss or confirm whether the Matriarch has a similar bug to that of the Model D re-issue just discussed again earlier today.
Ok, I think I understand. I will test more later, but I am pretty sure the answer to this is that the MIDI data is messed up too. I saw someone claim somewhere that the velocity seemed fine when controlling a softsynth, but I really doubt it. I have looked at the velocity values in a MIDI monitor and compared the output from my Yamaha. The numbers I was getting relative to playing style seemed to indicate the same issue. I basically also checked this when I plugged the Matriarch up to the GM over MIDI and patched out the velocity CV from the GM and got the same result. I have not l plugged the GM MIDI out to the Matriarch and tried patching vel CV out from the Matriarch, because based on my experiments with the GM I assume the Matriarch converts the MIDI data wonderfully. I will try turning local off and plug either/both into themselves but I expect the results to be the same.
Old 19th September 2019
  #1594
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkdvb View Post
I would love to hear a comparison ... don't have any ideas on how to do it other than sending the same patch through one & then the other.

YT aside, what are your thoughts between the two? Does the 500 sound even cleaner w/ the better signal path presumably? The plugin control sounds cool but I'm more inclined to do sound design OTB so is that one of the biggest draws about the 500s?

I didn't really know a non-tape delay could sound so amazing ... it's killed any gas I had for a Space Echo but now I'm wondering if I need a 500 delay module (or 2), esp if I already have the Matriarch & the cost is probably cheaper to keep the synth for the delays?
I'll record some stuff and pass it through the Matriarch and my pair of 500 series delays. Without A/B'ing them myself, I couldn't tell you what the differences are. They both sound great to me.

If you haven't heard the 500 series delays, try to avoid them out of respect for your wallet. IMHO they sound absolutely killer. Super silky and natural, and usable in many different ways.

If you mainly do OTB sound design, though, the Matriarch delays are probably better suited for you, because of the CV control. The main purpose of the plugin with the 500 series delay (at least for me) is for recall-ability when mixing. Although you can automate it, of course, as well, and there is a single CV input.
Old 20th September 2019
  #1595
Gear Head
 

Matriarch sustain bug

Quote:
Originally Posted by draig View Post
The one place I had a problem was with the sustain pedal behaving oddly and Moog is looking into it.
I tested the sustain pedal more fully today and identified a few bugs, which I sent to Moog with another video.

The first bug is that once you have depressed the pedal, you can only play each note 1 time. Once you have played a given note 1 time, will no longer react to being played at all any further as long as you hold down the pedal (the pitch will not change to that note, and if you have multitrigger mode engaged, the envelopes will not retrigger).

The second bug is that when you release the pedal, it goes back to the very first note you hit during sustain (you will not be able to hear this if you have glide turned up, but it will still try to go back to the first note, which you can hear if you have glide turned up only a little).

PS all: Please give me time to test the other scenarios described regarding local on/off and such.
Old 20th September 2019
  #1596
Gear Head
 
bucketsofcake's Avatar
 

After waffling back and forth all morning, I finally went ahead and placed an order. I talked to a rep at Guitar Center who said they didn't have any Moogfest editions remaining in warehouse but that they still had five units in store, so I ordered one, which should theoretically ship tomorrow (we'll see, I have a feeling I'm going to end up getting placed on backorder for a standard unit). Either way, same price, and I'm cool waiting a couple of weeks.

I really appreciate everyone's input, and big thanks to Snail for that fantastic video--it really pushed me over the edge. Super excited by the thought that I could have one by next week, but it's Guitar Center, so who knows...
Old 20th September 2019
  #1597
Lives for gear
 
draig's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoogRogue View Post
I tested the sustain pedal more fully today and identified a few bugs, which I sent to Moog with another video.

The first bug is that once you have depressed the pedal, you can only play each note 1 time. Once you have played a given note 1 time, will no longer react to being played at all any further as long as you hold down the pedal (the pitch will not change to that note, and if you have multitrigger mode engaged, the envelopes will not retrigger).

The second bug is that when you release the pedal, it goes back to the very first note you hit during sustain (you will not be able to hear this if you have glide turned up, but it will still try to go back to the first note, which you can hear if you have glide turned up only a little).

