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ISLA Instruments S2400
Old 1 week ago
  #1141
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xanax's Avatar
cool you've been there & done that... doesn't change the fact i'm just telling it how it is concerning the SP swing.

i'm actually quoting Dave Rossum on the jitter, you know the guy that invented the OG machine. you go ahead and argue with that.

..and yes real heads that actually own an SP1200, LinnDrum, 808/909 etc know what the deal is with their groove vs modern drum machines / sequencers.

96 PPQ is fine. It's the resolution the brain of my studio uses: MPC 3000. But the 3K doesn't swing like a SP. Again facts.

..and last time I checked this product was an SP homage, not an MPC 60/3K one..? but whatever really, it is what it is.

BTW, the Mirage wasn't known for it's swing, Ensoniq sequencers were horrible actually, might as well say you owned a Speak n Spell. That **** is beyond irrelevant.. like i said ignorance is bliss
Old 1 week ago
  #1142
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shreddoggie's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by elcct View Post
It's not only the PPQN but also the jitter. Even when there is no swing, the notes will not hit the ideal spot. The newer sequencers would be more precise in that department one would assume being a bit more "lifeless".
This is incorrect on several fronts.
Please do not spread misinformation if you don't know.
Thanks.
Old 1 week ago
  #1143
Quote:
Originally Posted by shreddoggie View Post
This is incorrect on several fronts.
Please do not spread misinformation if you don't know.
Thanks.
I would be happy to hear your reasoning, a blank statement doesn't really help us in any way. Can you please elaborate? Did you measure it?

Cheers.
Old 1 week ago
  #1144
Old 1 week ago
  #1145
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Bignatius's Avatar
Tits.
Old 1 week ago
  #1146
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradholland View Post
Whats that lofi thingy you got there ?

Is it the 12 bit resampling process or an extra distortion fx ?
Old 1 week ago
  #1147
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cramseur's Avatar
I need my unit NOW!
Old 1 week ago
  #1148
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xanax's Avatar
Ok it looks like swing on 8ths gives it indeed that drunken slop! I like how both amount & note swing can be set individually.

that quantize shift is also pretty neat. simple yet effective way to micro shift. curious about the LoFi setting as well. Sample frequency rate reduction?
Old 1 week ago
  #1149
Lo-Fi turns of interpolation.
And yeah... 60% swing makes me moist..
Old 6 days ago
  #1150
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by shreddoggie View Post
This is incorrect on several fronts.
Please do not spread misinformation if you don't know.
Thanks.
Please explain where I am wrong, it will be helpful for me and others.
Old 6 days ago
  #1151
Gear Addict
You can tell a successful product when GS start bickering amongst themselves rather than at machine/developer
Old 6 days ago
  #1152
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rockreid's Avatar
 

Is each individual Voice capable of being set to Lo-Fi 12 bit mode or hi-rez mode in the same Kit?
Old 6 days ago
  #1153
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shreddoggie's Avatar
The jitter is ok / human / nice myth has been litigated over and over and over.
It is a myth.
Jitter is bad.
ALWAYS.
It is true that if it is tiny enough you don't hear (feel) it.
This is why the devices with the least jitter are the most revered and called out as the ones with the most funky swing.
Roger Linn explains this well when asked about the legendary MPC swing of his OG designs.

"In my drum machines, I wrote the software in such a way that the notes play exactly at the correct timing location. And for the included drum sounds, I insured that the beginnings of the samples were closely trimmed to minimize any delay at the start. I’ve heard lots of theories over the years about other timing tricks, like introducing random timing variations into the notes of the beat, or delaying the snare on 2 and 4, but I’ve never found these to do much good. In fact, I’d suggest that if the note dynamics and swing are right, then the groove works best when the notes are played at exactly the perfect time slots."

~Roger Linn

https://www.attackmagazine.com/featu...ic-mpc-timing/

Here is the problem with jitter: It is RANDOM.
Some notes are early, some are late without any pattern. No intent.