PS all: Please give me time to test the other scenarios described regarding local on/off and such.
Aha! The first bug is the one I was finding but I had not figured out it was because a note could only be played once... well done!
Old 20th September 2019
  #1598
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkdvb View Post
I've been having trouble getting the attenuvertors to work the way I expect, which is to output no voltage in the centered the position. It seems like the moment I patch in an attenuverter, there is some sort of voltage or offset that's sent to that parameter .. so like if I'm patching the cutoff freq, the filter always gets brighter even if I have the attenuverter centered at 0. Same thing if I patch from my Quadratt in either uni or +/- mode.

Anyone else experiencing this? Am I missing something obvious? Worked fine on the Grandmother.
I checked this. As Draig mentioned, it should only happen if you are patching out of the bottom left attenuator (set to zero) and the top left attenuator is set to anything other than zero and has nothing plugged into its output. (The left two work as a mixer when there is no output plugged into the top one.) Try setting them all to zero first and patch out of each of them in turn. Should work.
Old 20th September 2019
  #1599
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoogRogue View Post
I reported the sequencer tie problem to Moog and they requested a video. Based on that they were able to reproduce the bug and confirmed it is a problem with the sequencer. They said it will be fixed in a future firmware update. I am still waiting on confirmation of the sequencer glide problem, but I am confident now it is also reproduce able.

Thanks, apessino, for confirming the octave shift bug. I have also reported that and waiting on confirmation from Moog. After more experimentation I have discovered it only affects oscillators 2, 3, and 4.
.
Yeah I spoke too soon on the ties working in mono mode. Just happened that the patch I was sequencing had a longish attack time & combined w/ the delay gloriously smearing everything, the envelope retrigger wasn't that notice. Shorten that attack time & you def get two note triggers.

Can anyone confirm if Moog ever fixed the local off bugs w/the Grandmother? I think Moog just figures if thr synth sounds good enough, they'll sweat the other stuff later or never. I'm not going to hold my breath on them fixing these controller/sequencer bugs.
Old 20th September 2019
  #1600
Quote:
Originally Posted by bucketsofcake View Post
After waffling back and forth all morning, I finally went ahead and placed an order. I talked to a rep at Guitar Center who said they didn't have any Moogfest editions remaining in warehouse but that they still had five units in store, so I ordered one, which should theoretically ship tomorrow (we'll see, I have a feeling I'm going to end up getting placed on backorder for a standard unit). Either way, same price, and I'm cool waiting a couple of weeks.

I really appreciate everyone's input, and big thanks to Snail for that fantastic video--it really pushed me over the edge. Super excited by the thought that I could have one by next week, but it's Guitar Center, so who knows...
Congratulations and I hope it arrives soon!

And thanks for the kind comment. It was a quick thing that I just threw together, but I was so excited. I think you're going to love it and hope you do.
Old 20th September 2019
  #1601
Comparison of Moog Matriarch delay to MF-104m and Moog 500 series analog delay

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkdvb View Post
I would love to hear a comparison ... don't have any ideas on how to do it other than sending the same patch through one & then the other.
Okay, so I was curious myself about the delay comparison, so I did a quick run through today and took the time to record it properly (as well as I could) and film it. So here's the video:



First Matriarch, then MF-104m, then Moog 500 series analog delay.

Pretty straightforward as to how I did it, but a few notes. I recorded the Matriarch in stereo playing the sequence while fiddling with its stereo delay as the first take. Then a take of the Matriarch playing the same sequence but through the MF-104 which is in mono. That by itself makes a big difference (stereo vs mono) but there are also very clear sonic differences. I kept the drive pretty low because I didn't want that affecting the sound too much, but I didn't turn it to zero, because I doubt many people use the MF-104 that way. It's about 9 o'clock. Didn't use the modulation until the last few seconds.

For the third take, because my 500 series delay is in a rack and permanently routed to my interface and mixing set-up, I just recorded the dry Matriarch sequence first. Then in my DAW I sent that to the 500 series delay, and adjusted everything live with the panel knobs. They are sync'd so delay time is copied from one to the other -- but not everything, so it's not perfect. When mixing, I usually keep them in one spot and adjust from the DAW plugin so it's not a problem.

I tried to level match as best I could. Still, I think there are very distinctive differences. It was interesting, for sure! I have my own thoughts, but I'd be curious what other people think.
Old 20th September 2019
  #1602
Here for the gear
Does anyone know how much the price on the grandmother was reduced if you compare the initial price when it was introduced to the market to the pricing on it now?

How much time into the production of the Grandmother did the price reduction occur? Was it after a year?
Old 20th September 2019
  #1603
Lives for gear
 
markwalkerjr's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Portray View Post
Does anyone know how much the price on the grandmother was reduced if you compare the initial price when it was introduced to the market to the pricing on it now?