Although humans are indeed not ever anywhere near to being as consistent as a machine there are a couple of important differences.
1. With humans every single articulation has variation in timbre, volume, envelope. Look at the waveform of a fantastic guitar player playing repeated quarter notes. Every single one is unique. Same with a drummer playing quarter notes on the snare. Put these into an actual phrase and the variation increases.
2. These players will never hit the beats as well as a machine does but look where they 'miss' - these correspond to the timbre changes in (1) to some extent and (more important) ebb and flow with respect to things like where we are in the insinuated phrase. Lets says we are playing groups of 8 bars, even though we are very accurate players, our inaccuracies will correspond to where we are in these groups of 8. This is emblematic with good players of instruments: Look where 1 is in the first bar as opposed to the 5th. Do they rush as we move through the 8th bar on the way to the turnaround? Does 3 have an alternating place every other bar? When you hear someone as 'so funky' this is why. This is why and how a great band sounds so great. They have subconsciously agreed upon these subtle variations - with a crap band it sticks out when they have no such agreement or when someone misses.

Back to our machines. They do none of this. We can program all of it in should we have the patience, but what were we measuring the players above against? A perfect grid - not an 'almost' one. With a machine do we want to meticulously recreate such a nuanced performance against a wobbly grid? Do we account for this by lessening our offsets knowing we will encounter additional unplanned ones courtesy of the machine? Nein danke.

When we use the machine for truly machine music with the different vibe of less/zero variation in timbre, and all notes living on grid points, we have chosen a very different style with regard to rhythm. The jitter is our enemy. While we may not notice a little bit (legendary rock solid machines) it is truly an error that is within tolerance. It is not adding anything.

Personal anecdote:
I have been at this a long time. I have been making house and trance for a label and playing my tunes at parties since the 90s. I am not big time at all but I have sold enough records to get a few nice checks and have played some big shows on the main stage. I have used every manner of gear and rig imaginable.

When I first got a USB midi interface I thought something was broken because it was so bad. This led me to sample accurate lock of DAW to HW. Using sample accurate lock has resulted in me viewing waveforms on the DAW - waveforms that are recorded from HW devices. The nature of this relationship is that things don't start precisely together: latency. Tracks need to get nudged to line up. This is when you feel the jitter. 'Have I shifted it too early? Too late? Are there bum notes in there somewhere? Something FEELS wrong. One can claim 'theoretically' that a little bit is nice but in practice it never is. It is cumulative. Imagine you built a house with 1 part not perfectly straight or level, and then the next one and so on. Pieces fit less and less until its just a blurry sloppy mess. Unless your music is a single drum machine solo you really ought to care and always want less (jitter)

Lets say I have a house tune with very standard quarter note kick and bass. When either is a tiny bit late or early it is a sore thumb. I hear (feel) it and look - lo and behold there it is. That groove that aint quite working is there on my screen in living color. Its not human-like, its just wrong. I know every one of my devices with regard to this kind of test to the point that it affects my choices. I own things I refuse to use and have sold things for just this reason.