How much time into the production of the Grandmother did the price reduction occur? Was it after a year?
$100. Not sure in the timing.
Old 20th September 2019
  #1604
Here for the gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by markwalkerjr View Post
$100. Not sure in the timing.
Okay, thanks! That was not much. Not a reason to wait for that at least.
Old 20th September 2019
  #1605
Gear Head
 
bucketsofcake's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Portray View Post
Does anyone know how much the price on the grandmother was reduced if you compare the initial price when it was introduced to the market to the pricing on it now?

How much time into the production of the Grandmother did the price reduction occur? Was it after a year?
I actually don't believe there's been a Grandmother price reduction yet. I had one on preorder at Sweetwater and the price was $899. I cancelled that preorder and bought one with gift cards at Musician's Friend this spring but the price was still $899. It's currently listed at $899 at all the big online retailers.

However, the last time Moog did their bi-annual sale the GM was $799 at all the major retailers. The previous sales this wasn't the case (i.e. most Moog products marked down $100 but GM still full price).

I'd wager the first time the Matriarch will go on sale for $1799 will be spring 2021. All depending on what happens with tariffs and whatnot.
Old 20th September 2019
  #1606
Gear Head
 
bucketsofcake's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snail View Post
Okay, so I was curious myself about the delay comparison, so I did a quick run through today and took the time to record it properly (as well as I could) and film it. So here's the video:



First Matriarch, then MF-104m, then Moog 500 series analog delay.

Pretty straightforward as to how I did it, but a few notes. I recorded the Matriarch in stereo playing the sequence while fiddling with its stereo delay as the first take. Then a take of the Matriarch playing the same sequence but through the MF-104 which is in mono. That by itself makes a big difference (stereo vs mono) but there are also very clear sonic differences. I kept the drive pretty low because I didn't want that affecting the sound too much, but I didn't turn it to zero, because I doubt many people use the MF-104 that way. It's about 9 o'clock. Didn't use the modulation until the last few seconds.

For the third take, because my 500 series delay is in a rack and permanently routed to my interface and mixing set-up, I just recorded the dry Matriarch sequence first. Then in my DAW I sent that to the 500 series delay, and adjusted everything live with the panel knobs. They are sync'd so delay time is copied from one to the other -- but not everything, so it's not perfect. When mixing, I usually keep them in one spot and adjust from the DAW plugin so it's not a problem.

I tried to level match as best I could. Still, I think there are very distinctive differences. It was interesting, for sure! I have my own thoughts, but I'd be curious what other people think.
Another great video. Listened to the whole thing, here are my thoughts:

1. The onboard delay sounds excellent, a more than serviceable delay. I was really skeptical about the spring reverb on the Grandmother, but was amazed at how it expanded the sonic texture of the entire instrument. I think the Matriarch's delay will prove very similar.

2. MF104: this unit sounds a bit darker and better to my ear than the onboard delay and definitely offers the most modulation perimeters of any of the options demoed. I noticed you didn't play with any of the waveforms on the LFO, which can cause things to get even crazier.

3. 500 Series: this sounds absolutely glorious. I had opened up another tab and was reading an article while listening, and I actually switched back over to the video when that feedback started roaring through. Just looked up the prices and died a little inside.
Old 20th September 2019
  #1607
Gear Head
 

Dang! Yesterday (Thursday Sept 19) at about 3:30pm CST there were still Moogfest editions at Guitar Center’s website that you could add to your cart. When I finally placed an order 2 hours later, they were all gone (confirmed with a phone call). I JUST missed it!

Thankfully Vintage King had a regular one in LA, and it was the last one from their first shipment of 22. Heck yes.
Old 20th September 2019
  #1608
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkdvb View Post
Yeah I spoke too soon on the ties working in mono mode. Just happened that the patch I was sequencing had a longish attack time & combined w/ the delay gloriously smearing everything, the envelope retrigger wasn't that notice. Shorten that attack time & you def get two note triggers.

Can anyone confirm if Moog ever fixed the local off bugs w/the Grandmother? I think Moog just figures if thr synth sounds good enough, they'll sweat the other stuff later or never. I'm not going to hold my breath on them fixing these controller/sequencer bugs.
I was trying to sequence the triangle wave "bassline" from the Metroid title theme, trying to tie 4 of the same note together just to make it longer, when I first noticed the tie issue. It kept getting interrupted at every tie. The issue can be hidden if you have sustain turned up, as that will "connect" the notes.