With respect to the question of, "Why then did we not care or notice back in the day when we couldn't just microscope waveforms?" I don't have a definitive answer but I have a couple thoughts.
1. Almost no one is born this way. I have spent thousands of hours with traditional instruments and metronomes. I have made music with sloppy timing I didn't notice - it is a progressively acquired skill. Hardly anyone is going to start making electronic music and in 6 months be highly sensitive to rhythm.
2. The audience will never be so critically sensitive. So why do you care? I have come to understand that subliminally they actually do get it - they may not consciously be able to identify it, but we know this already. I dare anyone to take a tune to a gig and play it in the main room when they know the groove has (jitter) indiscretions. You won't do it - you'd be a fool to do so. You lose your crowd and its really hard to get them back "This DJ sucks" You have a Saturday night job at the coolest club in town what do you spin? The most wickedly bangin mind-numbingly relentless stuff you have so you don't have to explain to the bored dancers that the one they didn't like as much was 'more human' - especially since it wasn't, it was just less solid.
3. How many tunes form back in the day might have been hits but failed due to such problems? We know the legendary ones, made before we measured waveforms with microscopes, but we know the answer here too. How many of those legendary hits have wobbly clocks? Good producers got it right, made solid tunes, and those tunes have lasted.
4. Of course there are exceptions. Their existence proves the rule because they are exceptional rather than common. My guitar students used to tell me "Jimi couldn't read music" and I would always reply, "... and when you can play like Jimi you won't have to either" - You use every opportunity to make what you do better, improve every facet, avail yourself of every advantage. If someone wants to insist that a little 'loosens things up in a groovy / human / desirable way' I will not consider them stupid or talent-less but rather understand that it something one acquires a sensitivity to (just like all musical skills) and this is part of the lifelong quest to always be improving. I do take issue with people who make inaccurate claims based on wishful thinking - things are rarely how we want them to be just because it is what we want.
Old 6 days ago
  #1154
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Bignatius's Avatar
Love that dude. ^
Old 6 days ago
  #1155
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bignatius View Post
Love that dude. ^
lol...the 'heads' wont be happy
Old 6 days ago
  #1156
Ever played or hired a session musician that doesnt understand a groove ? That's that guy right there. Technically great, musically off.

People from 90's hip-hop genre were and still are after the swing and revere of Dilla's Natural off beat unquantized drum programming. because its random from the beginning till the end.

As RJD2 said 2 weeks ago in one of his live on Facebook about a Jazz drummer that was always off on his recording '' As a break digger, you always rejoice when you find a break with life out of syncopated rhythm'' . Thats the beauty of finding Random.

Jitter isnt appearant but you get a feel you cant explain when playing certain instrument. My ASR-10 introduce a ish ton of it and it also feel way different then my former MPC3000. Both are great and you simply dont get the same feel when you try to program a beat on a pc or ipad. Presonus understood that and introduced the ''humanize'' fonction on their sequencer that randomize the rhythm. This feature doesnt ''agree to be out of sync'' with other track at the same time.

Im not after a jitter filled sampler but I do understand that it is part of the charm of certain machine. The beauty is that there's plenty of other machine that are a lot less pronounced on that mater and there's availability for everyone.

I'm not expecting the S2400 to be Sloppy like an early 90's sequencer in that department.
Old 6 days ago
  #1157
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xanax's Avatar
Actually jitter isn't always random... as Not All Jitter is Created Equal:

Random jitter
Random Jitter, also called Gaussian jitter, is unpredictable electronic timing noise. Random jitter typically follows a normal distribution[5][6] due to being caused by thermal noise in an electrical circuit or due to the central limit theorem. The central limit theorem states that composite effect of many uncorrelated noise sources, regardless of the distributions, approaches a normal distribution.


Deterministic jitter
Deterministic jitter is a type of clock or data signal jitter that is predictable and reproducible. The peak-to-peak value of this jitter is bounded, and the bounds can easily be observed and predicted. Deterministic jitter has a known non-normal distribution. Deterministic jitter can either be correlated to the data stream (data-dependent jitter) or uncorrelated to the data stream (bounded uncorrelated jitter). Examples of data-dependent jitter are duty-cycle dependent jitter (also known as duty-cycle distortion) and intersymbol interference.


Total jitter
n BER
6.4 10−10
6.7 10−11
7 10−12
7.3 10−13
7.6 10−14
Total jitter (T) is the combination of random jitter (R) and deterministic jitter (D) and is computed in the context to a required bit error rate (BER) for the system:[8]

T = Dpeak-to-peak + 2nRrms,
in which the value of n is based on the BER required of the link.


I warned yall this stuff gets pretty nerdy.. anyways like I said previously some sequencers have high random jitter which is aweful and a plague, others such as the SP1200 have low steady jitter, which according to Dave Rossum was left there to emulate the loose strike of a tight yet human drummer.

Bottom line, there are different types of jitter and amounts. Some good, some bad.
The SP1200 has the good kind.

Edit: LowHiss the creator of the 1:1 eSPi 1200 software emu told me early on:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Low Hiss View Post
@ xanax about the Sequencer, I do agree and it's something I'll try to carefully model. Dave Rossum said in the interview about the SP on youtube that jitter is about 2ms. The swing is an important part too, I will record my own templates and make sure my sequencer matches. I have laid down the foundations of the code for the 24ppq sequencer and quantizing
So yeah I'm sorry to say it again and I mean this with no offense but real heads know what the deal is.. of course only die hard purists care about this type of stuff. It's the sequencer equivalent to oscillator slop. Some folks care about it, some folks don't. some folks want it, some don't. It's just nice to have the option IMO.

Last edited by xanax; 6 days ago at 11:15 PM..
Old 6 days ago
  #1158
Old 6 days ago
  #1159
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xanax's Avatar
Saturday Night.. 3AM here in France.. here's a 2h mix of local raw SP tunes circa 2000-2003:


Neighbours beware some bangers in there
Old 6 days ago
  #1160
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Bignatius's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by xanax View Post
Saturday Night.. 3AM here in France.. here's a 2h mix of local raw SP tunes circa 2000-2003:


Neighbours beware some bangers in there
Whereabouts (in France) are you?

I haven't been everywhere but have seen a bunch of the country. Aside from the obvious Paris and its tourist spots, which are cool, I particularly liked the forest of Fontainebleau, Grenoble, Orange, Vaison la Romaine, bits of Metz, and the northern coast past (West of?) Normandy, all over really, such a beautiful country, so much history/culture.
Old 6 days ago
  #1161
Here for the gear
 

Time to nip this jitter nonsense in the bud.

"SP 1200-The Art and the Science" book is by heads, for heads. How many times does jitter come up? As far as I can tell, zero times.

SP1200 DX Army forum is the forum for SP heads. How many times has jitter come up in thousands of posts? Twice. Neither time is anyone saying this is the secret sauce of the SP 1200. One person is talking about an entirely different thing (vinyl) and the other person is complaining about his SP doesn’t cooperate with Cubase. So that's two strikes for the "real heads" argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xanax View Post
others such as the SP1200 have low steady jitter, which according to Dave Rossum was left there to emulate the loose strike of a tight yet human drummer.
Listen to the video - Rossum says they found human drummers can do actually better than the SP 1200. They decided on something they thought was good enough. There’s no emulation.

(Mis)Quoting Rossum like he is some kind of jitter Messiah is also weird. He is an engineer - he made an engineering decision that the given amount was tolerable (but not as good as a good human drummer). It’s not the secret sauce of the SP 1200. There’s nothing unique about the loose but tight strike (what does that even mean) as we can see by reading InnerClock.

Fact: InnerClock reports the Elektron Digitakt as having less jitter than E-MU SP1200 https://www.innerclocksystems.com/litmus
Fact: No mysterious group of self-professed heads rates the Digitakt due to jitter.
Fact: InnerClock reports the Korg Volca Beats as having less jitter than E-MU SP1200
Fact: No mysterious group of self-professed heads rates the Korg Volca Beats due to jitter.
Conclusion: If you are really serious thinking that any kind of secret sauce comes from the SP 1200 jitter, or that “real heads know”, then enjoy your perspective. Facts go otherwise, and you may want to start rocking a Volca Beats.
Old 6 days ago
  #1162
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xanax's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bignatius View Post
Whereabouts (in France) are you?

I haven't been everywhere but have seen a bunch of the country. Aside from the obvious Paris and its tourist spots, which are cool, I particularly liked the forest of Fontainebleau, Grenoble, Orange, Vaison la Romaine, bits of Metz, and the northern coast past (West of?) Normandy, all over really, such a beautiful country, so much history/culture.
I'm on the Riviera right now (Nice) but generally based in Paris. Kinda hard to circulate atm, country is zone locked. Can't complain though with the Mediterranean 5mn away

@ Spicis : SP1200 DX Army member since... early 2000s? That place is still alive?

I didn't say the jitter was the "secret sauce". It certainly is part of the equation.

Again there are different types of jitter.