I have confidence that Moog will be able to fix all the features that already work on the Grandmother. That includes ties, glide, sustain and keyboard octave shift. Dunno when the next firmware update will come out though.

I am still not 100% clear on what the GM local off issues were. Are you referring to the issue where KB, Gate and Vel CV outs are not sent from the sequencer when local off is engaged? I found some threads online from May saying that the behavior still does not match the description in the manual. I am really hoping for a new firmware update for GM to add retrigger, at least, and hopefully any other remaining issues for GM will be addressed then.
Old 20th September 2019
  #1609
Quote:
Originally Posted by bucketsofcake View Post
3. 500 Series: this sounds absolutely glorious. I had opened up another tab and was reading an article while listening, and I actually switched back over to the video when that feedback started roaring through. Just looked up the prices and died a little inside.
Thanks for the comments!

Yeah, the 500 series delay was briefly being “blown out” for $699 ea when there were not too many left. Seemed incredibly expensive at the time but I’m so glad I got the pair. I just looked up the used prices now and wow!
Old 20th September 2019
  #1610
I like the 104, but that onboard delay sounds like something truly special. The 104 does the distorted regeneration really well, but I find it's limited and a sort of one trick pony (I own one).
Old 20th September 2019
  #1611
Deleted bbe5aef
Guest
Hello all, my Matriarch arrived two days ago. Really never been so pleased with a synth before in my life. Essentially rid me of all GAS except for the Voltage Research Lab which should pair nicely with it. Every sound I milk from it is easily usable and sounds amazing.

I have a bit of an envelope problem though (I think?) which likely can't be fixed by firmware updates? I turned all oscillators to 0%, filter to 100%, ADSR all to 0% and I still get a click. It's super noticeable in almost every patch I do where the filter isn't wide open. I have a Moogfest edition, serial number 0100 so I'd be really disappointed to have to exchange it -____- Anyone else have a super clicky (not necessarily snappy) envelope? I tested in VCA split as well and both envelopes do it. Issue or just how it is? I can't get rid of the click unless attack is at 5% or higher which already makes the sound have a bit of a slow attack, not ideal for plucks or anything besides brass and pads.... I tested a factory preset from the booklet, Rubber Bass and the click is very noticeable with headphones, as well as on speakers but you have to be a bit closer to the speaker. Once you close the filter it's very obvious though.

Edit : I emailed Moog yesterday, waiting on a response and will update. Just wanted to see if anyone else had any noticeable envelope clicking to the point of affecting patches.
Old 20th September 2019
  #1612
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinital View Post
Hello all, my Matriarch arrived two days ago. Really never been so pleased with a synth before in my life. Essentially rid me of all GAS except for the Voltage Research Lab which should pair nicely with it. Every sound I milk from it is easily usable and sounds amazing.

I have a bit of an envelope problem though (I think?) which likely can't be fixed by firmware updates? I turned all oscillators to 0%, filter to 100%, ADSR all to 0% and I still get a click. It's super noticeable in almost every patch I do where the filter isn't wide open. I have a Moogfest edition, serial number 0100 so I'd be really disappointed to have to exchange it -____- Anyone else have a super clicky (not necessarily snappy) envelope? I tested in VCA split as well and both envelopes do it. Issue or just how it is? I can't get rid of the click unless attack is at 5% or higher which already makes the sound have a bit of a slow attack, not ideal for plucks or anything besides brass and pads.... I tested a factory preset from the booklet, Rubber Bass and the click is very noticeable with headphones, as well as on speakers but you have to be a bit closer to the speaker. Once you close the filter it's very obvious though.

Edit : I emailed Moog yesterday, waiting on a response and will update. Just wanted to see if anyone else had any noticeable envelope clicking to the point of affecting patches.
I think this is just how the envelopes work, though I can compare mine with my Grandmother when I get home.
Old 20th September 2019
  #1613
Deleted bbe5aef
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoogRogue View Post
I think this is just how the envelopes work, though I can compare mine with my Grandmother when I get home.
None of the envelopes in the analog synths I've used have had such a noticeable click on the attack. If that's just how this specific envelope works it's a different story.
Old 20th September 2019
  #1614
Lives for gear
 
draig's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted bbe5aef View Post
Hello all, my Matriarch arrived two days ago. Really never been so pleased with a synth before in my life. Essentially rid me of all GAS except for the Voltage Research Lab which should pair nicely with it. Every sound I milk from it is easily usable and sounds amazing.
I'm also easily finding lots of useable sounds!