I own a few innerclock devices btw. I've even helped Dave with some of his litmus tests.

Anyways I've got a couple classic drum machines & modern ones. None swing like an SP.
Old 6 days ago
  #1163
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Bignatius's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by xanax View Post
I'm on the Riviera right now (Nice) but generally based in Paris. Kinda hard to circulate atm, country is zone locked. Can't complain though with the Mediterranean 5mn away
Nice (Nice). I never got south of Vaison la Rom, but I've no doubt I'd like it down there. So pretty.

Work has you down there?
Old 6 days ago
  #1164
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xanax's Avatar
Business & Pleasure
Old 6 days ago
  #1165
Jdilla is great. But I don’t think he’s *that* offbeat. It really sounds like he played 8th note swing beats. It’s all subjective but I like things tight. Jitter isn’t why people like the sp-1200- it’s the drop sample and the limitation.
Old 6 days ago
  #1166
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xanax's Avatar
Early Dilla was SP but he "graduated" to the MPC60/3000. He'd often turn off quantize all together. Dude was sick on drums.

The jitter on the SP is pretty much an unknown fact. You have to go in and analyze/calculate pattern data to even know its there. We're only talking 2ms. The SP is VERY tight.

Even the 24PPQ sequencer. Most people don't care, they only think of the aliasing. I'm only bringing this stuff up as an SP nut and since I've actually pre-ordered a S2400. YMMV.

Btw, I'm very content with the way things are turning out from Brad's last video. No complaints.
Old 6 days ago
  #1167
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Bignatius's Avatar
GS needs more Dilla talk.

Damu, too.

Pete Rock and Madlib, even, and ten others.
Old 6 days ago
  #1168
I dont think dilla's off beat either but he's certainly random as in ''no quantization'' in many of his drum programmed beats.

As I pointed before, the ASR jitter is ''horrible'' ( as in , a lot longer then the MPC 3000 or SP1200 for that matter.) I also find that ''feel'' on early Al the Chemist instrumentals even though its a lot more straight on rhythms.

Randomness is a beautiful part of music and its quite often what unconsciously people are after in electronic base music. It bring the human feel to a robotic rhythm.

It would be impossible to prove that the non linearity of repetition bring a better feel to most human being as it would need quite a huge database of people being studied....which I dont think will happen anytime soon.

What we know for a fact is that there's genre where the hypnotic part of tight repetitive rhythm get people to really get into the music I.e. House.

As for Hip hop inspired music, swing is mostly what people talk about and that can be linked to jitter, be it human or machine based.

Now we can talk in depth about the different branch of rap instrumentals that incorporated electronic drum machine but for the most part, the root or true school was based off of drum breaks that were definitely not perfectly timed...again as a jitter/swing/offbeat pattern that grew through it.

One liking it or not is not to be discussed, thats personal taste. Denying it on the other hand would be avoiding researchable facts.
Old 5 days ago
  #1169
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xanax's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicis View Post
Listen to the video - Rossum says they found human drummers can do actually better than the SP 1200. They decided on something they thought was good enough. There’s no emulation.

(Mis)Quoting Rossum like he is some kind of jitter Messiah is also weird. He is an engineer - he made an engineering decision that the given amount was tolerable (but not as good as a good human drummer). It’s not the secret sauce of the SP 1200. There’s nothing unique about the loose but tight strike (what does that even mean) as we can see by reading InnerClock.
There's no emulation?

The company was called E-mu and the SP predecessor named The Drumulator for a reason.

I didn't misquote Rossum, neither did I claim he was a "jitter messiah".

He and his team however did find that a low amount of steady jitter (amongst a few other things such as 24PPQ & specific swing values) was acceptable sequencer specs within the concept of giving you a close feel to a human drummer. The SP & Drumulator that came before it as its name imply.. were meant to emulate.. a drummer. FACTS.

Now wether or not this is relevant to you is an entirely different subjective matter.
Old 5 days ago
  #1170
Gear Addict
These recent threads are certainly giving me the jitters......Stick with whatever voodoo works for you and move on pleeeeeeease
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