Agreed... the Voltage Research Laboratory should complement the Matriarch well... look forward to it arriving!
Old 20th September 2019
  #1615
Here for the gear
Regarding other modules to connect....

I am new to modular synthesis, and the Matriarch is my first foray into this. What are people's favorite modules and what are people planning on connecting to their Matriarch's?
Old 20th September 2019
  #1616
Gear Maniac
 
kwaping's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by skonford View Post
Regarding other modules to connect....

I am new to modular synthesis, and the Matriarch is my first foray into this. What are people's favorite modules and what are people planning on connecting to their Matriarch's?
Funny coincidence, this was just posted in the Grandmother thread...

Moog Grandmother Semi-Modular
Old 20th September 2019
  #1617
Lives for gear
 
drxcm's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted bbe5aef View Post
Hello all, my Matriarch arrived two days ago. Really never been so pleased with a synth before in my life. Essentially rid me of all GAS except for the Voltage Research Lab which should pair nicely with it. Every sound I milk from it is easily usable and sounds amazing.

I have a bit of an envelope problem though (I think?) which likely can't be fixed by firmware updates? I turned all oscillators to 0%, filter to 100%, ADSR all to 0% and I still get a click. It's super noticeable in almost every patch I do where the filter isn't wide open. I have a Moogfest edition, serial number 0100 so I'd be really disappointed to have to exchange it -____- Anyone else have a super clicky (not necessarily snappy) envelope? I tested in VCA split as well and both envelopes do it. Issue or just how it is? I can't get rid of the click unless attack is at 5% or higher which already makes the sound have a bit of a slow attack, not ideal for plucks or anything besides brass and pads.... I tested a factory preset from the booklet, Rubber Bass and the click is very noticeable with headphones, as well as on speakers but you have to be a bit closer to the speaker. Once you close the filter it's very obvious though.

Edit : I emailed Moog yesterday, waiting on a response and will update. Just wanted to see if anyone else had any noticeable envelope clicking to the point of affecting patches.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted bbe5aef View Post
None of the envelopes in the analog synths I've used have had such a noticeable click on the attack. If that's just how this specific envelope works it's a different story.
The issue here is most likely not the envelope, but instead what it is controlling, ie the VCA, or whatever signal is at the VCA input.

If it occurs with no (ie oscillators at 0) audio input to the VCA (ie oscillators at zero), then something is going through the VCA. Perhaps there is some subtle low level background noise, or even a low DC signal leaking through.

If the envelope opens the VCA instantaneously then the audio output is going from 0 V to x V instantaneously which produces a click.

Does the Matriatch produce a click if you patch a dummy cable into one of it's VCA inputs, and the envelope to the CV? (Not sure if it's normallling prevents the oscillators from being completely disconnected)
Old 20th September 2019
  #1618
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted bbe5aef View Post
None of the envelopes in the analog synths I've used have had such a noticeable click on the attack. If that's just how this specific envelope works it's a different story.
I just checked at home. I get 0 sound (no click) if I have everything turned down in the mixer, filter wide open, and envelopes at 0 for every parameter (the settings you described). Grandmother behaves the same.

I only get the click if I turn something up in the mixer.

You sure you have nothing plugged into the input on the back?

If all is as you have described, it sounds like an issue.
Old 21st September 2019
  #1619
Deleted bbe5aef
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoogRogue View Post
I just checked at home. I get 0 sound (no click) if I have everything turned down in the mixer, filter wide open, and envelopes at 0 for every parameter (the settings you described). Grandmother behaves the same.

I only get the click if I turn something up in the mixer.

You sure you have nothing plugged into the input on the back?

If all is as you have described, it sounds like an issue.
Damn, just my luck to get such a nice serial number and one of the last available Moogfest editions, and be stuck with sending it in for service or exchanging it for a non-Moogfest, non serial number 0100

Oh well. Must be patient, this synth is beyond worth it. I simply cannot create a patch I like without the filter open far enough to where the click is not noticeable right now so I have to choose.

Thanks for the help all. Scoured the internet while at the gym and yes, does seem to be a VCA issue, read it on multiple forums (about other synths' clicks).
Old 21st September 2019
  #1620
Lives for gear
 
draig's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoogRogue View Post
I just checked at home. I get 0 sound (no click) if I have everything turned down in the mixer, filter wide open, and envelopes at 0 for every parameter (the settings you described). Grandmother behaves the same.
Same for me... no click or sound at all
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